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Thread: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

  1. #61

    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    aiyah... why care god avantage or no avantage

    want buy lor... even if i buy for ego? what's wrong

    better than have no ego

    all the talk... ultimately, must be hating why so fast come out this d700 less than a year after d3/d300 ... cursing right...

    all this talk... ultimately u all will still go n buy the fx ... sooner than u tink

    tell me someting different lah...

  2. #62

    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    i'm going to say that the main argument FOR full frame seems to be around two things:
    1) iso performance
    2) wide angle

    so the question is, hrm, why, why, why.. not concentrate on APS-C sensor research? compare noise control from the 350d/d50/d70 period, to now.

    also, why not put in more $ on wide angle aspect for crop factor cameras?

    it seems that to solve 1 and 2 above, you are getting all sorts of other problems.. not least withstanding softness, etc.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    Whenever a discussion on FF vs Crop comes up, invariably it leads to the analogy of 35mm vs MF or even LF.

    I am not too sure that the analogy is completely valid. Form factor is the key here. Fact is you can squeeze an FX sensor into a DX body eg D700. And the 4/3 bodies are not that much smaller either. True, cropped lenses are probably smaller but lenses within the range of the average hobbyist would not be that much different.

    I used to think that DX could possibly exist side-by-side with FX because of the former's reach. But I am not too sure now, especially if the FX body could give a cropped image that's equivalent to say the D300's pixel count or better.

    Just MHO
    Last edited by osocan; 22nd July 2008 at 08:32 PM.

  4. #64
    Senior Member yyD70S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    You got to ask Nikon Japan research department for that...

    As for your last point, I do hope that the "future" EXSPEED processor does a better job in correction "specific Nikon lens corner softness and better vignetting control".


    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    so the question is, hrm, why, why, why.. not concentrate on APS-C sensor research? compare noise control from the 350d/d50/d70 period, to now.

    also, why not put in more $ on wide angle aspect for crop factor cameras?

    it seems that to solve 1 and 2 above, you are getting all sorts of other problems.. not least withstanding softness, etc.
    Last edited by yyD70S; 22nd July 2008 at 08:36 PM.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    You must also put yourself in the camera and lens manufacturers shoes, and thereby not fall into their marketing traps.

    As in many marketing strategies, you want to position yourself at many points on the demand curve to maximise profits.

    So thus FF is still a valid product and viable high price marketing strategy for these manufacturers, as it is perceived/felt to be pro, better, full of hard to say advantages, etc etc.

    Photographers must not think like camera/lens manufacturers.

    Photographers use equipment to do or experiment things, not sell equipment to make money, so we ought to see the world, including equipment, differently.

    The things you do ought to determine the equipment you have, and not what the manufacturers want you to buy.

    If you have the BBB syndrome than it is likely you're an equipment collector and not user.
    Last edited by espion; 22nd July 2008 at 10:26 PM.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    I think most of us just don't want to holding the wrong end of the rope. I can see very limited future for DX/Crop with FF the defacto standard. Sure, any digital cameras can take great pictures but that's before I came across the pics from the 1Ds MK II and 5D, I always think digital has some way to go before it catches up with film. Now I know better - because it is FF and no other reason. Then, there is Leaf Aptus and Phase Ones for the 'real' pro....

  7. #67

    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    Well Crop still some way from being dead. With crop sensor, you can squeeze bigger aperture into zoom lens. Just look at Oly and their F2 zooms. People may think we can always crop of a FF and such, but sometime the zoom in with crop coupled with a bigger aperture do help in certain fields. Anyway macro photography also benifits from crop sensors. In the end theres still market for Crops as there is market for FF.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    Please explain why lenses for crop bodies can have bigger apertures compared to FF?

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    Economics.
    It boils down to the money.

    If you have a sizeable collection of expensive and proven to be excellent (from your own use) lenses, then you don't want to spend money again buying another set of lenses made for the smaller format/sensor.

    Camera and lens manufacturers want you to spend money buying more lenses made for the smaller sensor.

    Before digital cameras, they all tried that stupid tactic with APS film cameras in 1996. So what if Kodak, Fuji, Minolta, Nikon, Canon, etc...were backing it. Film makers want you to spend money at the processing and printing labs after buying the film.
    Of course APS failed. It was doomed to fail from Day One. Because it went against common sense economics of the man in the street.
    Last edited by ricohflex; 24th July 2008 at 06:48 PM.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    i think they will alway come out with new product, design, technique or specification to make user to keep on investing. They may claim the new series of Len's are specially built with special coating technique to eliminate internal barrel reflection for FF sensor which are different from conventional type of Len's which built to suit negative blar.... blar..... never end, no end.
    Last edited by lwt11137; 26th July 2008 at 12:57 PM.

  11. #71

    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by lwt11137 View Post
    i think they will alway come out with new product, design, technique or specification to make user to keep on investing. They may claim the new series of Len's are specially built with special coating technique to eliminate internal barrel reflection for FF sensor which are different from conventional type of Len's which built to suit negative blar.... blar..... never end, no end.
    Plus anti shake lenses to come ,heheheheeee

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by nightwolf75 View Post
    it has been discussed to death here and elsewhere.

    sharpness doesn't just come from the sensor (btw, FF sensor doesn't offer any significant advantage of sharpness over DX). it comes from (among others) your lenses. and FX sensor demands a lot more of the lenses than your DX sensor. do you have the lenses for it?

    wat do you shoot most often? u know wat u shoot most often, you know which cam to go for.

    other advantage, at least for nikon, is the better (streets better, IMO) hi-ISO performance of the FX sensor over the DX. despite the better EXPEED processor (and the same one on D3) on the d300 compared to the older generations of nikon DX cameras (like its predecessor D200), you put the D300 on ISO3200 (which is its max) pic side-by-side with the D3's ISO3200 (which is not even breaking a sweat for the D3), you will be able to tell the difference in noise levels. dat is the best proof your eyes can see wrt the FX vs DX sensor debate.
    Well since I till now still don't know which format is better can't tell you anything.
    Better for you to decide for yourself.

    Enhance what nightwolf75 mentioned on high ISO performance.
    Did not do a comparision of the 3 cam namely D200/D300/D700 but only for the last 2.
    All ISO 3200. All straight from cam with auto settings for WB as well. You can see obviously the D700 has better Auto WB control over the D300 and less noise.
    Taken this morning various timing.

    Nikon D300, 12-24mm
    ISO 3200, 1/10s, F4 Handheld


    Nikon D700, 14-24mm
    ISO 3200, 1/12s, F2.8 Handheld


    Nikon D300, 12-24mm
    ISO 3200, 1/25s, F4 Handheld


    Nikon D700, 14-24mm
    ISO 3200, 1/50s, F2.8 Handheld

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by lwt11137 View Post
    What are the advantages of a FF cmos sensor let say compare to a 1.5x crop ccd sensor, other than giving new life to old lense. Does it produce more sharp picture quality for normal printing, let say at max A4 size. Please enlighten me, as i am planning to upgarde my Nikon D70s in near future.
    For me, it's the kind of widest i want!

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    The main thing is that the depth of field for FF is less than DX cameras cause for example:

    normal view is 50mm lens on FF you will get a depth of field of a 50mm lens

    On a DX camera to get the same view you need to use a 35mm lens, but depth of field is of a 35mm wide lens (which is greater).......

    perspective for both lenses are the same, unless you move the camera + lens......

    And if you need to use wide shift lenses, you need to get FF otherwise you will crop inot a 24mm shift lens view, and you end up with a less wide lens

    HS

  15. #75

    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by hongsien View Post
    The main thing is that the depth of field for FF is less than DX cameras cause for example:

    normal view is 50mm lens on FF you will get a depth of field of a 50mm lens

    On a DX camera to get the same view you need to use a 35mm lens, but depth of field is of a 35mm wide lens (which is greater).......

    perspective for both lenses are the same, unless you move the camera + lens......

    And if you need to use wide shift lenses, you need to get FF otherwise you will crop inot a 24mm shift lens view, and you end up with a less wide lens

    HS
    Thank you. Well said! Sony used to explain the size of the sensor and its impact on DOF in one of their brochures by comparing the size of the sensors of the p&s cameras with their a-series SLRs..

    Hopefully they will still remeber that there is a "serious amateurs" market and will support FF in that market too.

    -- Marios (still on planning for that lens.. )

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis View Post
    Well since I till now still don't know which format is better can't tell you anything.
    Better for you to decide for yourself.

    Enhance what nightwolf75 mentioned on high ISO performance.
    Did not do a comparision of the 3 cam namely D200/D300/D700 but only for the last 2.
    All ISO 3200. All straight from cam with auto settings for WB as well. You can see obviously the D700 has better Auto WB control over the D300 and less noise.
    Taken this morning various timing.

    Nikon D300, 12-24mm
    ISO 3200, 1/10s, F4 Handheld


    Nikon D700, 14-24mm
    ISO 3200, 1/12s, F2.8 Handheld


    Nikon D300, 12-24mm
    ISO 3200, 1/25s, F4 Handheld


    Nikon D700, 14-24mm
    ISO 3200, 1/50s, F2.8 Handheld


    Wow, same number of pixels but makes the D300 looks like cheap PnS!

  17. #77

    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis View Post
    Well since I till now still don't know which format is better can't tell you anything.
    Better for you to decide for yourself.

    Enhance what nightwolf75 mentioned on high ISO performance.
    Did not do a comparision of the 3 cam namely D200/D300/D700 but only for the last 2.
    All ISO 3200. All straight from cam with auto settings for WB as well. You can see obviously the D700 has better Auto WB control over the D300 and less noise.
    Taken this morning various timing.

    Nikon D300, 12-24mm
    ISO 3200, 1/10s, F4 Handheld


    Nikon D700, 14-24mm
    ISO 3200, 1/12s, F2.8 Handheld


    Nikon D300, 12-24mm
    ISO 3200, 1/25s, F4 Handheld


    Nikon D700, 14-24mm
    ISO 3200, 1/50s, F2.8 Handheld
    The AWB of the D700 is impressive.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    I guess 1 major advantage of FF is the dynamic range. Though not very sure if that is very significant.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    Quote Originally Posted by Henessy View Post
    I guess 1 major advantage of FF is the dynamic range. Though not very sure if that is very significant.
    It's quite significant.
    Canon EOS 5D, 24-70 f/4 L IS, 50 f/1.2 L, 70-300 f/4-5.6 L IS, 600EX-RT. Sigma 12-24 f/4.5-5.6 EX.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Advantage of Full Frame Sensor

    Dennis

    That was an impressive comparison.

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