Well it's no biggie, I just don't mince my words.
Just to clarify with everyone else... I'm not a brand purist. I've owned (simultaneously) at one point the Sony Alpha 200, Pentax K200D, Olympus E-420/520, Nikon D60 (with 55-200 VR). Of course, along with my trusty 400D.
Aforementioned in my earlier post was my anecdotal response (having used these cameras for a period of time) to which IS system bags it for me. I won't repeat myself.
And I do believe that my views are shared by a couple who are reading this right now, who have decided to be impartial and put aside their prejudices against any particular brand(s).
I still encourage anyone who wonders why Canon and Nikon put the IS module in their lenses to try out a 55-250 IS or a 55-200 VR coupled with a consumer DSLR at their favorite friendly camera shop.
A hands-on feel to both types of IS implementations would be a great (and free) addition of knowledge. You may even discover which type of system works for you, which ultimately will be the answer to your questions, right? Yay.
Finally, I wouldn't try the E-3, cater. Like TS and the many who have graced this thread with their comments, I shoot consumer entry level to enthusiast DSLRs. I'd prefer to stay on topic. Thanks anyway.
Last edited by ditikolon; 11th August 2008 at 11:58 PM.
Personally, I much prefer in body IS just for the fact that you can mount a f1.4 prime and get IS. I think there is just no such option among C & N.
I do agree that for really long lens like > 300mm lens stabilization is much better as it is really a pain in the neck to frame at such focal length. BUT I think 99% of newbies like me don't really shoot at such focal length. Most people shoot during travels, family events, landscapes, etc. Most commonly used focal length are around 17-200mm.
For most people, the availability of IS with f1.4 primes is more useful I feel as u can shoot pre-dawn or just after dusk shots when the light is really magical. Of course u can boost the ISO, but the 3-4 stops of IS gives u much more flexibility.
thanks guys. i've really learnt a lot from what you people posted.
Feature-wise, the Canon trumps the Olympus I feel, reason being
- 9 point AF vs 3 point
- 12MP vs 10MP
- Largest collection of lenses
But of course the in-body IS is a real boon in saving you money but it won't be as effective as lens-based stabilizers as the lens-based ones are tailored specifically for each different lens and you see the effect of stabilization through the viewfinder.
Last edited by MarkTan89; 12th August 2008 at 09:22 AM.
I didnt know Olympus implemented E420 with IS. Is that the latest version ??? You sure you really own this cam b4 or which review site you went to that leads you to the wrong information ??? Well we will take your advise to try on Nikon & Canon with IS lens, but I think I really have big doubts on you telling us that you've owned the cam b4 and I simply think that your words no longer trustworthy and is totally misleading espicially you mentioned you owned the camera b4. So this is what u call brutally honest ???
There is a chinese saying - smart is good, dont get over smart.
If u really owned even the E520 b4, U will know that u dont need E3 to test out the IS on what I've mentioned on earlier on. E520, E510 & E3 works the same.
From the above pin-point, I dont have to guess if u really owned the so many camera b4 and clearly known that your are not a brand purist but a brand supporter.
Back to the topic, we are here to share our experience on different brands of cameras to help the TS, not to talk tons of bullshit and win people over to the cameras brand that u support. We respect all brands that each have their own pros & cons and we also respect & appreciate user to share their experience but not bullshitter.
not sure if this link help to clear some of our doubt...
some reply thru others on cnet
discussion from dpreview
Life is like Photography, to improve, you have to keep shooting!
I fully agreed 9 points is better than 3 points. Infact if given a choice, I prefer 51 AF points. But for those whom using Olympus E520 there is ways to over come it. Just turn on live view and use the imager 11 points AF if u needed it. Otherwise I still think Canon 9 points is still a better choice.
Again I fully agreed in theory having more pixel is always better in terms of details. Do remember u need a good glass to drive it to the fullest too. I always have doubts in my mind on why the E1(5MP) is doing better then E500(8MP).
I again agreed with Mark that In-body IS is a big saving. Also agreed that in theory the lens-based stabilizers is often better as they are tailored specifically for different focusing length. But if you were to follow on egnaro post, there is doubts to this theory base on what they have review. Further to that, the biggest breaking news is that non of Olympus user tell you Olympus IS can cater on different focusing length manually. No doubt this feature manual IS is more for usage of older glass, different brand glass, but I personally find it better to set IS manually rather than auto.
I have to disagree with you largest collection of glass in the point of considering a camera . 1st, are you talking from oldest to newest glass? 2nd ask yourself how many you really need or you were just thinking of collecting all and be a glass collector. I personally use 50mm F2 for flowers macro and portrait, 12-60mm for wide and 50-200mm for tele. If i think i need wider, perhaps the 7-14mm or later release of 9-18mm. If i need further macro,an Ex-25 macro tube, sigma 105mm or 150mm macro is capable. An amateur photographer like me only only require 3-4 lens on average. Whats the point of largest glass collection ???
Thanks to Mark, u have your point on more focusing point. And egnaro, thanks for the post over Lens IS vs Body IS. All along i was thinking Lens IS is better, now u really make me in doubts.
Last edited by cater; 12th August 2008 at 12:27 PM.
my personal conclusion,
Lens IS is good but more weight and more money on IS.
Canon EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM S$1,999 1.7 lb. /749
EF 70-200mm f/4L USM S$1,299 1.6 lb. /705
Nikon AF-S VR 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G IF-ED - ($850~$870) Weight (approx.) 745g
AF 70-300mm f/4-5.6D ED - $680 Weight (approx.) 505g
This just an example for information only. Please dun bomb me on this.
Life is like Photography, to improve, you have to keep shooting!
Hi guys, first of all, before commenting on my below reply, I have a simple request - read what I have to say carefully. I read through all your posts before commenting each time... the least you could do is to return the respect, and this would benefit both you and me.
Cater, I can't be bothered with you and your dribel... and your name-calling. Sigh, you seem pretty worked up. You really should stop sleeping with your Olympus under your pillow, even though you clearly love it so much.
It's not healthy, y'know.
Initially I had this nagging feeling that you were one of the R&D engineers of Olympus' in-body system, since you were clearly advocating it. Plus you kept"advising" me with a couple of ancient Chinese idioms... I couldn't help but link this up with the fact that Olympus cameras are manufactured in China. Ahh... you have to forgive me for being so presumptuous.
Of course now I have my doubts about you coming from Olympus development... since you have clearly displayed lack of knowledge and courteous reason in your posts. I guess it's forgivable, this being the newbie's corner.
I never advocated any camera brand or IS system. I only talked about the differences in IS systems and attempted to debunk, with anecdotes about why Canon and Nikon goes with lens-based IS systems instead of going with the in-body approach that appears to make more economic sense.
I also quoted this Japanese saying, "different strokes for different folks". In essence, what works for one person may not work for another. It's a self-discovery kind of thing.
Hence, I suggested that newbies go to the DSLR shops to try the different cameras and their IS systems in order to get a feel of the different methods implemented by the makers. Quote as below.
"A hands-on feel to both types of IS implementations would be a great (and free) addition of knowledge. You may even discover which type of system works for you, which ultimately will be the answer to your questions, right? Yay."
On an ending note, I think Mark summed it up very nicely in his reasoning "why 450D trumps the E-520". This will be the important question for most newbies: why this camera over another?
My advice is... go feel the camera for yourself at the stores, read a good mix of anecdotal reviews (such as kenrockwell.com), detailed brochure-like reviews (dpreview), and link up with your friends who own DSLRs. Or their friends who own DSLRs. Talk to them, and don't be afraid to ask questions.
Remember, it's no small investment. You aren't buying a camera body as per Point-And-Shoot cameras.
You're buying into a system - lenses, flashes, mount adapter compatibility (perhaps your dad owned a couple of old K mount pentax lenses?), Image-Stablization systems, after-sales support, third-party lens compatibility, battery grips, etc.
Because a large majority of newbies will not be satisfied with just owning a DSLR kit. After a while, you will start questioning what your DSLR can do. And explore avenues to maximize its potential (adding accessories and buying lenses/flashes, etc) so you can get better pictures.
So treat your DSLR purchase seriously. No point involving yourself in all the brand war nonsense that some people here at Clubsnap are so eager to launch themselves into. Photography is a practical hobby, no point sitting in front of the computer launching into hypothetical discussions... these will never end because some people just love their gear too much.
Most importantly, you're happy with your purchase, because you know you did enough homework... and thus you are enjoying your experience with photography.
I know I'm really happy with my cameras. They bring me and other people a lot of joy, and that was something I learnt by focusing on my shooting, instead of sitting in front of my computer replying certain stupid people.
If one has personal issues with another forumer, take it private, please.
And this is my personal view on this - all modern DSLRs from any brand are more than capable of taking great images. Price points between brands are now closer than they have ever been, so go the shops, try the cameras within your budget and decide which is the most comfortable in your hands.
Last edited by drakon09; 12th August 2008 at 01:34 PM.
1st, I sincerely apologise to mod drakon09 of heating up this thread.
2nd, since I have already stated the fact without misleading TS, i think i've done my part.
3rd, I find it pretty useless and till the state that I find myself so bladdy foolish because .... when i click on ditikolon flickr than I figure out that all along I was talking to a school boy. No wonder I see naive argument and fight back just like cry baby instead proper discussion with facts and reasons to support and back up. None of my questions were answer.
4th Im backing off from here as Im not gonna generate heat agn.
Of all the non-Canon DSLRs I've had the privilege to own and play with, I felt that the Olympus ones were most satisfying. Kit lenses all have ED glass (Extra-Low Dispersion), and are compact and sharp. The pancake lens is real fun. Put it on and you've instantly got a lightweight winner.
I also like the way Olympus handles image noise. A lot of people would say that it's not as pleasant as the pretty clean Canon images at higher ISOs, but I think it lends a nice feel to the image - it's discernable, but not annoying. Almost like "film grain".
My personal take is that the Olympus cameras make casual photography quite enjoyable.
As for the 450D, a lot has been said on the camera so I won't reiterate. It's quite highly rated by literally everybody. Basically, Mark's above posting is already quite concise.
I'm sure that it isn't easy to shop for your first camera... especially with so much info coming from all directions about different camera systems, and the fact that you only have this much to spend!
Again, strongly encourage that you go to the shops to try out, okay?
do note that this kind of brand war will not be tolerated
i suggest that the different brand loyalists bring their discussions to the respective forums
where you will find other like minded people to agree with you
if you want to educate the newbies on the pros and cons of your particular system, please
do it objectively and do not take it personally
do note that every camera can produce great images, it only depends if the user knows how to use it well.
yes even P&S cameras
btw i will not tolerate any more brand trolling after this post.
have a nice day ppl
Another thing is, I rather have more competition among camera manufacturers cos in the end, customers like you and I benefit
take into consideration your budget when u are starting a dslr system. its easy to get carried away with the initial euphoria and seemingly low cost of entry.
with your requirements, why don't u take a look at what the 2 brands is offering in terms of lenses and other accessories?
for your landscape, canon has the 10-22 which is abt 1k right now. the olympus offers the 7-14 which will give a similar fov which is $2.5k
for your events, canon has the 17-55 which is abt 1.4k. the 14-35 from olympus is abt 3k.
for travelling, canon loses out with no 10x zooms. olympus has the 18-180 which is like 700+ from the price list here.
i am not sure how accurate are the pricing but i hope u get an idea what u are getting into for both systems. arguably, oly has been making lenses for god knows how long and their zuiko glass is one of the best among the jap makers. canon and nikon don't even come close.
most important, try every brands. read every specs. go to the upcoming comex and try try try and ask ask ask. but sometimes asking the sales guy from comex or other IT shows can be quite frustrating, coz they will, most of the time, say their product is best, that's what their job is.