1. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by Xiao_shin
My bad. What I meant to say is about \$160 per day based on \$17 per hour, working 9 hours.

If you have work for 20 days, 1 wedding took up 2.5 days with editing inclusive. 1 month can earn 3.2K.

The wedding album is selling at \$300? How come so expensive?
Any accountant worth his salt will tell u to take \$3.2k x 3 = \$9.6k to be ur min target. Else don't go into the biz.

2. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by shinken
I think the confusion stems from the fact that someone suggested the charge to be \$16/hr in order to feed a family. So for 10hrs in 1 wedding, it's \$160. 20AD clients would be needed to earn \$3200. But even for 20 shoots per month, the charge cannot be \$16/hr. Rather, it has to be the net profit of \$160 per wedding.

Based on 8 weddings per month, the net profit from each wedding should be \$400.

The per hour charge doesn't really work out the same way as the 0800-1700, 5.5 days/week kind of wage system.
Very confusing indeed.

Someone suggested that "Sale is \$650 minus \$219.50, you have \$430.50 gross profit for this assignment."

So, if we have 8 wedding per mth, we will make \$3.4K. Enough to feed a family?

Now, the salty accountant suggested to earn at least 9k?

3. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

if u need 8 AD per mth, then u are in dangerous positions, as there are no money for u to buy, service, repair, upgrade ur equipment, that's including computer etc.

4. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by Xiao_shin
Very confusing indeed.

Someone suggested that "Sale is \$650 minus \$219.50, you have \$430.50 gross profit for this assignment."

So, if we have 8 wedding per mth, we will make \$3.4K. Enough to feed a family?

Now, the salty accountant suggested to earn at least 9k?
Part of the reason why you need to earn at least 9k is because that's gross profit. Strictly speaking actual/nett profit is the amount you'd actually be taking home which means many other factors still needs to factored in that could possibly be incurred with or without a shoot.

And this is where i say many photogs get really confused between cash flow and profitability. they do 8 wedding per month, take home 3.2K and are very happy. But there are "hidden costs" that eats away at your 3.2 k very rapidly to the point where it might go into negative. Like what? Transport, parking, equipment depreciation, insurance, phone bills, emergency funds ie a lawyer to defend you in case your CF card goes bad, reprints if your lab screws up, repairs, website, sample albums, courier charges and the list goes on and on and on.

Then my questions as well is if you're doing 8 weddings a month at \$800 each, why not do 4 weddings a month at \$1600? Seems logical to me to work less and earn more and have more time to work on the art of the wedding photography. But i guess different strokes for different folks.

5. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by ckuang
Part of the reason why you need to earn at least 9k is because that's gross profit. Strictly speaking actual/nett profit is the amount you'd actually be taking home which means many other factors still needs to factored in that could possibly be incurred with or without a shoot.

And this is where i say many photogs get really confused between cash flow and profitability. they do 8 wedding per month, take home 3.2K and are very happy. But there are "hidden costs" that eats away at your 3.2 k very rapidly to the point where it might go into negative. Like what? Transport, parking, equipment depreciation, insurance, phone bills, emergency funds ie a lawyer to defend you in case your CF card goes bad, reprints if your lab screws up, repairs, website, sample albums, courier charges and the list goes on and on and on.

Then my questions as well is if you're doing 8 weddings a month at \$800 each, why not do 4 weddings a month at \$1600? Seems logical to me to work less and earn more and have more time to work on the art of the wedding photography. But i guess different strokes for different folks.
\$430 per wedding is already minus all expense incurred during the job. It is the nett profit.

Of cos, I would like to charge \$3.2K and do 1 wedding a month. But people must be willingly to pay me this amount for what I can produce. Frankly, now I can only command \$650-800 per wedding.

As I said, even \$3.2 take home pay might not be enough to feed a family. But as a part-time, not too bad.

6. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by Xiao_shin
\$430 per wedding is already minus all expense incurred during the job. It is the nett profit.

Of cos, I would like to charge \$3.2K and do 1 wedding a month. But people must be willingly to pay me this amount for what I can produce. Frankly, now I can only command \$650-800 per wedding.

As I said, even \$3.2 take home pay might not be enough to feed a family. But as a part-time, not too bad.
The list of expenses in the from the \$650 to give \$430.50 is nowhere near the kind of accurate accounts one would keep in order to run a viable business or to do wedding photography in the long term and certainly does not reflect nett profit. some major costs not factored in include
1.depreciation of computer equipment
2. depreciation of software (of course if one is using pirated software then i have nothing to say)
3. Insurance. Both for yourself and third party liability.
4. Cost of website. both setting up and operating cost (of course you can use flickr but not very pro looking)
5. sample albums
6. equipment repair (not same as depreciation and at 8 weddings a month you're going to need lots of it)
7. cell phone, water, power (unless the business does not need it)
8. professional development (unless one doesn't plan on getting better)
9. Marketing costs (funny thing i actually think part timers need to spend a lot on this because there are so many other part timers around and to be able to shoot 8 weddings a month, I actually think marketing costs will be quite high)

the fact is the list keeps going on and on and on.

And many part time photographers say nah, i don't have these expenses or i'm already having or using it, why account for it? Well, the reason is because if you don't you might be paying to shoot a couple's wedding, which in that case, why not just sit at home and not make a loss instead?

Also many people will ask, what's the big deal about not accounting properly, and as my financial adviser tells me, the importance is simple. Over account for your costs and you'll retire with more money than you anticipated. That can only be a good thing.

Under account for your expenses in a high cash flow low profit business (as is the case for wedding photography) and the time you will find out your mistake is when you retire or when something catastrophic happens to you. The worst time to find out because that's when you need cash the most.

So i'd rather over account than under account for costs.

7. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by Xiao_shin
Very confusing indeed.

Someone suggested that "Sale is \$650 minus \$219.50, you have \$430.50 gross profit for this assignment."

So, if we have 8 wedding per mth, we will make \$3.4K. Enough to feed a family?

Now, the salty accountant suggested to earn at least 9k?
I didn't believe it before I went full time either. Actually I did, but I didn't know the discrepancy would be so large. To be able to shoot how I shoot, I spent more than 10k in 2008 on software, educational costs and experimental equipment. To reach my target market, I spent more than 10k on marketing. Just for these 2 things alone, other things aside (which I assure you are substantial as well), I have to net more than \$2k per month over and on top of my running costs, material costs, depreciation costs. How much do you think I should charge?

8. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by ckuang
The list of expenses in the from the \$650 to give \$430.50 is nowhere near the kind of accurate accounts one would keep in order to run a viable business or to do wedding photography in the long term and certainly does not reflect nett profit. some major costs not factored in include
1.depreciation of computer equipment
2. depreciation of software (of course if one is using pirated software then i have nothing to say)
3. Insurance. Both for yourself and third party liability.
4. Cost of website. both setting up and operating cost (of course you can use flickr but not very pro looking)
5. sample albums
6. equipment repair (not same as depreciation and at 8 weddings a month you're going to need lots of it)
7. cell phone, water, power (unless the business does not need it)
8. professional development (unless one doesn't plan on getting better)
9. Marketing costs (funny thing i actually think part timers need to spend a lot on this because there are so many other part timers around and to be able to shoot 8 weddings a month, I actually think marketing costs will be quite high)

the fact is the list keeps going on and on and on.

And many part time photographers say nah, i don't have these expenses or i'm already having or using it, why account for it? Well, the reason is because if you don't you might be paying to shoot a couple's wedding, which in that case, why not just sit at home and not make a loss instead?

Also many people will ask, what's the big deal about not accounting properly, and as my financial adviser tells me, the importance is simple. Over account for your costs and you'll retire with more money than you anticipated. That can only be a good thing.

Under account for your expenses in a high cash flow low profit business (as is the case for wedding photography) and the time you will find out your mistake is when you retire or when something catastrophic happens to you. The worst time to find out because that's when you need cash the most.

So i'd rather over account than under account for costs.

Thanks for the breakdown.

By the way, how much are you charging per wedding? AD only. It's ok if it is inconvenient to disclose.

I think you got it right that part timer won't care much for the expenditure that you have discussed.

However, I don't quite agree on the part about part timer having to spend more on marketing. Most of us get job thru forum and friends/client. Even for pro like yourself, do you advertise your services in any media like magazine or paper?

9. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by shinken
I didn't believe it before I went full time either. Actually I did, but I didn't know the discrepancy would be so large. To be able to shoot how I shoot, I spent more than 10k in 2008 on software, educational costs and experimental equipment. To reach my target market, I spent more than 10k on marketing. Just for these 2 things alone, other things aside (which I assure you are substantial as well), I have to net more than \$2k per month over and on top of my running costs, material costs, depreciation costs. How much do you think I should charge?
I need to see your portfolio before I can give you an answer.

Just joking.

To breakeven and have a monthly income of 4K, considering the write down of equipement and software to be 2 years. You probably need 5K inflow per month?

If 1 wedding bring you 1K (considering that you are pro), then 15 wedding will breakeven for you. (using salty accounting theory)

10. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Xiao_shin,

Sale minus tangible expenditure is gross profit,

gross profit minus fix expenditure is nett profit

tangible expenditure is the expenses that you need to produce the sale (no sale no expenses)

fix expenditure is the expenses that you have no business coming in yet you still have to pay.

an average ballpark percentage for most business is, 30% of the sale is gross profit, 30% of the gross profit is the nett profit.

so you now know that why \$650 for a wedding does not make any sense, you spending 24 working hours on a wedding, and customers only paying you 10 hours.

11. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by Xiao_shin
Thanks for the breakdown.

By the way, how much are you charging per wedding? AD only. It's ok if it is inconvenient to disclose.

I think you got it right that part timer won't care much for the expenditure that you have discussed.

However, I don't quite agree on the part about part timer having to spend more on marketing. Most of us get job thru forum and friends/client. Even for pro like yourself, do you advertise your services in any media like magazine or paper?
I think you wouldn't want to know, else you will ban you head to the wall, seriously.

hint, Kuang charge more than you shoot a wedding in an hour

12. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by Xiao_shin
I need to see your portfolio before I can give you an answer.

Just joking.

To breakeven and have a monthly income of 4K, considering the write down of equipement and software to be 2 years. You probably need 5K inflow per month?

If 1 wedding bring you 1K (considering that you are pro), then 15 wedding will breakeven for you. (using salty accounting theory)

If my cash inflow is 5k per month, then I probably am only making enough to pay for my private transport (taking public transport) and food (we're talking about the average middle or lower middle income food), definitely no money to have kids or money to give the wife. There will be very little to reinvest into business. Without exaggeration. And shooting the way i shoot and serving my target clients, I cannot, at this point, afford to shoot for 15 clients. You don't just find them and stack them like maths.

I advertise my services on web, print and various places. I'm quite new in the business and have yet seen the fruits of my marketing efforts, so no. And marketing does not just mean advertising.

Wedding day photography has evolved and changed drastically these few years, and ways of doing things is becoming more varied and sophisticated. Clients are beginning to appreciate the difference, and willing to pay for the difference. However, those who look price tags like 3k or 4k a wedding, and imagine the photographer making 12k a month over and on top of their fixed salary may actually be looking at a fantasy. At least that's the case for me.

13. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by Xiao_shin
My bad. What I meant to say is about \$160 per day based on \$17 per hour, working 9 hours.

If you have work for 20 days, 1 wedding took up 2.5 days with editing inclusive. 1 month can earn 3.2K.

The wedding album is selling at \$300? How come so expensive?
the ingredient of a plate of char kway tiao is cost less then \$0.50, why that uncle sell you \$3.00 for one plate?

14. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by catchlights
I think you wouldn't want to know, else you will ban you head to the wall, seriously.

hint, Kuang charge more than you shoot a wedding in an hour
Then, I really want to know. Of cos, if he don't mind to reveal.

15. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by Xiao_shin
Very confusing indeed.

Someone suggested that "Sale is \$650 minus \$219.50, you have \$430.50 gross profit for this assignment."

So, if we have 8 wedding per mth, we will make \$3.4K. Enough to feed a family?

Now, the salty accountant suggested to earn at least 9k?
your \$3.4k have not factor many expenses, those like you sit down there do nothing still have to pay, you CPF lar, whatever whatever cost lar, etc.

Don't forget, you have 8 weddings a month to shoot, means that either you go full time or still work as part time but don't need to sleep, to enable complete and deliver albums for the 8 weddings.

btw, weddings do have season, there will be about 2 and a half months in a year have no weddings to shoot.

16. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by catchlights
the ingredient of a plate of char kway tiao is cost less then \$0.50, why that uncle sell you \$3.00 for one plate?
Becos he want to earn? Of cos, I know that.

I am asking how did you came up with the album is selling around \$300?

"Service rate does not include material, the album is selling around \$300 (low end rate)
so the chargeable service rate is only \$35 per hour, (\$650-\$300)/10 hours."

Head getting bigger and bigger.. And so far, only a handful actually answer the main question. "How much do you charge?"

For the record, I charge \$650-800. Depending on the physical hour I need to be with the couple.

17. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by Xiao_shin
Then, I really want to know. Of cos, if he don't mind to reveal.
come on, it is not an secret, every local wedding photographers wish able to charge couple like him. (sorry, I mean almost everybody... )

18. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by shinken
If my cash inflow is 5k per month, then I probably am only making enough to pay for my private transport (taking public transport) and food (we're talking about the average middle or lower middle income food), definitely no money to have kids or money to give the wife. There will be very little to reinvest into business. Without exaggeration. And shooting the way i shoot and serving my target clients, I cannot, at this point, afford to shoot for 15 clients. You don't just find them and stack them like maths.
I am not too sure what an average Singaporean pay but I am taking home 2.5K per mth.
If you can't have kids or give wife money(do we still gave wife allowance? I gave allowance to my parent though) with 5K income, how can people like me survive?

19. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

Originally Posted by Xiao_shin
I am not too sure what an average Singaporean pay but I am taking home 2.5K per mth.
If you can't have kids or give wife money(do we still gave wife allowance? I gave allowance to my parent though) with 5K income, how can people like me survive?
You're still not getting it. 5k cash inflow is not 5k income. If my cash inflow is 5k, I am bringing home less than half of your 2.5k.

20. ## Re: How much do you charge for an AD wedding

I am charging at \$180 per hr.
Cost is high, need to increase.

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