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Thread: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

  1. #41
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClipperSG View Post
    I live my life without conforming to accepted standards. I see people following so called standards, and yet it makes them more miserable and stressed than before. I have no wish to accelerate my expiry date.

    I repeated my Os even though I was in Express stream, then enrolled in VITB when I couldn't enter anywhere. After I came out from NS, I said "Screw it", and entered headlong into an industry where papers count for next to nothing. After 15 years, I'm where I'm in the industry following my own path, which the industry doesn't even see it possible.

    My family is not subscribed to modern standards of raising kids. They can eat fast food anytime of the day, play any toys or computer games as long as they want to, are disciplined with a cane and brought up to approach life and the world with an open mind and curiosity. I don't view school grades as the be all and end all.

    I take the same path with all my hobbies too. I started with film 25 years ago and had a mini darkroom in the flat for self-processing. I do not believe in Kodak's "How to take photographs" book and I do not follow standards for film processing. I will take a camera and shoot to my heart's content on my own judgement and nobody's else.

    I took part in one photo competition, last year's Canon, and its going to be my first and last one in life. As espion mentioned earlier..I regard photography competition organisers as anal retentive. The world doesn't revolve around them.

    I believe we have to each blaze our own paths in our short time on Earth. At the end of the day, I answer to myself and nobody else. If anybody doesn't like it, I can only sat "C'est la vie"

    I wish more photogs would lighten up and enjoy the hobby for what it really is...a hobby.
    Just wondering...... does that means you take a different train to work rather than the ones 2 million communters take? Or if you drive, is your Altise different from the ones the other 20 million owners have? And how is that hamburger you consume anytime of the day different from the BigMac I had today?

  2. #42
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClipperSG View Post
    My family is not subscribed to modern standards of raising kids. They can eat fast food anytime of the day, play any toys or computer games as long as they want to, are disciplined with a cane and brought up to approach life and the world with an open mind and curiosity. I don't view school grades as the be all and end all.
    Disciplining your kids with the cane is no "imposing of standards"? Dream on ...

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClipperSG View Post
    I live my life without conforming to accepted standards. I see people following so called standards, and yet it makes them more miserable and stressed than before. I have no wish to accelerate my expiry date.
    I wish more photogs would lighten up and enjoy the hobby for what it really is...a hobby.

    Don't think many folks would agree to that. The standards of living, doing a task, or even aspiring towards a goal require some form of planning, visual thinking and finally action to put into reality. When there is no standard as described in your vision it seems one can go about doing anything such as living in attap houses instead having to move into a modern HDB flat. You are already accepting the standard of living in our country in many ways.

    The hawker centres you go to when you are hungry, the schools that your kids have to attend for their education, the uniform they have to wear, the style of haircut you have to follow when working in some of the industries such as hospitality, health care, research laboratory and so on.

    Likewise while participating in a so called hobby of photography or in a game of golf one would not have to conform to any kind of standard, then where does the satisfaction comes from? Where is the enjoyment? Where is the goal that one wants to achieve in order to gain some kind of satisfaction? You just hit the golf ball anywhere and point your camera anywhere clicking the shutter without setting an achievable target, goal or an aspiring composition.

    You started a family and already have set a standard for yourself. Don't see why you are still not admitting that you are already conforming to setting up a family standard and that is to have children.

    How you bring up the children is a private affair but you have also set up a standard that they must have some form of education by sending them to school (not any school but a school of your choice).

    Does this mean you have not been stressed or felt miserable having to know that your children will always be in the last grade because you have no plan of setting a goal for them to achieve?

    Setting a standard for doing any task be it in a hobby, a job, or even a vision needs ultimate specific target or goals that is to be achieved. If a country does not set a standard of living or the like in accomodation for its people most likely the people will still be living in ancient stone or wooden structures.

    Whaling about your notion that you hate conforming to standards is like the pot calling the kettle black.


  4. #44
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    Quote Originally Posted by velasco View Post
    My teacher once said " There is no right or wrong answer in Literature" And followed that religiously and what I got was an experience so rich and vibrant with all the detours in my imagination and creativity. I hope photography will soon be in the same thought and logic. Simply aesthetic, thats how I like to look at it.
    Photography is there already, in the same way as Literature. Taking your example of Literature and applying it to Photography I could ask "What is a real story or poem? Does it need to be written on a typewriter machine in one go, without using correction fluid or anything else?" or "Is a real poem only the one that is written by hand on real paper?" - Finally: Does all that matter when you read the book?
    In the same way it is regardless to me whether a picture is created using analogue camera, digital camera, a computer, a mixture of all or something completely different. What matters is only what arrives in the eyes of the beholder. And this can be something completely different from what the artist had in mind.
    The difference is: we here in the forum are all longer "innocent beholders" but rather "craftsmen of pictures", that gives a different point of view. Suddenly we care also about how the picture is created. The discussion about the "How" is what drives everything forward in this world. Otherwise we would still sit in the cave, scared by the thunder rolling outside and gobbling up the burned meat found near the tree that was struck by lightning.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kit View Post
    Just wondering...... does that means you take a different train to work rather than the ones 2 million communters take? Or if you drive, is your Altise different from the ones the other 20 million owners have? And how is that hamburger you consume anytime of the day different from the BigMac I had today?
    Try the option of walking to work...and not eating Macs...u might find life a little more different..

  6. #46

    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    Disciplining your kids with the cane is no "imposing of standards"? Dream on ...
    My context was in the form of modern standards in which "experts" question the effectiveness of corporal punishment. Some go so far as to advocate that children should be treated as adults and talked to, rather than through the cane...

    Oh, and I wasn't aware that this forum was set up for "craftsmen of pictures". I must have been mistaken to assume that the forum welcomes anyone who has an interest in photography. My apologies for failing to see the admission requirements of "craftsmen" as a minimum level.

    It must have been very distressing for all the "craftsmen" here to have this unskilled and unco-ordinated monkey posting photos which don't meet up to the standards. I will try to prove that I can meet your expected high standards in these forums..
    Last edited by ClipperSG; 7th August 2008 at 11:34 PM.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    I wasn' t aware that it was a national law of standards for one to have children. Since when does children become an asset of standard measurement?

    The education system here is a standard set by the government thru the 10-year compulsory education system. Given the choice, I rather not have them go thru that cookie-cutter which stifles creativity and perpetuates an academic standard that not every child can achieve, with no other viable alternatives..

    Do I have to meet your standards of satisfaction in my hobby? Does that mean if I take a crooked, blurry picture and am happy with it...means you are going to disagree vehemently with me on that level of satisfaction?

    Does it also further mean that when I show that photo to others, you will be taking a big umbrage at it as a photo that underperforms to your expectations? Will you seek to impose your rule of thirds, straight level horizontals or geometric symmetry standards to my photos..and give me a big cross?

  8. #48

    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    And in order to preserve the standards of discussion in this forum (much as I disagree), I have realised that I have inadvertently hijacked and turn the thread way OT. My apologies to the TS, velasco.

    So I will cease and desist in this thread and everybody is free to take the last potshots at me.
    Last edited by ClipperSG; 7th August 2008 at 11:39 PM.

  9. #49
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClipperSG View Post
    And in order to preserve the standards of discussion in this forum (much as I disagree), I have realised that I have inadvertently hijacked and turn the thread way OT. My apologies to the TS, velasco.
    Which means that finally you accept and life according standards. Q.E.D.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    The bottom line I guess is we've got the following types of photographers.

    1. Samurais - those who live and die according to the "code"

    2. Ronins - those who used to live by the code, occasionally breaks them and learned to adapt his own.

    3. Ninjas - those who do not live by / or rejects the code and breaks 'em all if it satisfies himself.

    They all make good pictures and sometimes crosses swords... err... lenses... to make their vivid points.

    Now, boys, we can hereunto conclude that the Mona Lisa is fat and Leonardo should have used a 200mm VR and asked Mona to twist more to the right to look a little slimmer

  11. #51
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClipperSG View Post
    Try the option of walking to work...and not eating Macs...u might find life a little more different..
    So how different are you from those people whom are already walking to work and not eating at Macs?

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    May I add in one more type of the less known photographer not often found in this world.

    1. Samurais
    2. Ronins
    3. Ninjas


    4. Mafoers - these are the rare breed, who will live by the code when necessary, occasionally breaks them to adapt to the main stay.

    He does this not just to satisfies himself but to guide others to achieve their potential by not crossing swords nor die according to the "code" blindly.

    He will even sacrifice his own wants and needs just to make way for his will to live that way in accordance to his purpose of photographing and photography as a whole.

    To conclude it is just sad to assume that current society will only give recognition to those who are well known or "famous" or will it not?

    Particularly what about Leonardo's production in his hay days, do you think anyone would question his creativity when he was still alive?
    ------------------------------------
    It's still the individual's ultimate goal
    and his influence to the living world
    especially with his dogged pursue of
    photographing and his humanity...
    ideally and meaningful photographic
    activities that count.


  13. #53
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    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    Quote Originally Posted by forward View Post
    To conclude it is just sad to assume that current society will only give recognition to those who are well known or "famous" or will it not?
    Ah... but recognition is given to those who have both talent AND ability to present/market their work to the outside world. Failing one you will remain just an obscure and talented photographer or just a well known poser.

    Quote Originally Posted by forward View Post
    Particularly what about Leonardo's production in his hay days, do you think anyone would question his creativity when he was still alive?
    Now we're getting serious. During his time, a few would probably question him. Remember, he apprenticed to one of the famous artist of his days, Verrocchio. (As if I remember... just saw it in Wiki ) Anyway, what would arguably be more interesting to ask is if Leonardo is alive today would anyone question his work? Would anybody say they have enough of his art and has he crossed the line?

    I can imagine critics saying...

    * Leo's ignorant of bokeh. His photos always show a sharp background. Very distracting!

    * There are too many elements in his "Baptism of Christ" photo. Too busy. Remove the dove or that stupid staff John is holding. Very distracting and ancient! And... add a vignette... will yah?

    * The "Adoration of the Magi" has an orange cast. Doesn't he know anything about white balance?

    * Let's applaud Leo. He follows the "rule of thirds"!

    * Blah blah blah.

    And people would call him an idiot for being a ninja.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    Quote Originally Posted by velasco View Post
    in that case that is the technical process being done. i find that hundred percent acceptable since developing in the darkroom is the standard and definitive way of your postprocessing.

    My objective is just narrowing on the scope of digital photography. Whether utilizing editing programs to edit is tacky and should be put away. Whether it is a dishonest act ....
    You're trying to have it both ways.

    You say that darkroom techniques such as dodging and burning are "the standard and definitive way of post-processing." Yes, the standard way in film photography. In digital photography, dodging and burning (etc.) with an image editor like Photoshop is the standard way of post-processing.

    If you accept dodging as a "hundred percent acceptable" for film photos, why would you not accept it for digital images? Dodging is dodging, no matter what tools are used to do it.

  15. #55
    Senior Member velasco's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    http://www.metafilter.com/69002/Just...mera-Game-over

    interesting debate here over Rarindra Prakarsa works.

    very much along the lines of our discussion.

    Some comments quoted off the site :

    yeah, it amazes how some utterly banal, heavily-photoshopped images such as these can be seen as anything else than uninspired *** -- they're the photographic equivalent of elevator Muzak, ready to be printed on those calendars they sell at the mall's bookstore, together with the Anne Geddes babies and the remaindered Simpsons merchandise nobody has bought since the mid 1990s.
    posted by matteo


    Those photos are sh*t, and always will be in my opinion, as there's no real creativity with the camera.
    He's great as a touch up artist though..
    I imagine he'd do well in a funeral home.-posted by the_epicurean


    But these images? They're empty. There is no truth here. There is nothing here but very nice colors and lights and sweet lies to make people look happy and idyllic. They're empty photographs made pretty through heavy photoshop work. -posted by shmegegge

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    Bullseye, Velasco!

    These people are the samurais. They will live and die by their code and so they will. Nothing wrong with that really. Calling someone a %$*! won't change a thing. They will remain with their "code" and some of them will be remembered.

    To an artist, Rarindra is up there with the photography and PS masters, from whom we can learn and enjoy the beauty of art.

    Achilles shouted, "Do you know what's waiting beyond that beach? Immortality! Take it! It's yours!" (Keyword is beyond, not that beach).
    Last edited by gpjuson; 8th August 2008 at 11:58 AM.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    Curious soldier:: "Immortality?? You mean death Achilles?!!@%"

    Achilles took out his sword and stab of him.

    Achilles:: "Now, onward my soldiers!! To immortality!!"

    LOL!! From hamburgers to Photoshop. Man, that is a lot of topic to cover. Have fun guys!

  18. #58

    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    aiyoh... enuough is enough... let's draw the line now and close

  19. #59
    Senior Member velasco's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    Quote Originally Posted by mcn View Post
    aiyoh... enuough is enough... let's draw the line now and close
    by you posting that, it will make me reply to you , and have this board bumped up and bumped up even more after i post this to reply to you which is so ironic of your purpose of posting that reply and more ironic for me for replying to your reply which was asking you not to bump up this thread if you want it to close down and forcing me to contradict myself and making myself believe that i'm genius by stringing this world's best one liner.

    oh gosh im so brainy
    Last edited by velasco; 8th August 2008 at 03:21 PM.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Enough is enough? Where to draw the line?

    Quote Originally Posted by velasco View Post
    by you posting that, it will make me reply to you , and have this board bumped up and bumped up even more after i post this to reply to you which is so ironic of your purpose of posting that reply and more ironic for me for replying to your reply which was asking you not to bump up this thread if you want it to close down and forcing me to contradict myself and making myself believe that i'm genius by stringing this world's best one liner.

    oh gosh im so brainy

    aiyoh... i not so branny lah... catch no boss leh!

    can sumplify or not ?

    otherwise, just draw the line now and make peace

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