What did I do wrong?

zipper · 18th July 2003

Below is a picture I took under bright sun light... but I still find it noisy/grainy. What did I do wrong and how/what should I have done to improve it? Any inputs are welcome.

Camera : Sony F717

Camera
Make SONY
Model CYBERSHOT
Orientation upper left
X resolution 72
Y resolution 72
Resolution unit 2
Datetime 2003:07:05 17:17:17
YCbCr positioning co-sited
Image
Image description
Exposure time 1/200 s
F-number 2.3
Exposure program Manual
ISO speed ratings 100
Date/time original 2003:07:05 17:17:17
Date/time digitized 2003:07:05 17:17:17
Component config YCbCr
Compressed BPP 2
Exposure bias value 0
Max. aperture value 2.0625
Metering mode Spot
Light source Unknown
Flash Flash did not fire
Focal length 28.1 mm
Colorspace sRGB
Pixel X dimension 2048
Pixel Y dimension 1536
Scene type Photographed image
Custom Rendered Normal process
Exposure mode Manual exposure
White balance Auto white balance

The original size

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...5.jpg.orig.jpg

Thanks.

espn · 18th July 2003

Urm, it looks pretty ok to me. I can't view the original though. Maybe try fixing the link?

sulhan · 18th July 2003

Hiee....

The photos looks okay to me too. Well.....just a quick question.....
have you tried printing it out??....

The Monitor may not give you the actual quality that you want to look for........

Grainy??? where??

regards,
me

sequitur · 19th July 2003

where got grainy ?!

biangz..

maybe you mean.. color saturation not there ? contrast not there ?

if you really wanna see grainy photos.. set the 717 to ISO 800 go to a concert and take a photo and you'll see what's grainy.. :P

Winston · 19th July 2003

You are using Imagestation to hotlink.

You need to remove the excess ".orig.jpg" behind your url link to the orinigal.

Instead of www.imagestation.......jpg.orig.jpg

It should be www.imagestation......jpg

the link will work.

f55user · 20th July 2003

There's nothing wrong if the picture is noisy/grainy.. what you're seeing is present in *every* consumer camera...

sequitur · 20th July 2003

point is it's not even grainy at all..

uh
correction man it'll be grainy in EVERY CAMERA just that different magnitudes.. like low iso grain is so fine that naked eye can't see but if you blow it up 1000000000000000 times sure got grain

hahaha

zipper · 21st July 2003

Hi Guys, quite busy during weekends... gotta be a good father cum driver..

Here I am trying to show you the actual picture, a cropped version and a noise-removed picture and hopeful I am able to show you what I meant.

Links to large size, please click on original to the actual size for what I meant grainy/noise.

Original picture:
http://www.pbase.com/image/19359387

I also cropped part of the picture and see if I can demonstrate what I was trying to point out.

Cropped picture:
http://www.pbase.com/image/19359410

Noise-removed picture:

http://www.pbase.com/image/19359815

I am more than happy to know if the "I so-called" noise/grain is normal to digital (consumer) camera, in particular, Sony F717. At least, I know it's camera limitation and there's nothing I can do except to do some post-processing.

I am still learning and that's why I was puzzled why under bright sun light there was still noice. First thing came to my mind was that I did NOT do something right.

f55user · 21st July 2003

Wow, you're really a perfectionist aren't you

The "cropped" picture's noise levels are as low as they get already... I shan't mention the dark side....

zipper · 21st July 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by f55user
Wow, you're really a perfectionist aren't you

The "cropped" picture's noise levels are as low as they get already... I shan't mention the dark side....

I wish to know if I am doing right and if there is room for improvement, on the snapping part and not the post-processing part.

I traced back my earlier shots and found not so much of noise in the pictures... so I think I can rule out that the fault is in the camera itself (last thing I want to be), it must be something which I didn't do right ever since I switched to learn in manual mode.

I must admit it's not apple-to-apple comparison as there are many differences, in sizes, auto vs manual... etc.
However, posting the picture here for your kind perusal... may be my eyes are playing tricks on me..

http://www.pbase.com/image/19366240

sequitur · 21st July 2003

WAHLAU I GIVE UP

biang eh that's noise yeah but that's coz it's a full blown picture so damn big..

no i'm sure you didn't do anything wrong it's just normal any picture viewed at original size would have this kinda noise

don't believe, check out www.dpreview.com and their sony reviews and see if their original picture has this kinda noise or not..

zipper · 22nd July 2003

Sorry Sequitur to agitate you.

I did a search in dpreview and discovered there were lots of discussion about noise/grain on F717 especially when shots were taken with manual mode. In-camera sharpening is doing the trick. This somewhat confirmed my observation of my own pictures. Earlier pictures were mostly taken with programmed modes and later switched to manual.

However, I did not manage to conclude which in-camera sharpening setting is right from the forum. Majority preferred -1 or +1. 0 was recommended by some so not to lose the details and subsequently sharpening in post-processing can be achieved with a better results (more details).

Of course, higher ISO and underexposed cause the noise/grain, too. I remembered reading somewhere heat from the battery could cause noise, too.

Just my own finding from reading discussion from dpreview. Certainly hope I do understand the matter correctly. Please correct me if I miss the point.

I would like to do some tests to see the different of various sharpening settings. I could not locate any tests on this from dpreview, please do let me know if you happen to know there is such samples shots on in-camera sharpening, for F717, of course.

Thanks for reading and sorry to bother u, if you feel annoyed reading this.

Regards.

sequitur · 22nd July 2003

hmm i'm not agitated or annoyed

just that
man you're very picky

coz whatever you see if printed on an 8R will still be nearly invisible to the naked eye

zipper · 23rd July 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by sequitur
hmm i'm not agitated or annoyed

just that
man you're very picky

coz whatever you see if printed on an 8R will still be nearly invisible to the naked eye

Thanks for your responses so far.

I really don't think I am picky. If there is a way to improve my photography skills and better know my camera capability, I think I would want to do it. I am not after the print anyway. I heard and understood what you were saying.

I think what I am saying, I am still very new to both photography and my camera F717, I am enjoying the process of learning and improving my knowledge on both. I would have gone for a point-n-shoot camera if I had no interest in learning photograhy but just wanted to take pictures. Well, and of course, DSLR is really out of my budget so I am settled with this prosumer model - F717, and I am happy with it so far.

I had given up this hobby some years back when digital camera was unheard of. Now I am so happy with this digital camera as a tool to learn photography which I could easily redo the workflow to finetune my skills, if I am not satisfied with the results and know there is a way to improve it... That was the very reason I started this thread and tried to find if it was the limitation of the camera or the lack of my knowledge.

Thanks to those who responded and took your time to view...

And I am sorry if I had asked something stupid.

Best regards.

sequitur · 23rd July 2003

i'm also a learner with exactly the same situation as you are now.

just that.. no that's really not a lot of noise that you see.

how about this pic

this is REALLY noise.

iso 400 or 800 i can't rem.. but it was full zoom optical + digital.

compare this with your pic.. lol your pic is practically "noiseless".

f55user · 23rd July 2003

yup, just remember, dun expect DSLR-type of noiseless pix at this price point... 717 is already one of the best 5mp cams out there, so just go and take some pix

18th July 2003	#1
zipper Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 287	What did I do wrong? Below is a picture I took under bright sun light... but I still find it noisy/grainy. What did I do wrong and how/what should I have done to improve it? Any inputs are welcome. Camera : Sony F717 Camera Make SONY Model CYBERSHOT Orientation upper left X resolution 72 Y resolution 72 Resolution unit 2 Datetime 2003:07:05 17:17:17 YCbCr positioning co-sited Image Image description Exposure time 1/200 s F-number 2.3 Exposure program Manual ISO speed ratings 100 Date/time original 2003:07:05 17:17:17 Date/time digitized 2003:07:05 17:17:17 Component config YCbCr Compressed BPP 2 Exposure bias value 0 Max. aperture value 2.0625 Metering mode Spot Light source Unknown Flash Flash did not fire Focal length 28.1 mm Colorspace sRGB Pixel X dimension 2048 Pixel Y dimension 1536 Scene type Photographed image Custom Rendered Normal process Exposure mode Manual exposure White balance Auto white balance The original size http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...5.jpg.orig.jpg Thanks. Last edited by zipper; 18th July 2003 at 12:50 PM.

18th July 2003	#3
sulhan Advertiser Join Date: May 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 4,051	Looks Okay to me too!!! Hiee.... The photos looks okay to me too. Well.....just a quick question..... have you tried printing it out??.... The Monitor may not give you the actual quality that you want to look for........ Grainy??? where?? regards, me

19th July 2003	#4
sequitur Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,830	where got grainy ?! biangz.. maybe you mean.. color saturation not there ? contrast not there ? if you really wanna see grainy photos.. set the 717 to ISO 800 go to a concert and take a photo and you'll see what's grainy.. :P __________________ my flickr.

20th July 2003	#7
sequitur Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,830	point is it's not even grainy at all.. uh correction man it'll be grainy in EVERY CAMERA just that different magnitudes.. like low iso grain is so fine that naked eye can't see but if you blow it up 1000000000000000 times sure got grain hahaha __________________ my flickr.

21st July 2003	#8
zipper Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 287	Sorry guys..let's try PBase & a cropped version Hi Guys, quite busy during weekends... gotta be a good father cum driver.. Here I am trying to show you the actual picture, a cropped version and a noise-removed picture and hopeful I am able to show you what I meant. Links to large size, please click on original to the actual size for what I meant grainy/noise. Original picture: http://www.pbase.com/image/19359387 I also cropped part of the picture and see if I can demonstrate what I was trying to point out. Cropped picture: http://www.pbase.com/image/19359410 Noise-removed picture: http://www.pbase.com/image/19359815 I am more than happy to know if the "I so-called" noise/grain is normal to digital (consumer) camera, in particular, Sony F717. At least, I know it's camera limitation and there's nothing I can do except to do some post-processing. I am still learning and that's why I was puzzled why under bright sun light there was still noice. First thing came to my mind was that I did NOT do something right. Last edited by zipper; 21st July 2003 at 10:49 AM.

18th July 2003	#2
espn Deregistered Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Planet Nikon Posts: 22,045	Urm, it looks pretty ok to me. I can't view the original though. Maybe try fixing the link?

19th July 2003	#5
Winston Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 663	You are using Imagestation to hotlink. You need to remove the excess ".orig.jpg" behind your url link to the orinigal. Instead of www.imagestation.......jpg.orig.jpg It should be www.imagestation......jpg the link will work.

20th July 2003	#6
f55user Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: "You Are Here" Posts: 276	There's nothing wrong if the picture is noisy/grainy.. what you're seeing is present in every consumer camera...

21st July 2003	#11
sequitur Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,830	WAHLAU I GIVE UP biang eh that's noise yeah but that's coz it's a full blown picture so damn big.. no i'm sure you didn't do anything wrong it's just normal any picture viewed at original size would have this kinda noise don't believe, check out www.dpreview.com and their sony reviews and see if their original picture has this kinda noise or not.. __________________ my flickr.

22nd July 2003	#12
zipper Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 287	What I gathered from dpreview.com Sorry Sequitur to agitate you. I did a search in dpreview and discovered there were lots of discussion about noise/grain on F717 especially when shots were taken with manual mode. In-camera sharpening is doing the trick. This somewhat confirmed my observation of my own pictures. Earlier pictures were mostly taken with programmed modes and later switched to manual. However, I did not manage to conclude which in-camera sharpening setting is right from the forum. Majority preferred -1 or +1. 0 was recommended by some so not to lose the details and subsequently sharpening in post-processing can be achieved with a better results (more details). Of course, higher ISO and underexposed cause the noise/grain, too. I remembered reading somewhere heat from the battery could cause noise, too. Just my own finding from reading discussion from dpreview. Certainly hope I do understand the matter correctly. Please correct me if I miss the point. I would like to do some tests to see the different of various sharpening settings. I could not locate any tests on this from dpreview, please do let me know if you happen to know there is such samples shots on in-camera sharpening, for F717, of course. Thanks for reading and sorry to bother u, if you feel annoyed reading this. Regards.

23rd July 2003	#15
sequitur Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,830	i'm also a learner with exactly the same situation as you are now. just that.. no that's really not a lot of noise that you see. how about this pic this is REALLY noise. iso 400 or 800 i can't rem.. but it was full zoom optical + digital. compare this with your pic.. lol your pic is practically "noiseless". __________________ my flickr.