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Thread: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

  1. #101

    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    And your understanding of subsidy is completely out of this planet.

    So even if the govt sells you a flat $1 below an independent valuation, they have subsidised it?

    Why don't you do a poll, see how many people agree with that?

    Prob only one person who swears not to post here any more.


    Quote Originally Posted by dkw View Post
    Your car analogy is completely wrong. If you look at the buying patterns of HDB flats vs Private, you would see that the choices made are based on VALUE and not PRICE alone. If in the same zone, a HDB flat provides more VALUE than private property, who has 'subsidised' that VALUE? Take a guess, its 3 letters......

  2. #102
    vince123123
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    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    WL: Your statement should be this instead for better accuracy:

    So even if the govt sells you a flat $1 below an independent valuation of another competing product (which may or may not be identical/similar), they have subsidised it?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    And your understanding of subsidy is completely out of this planet.

    So even if the govt sells you a flat $1 below an independent valuation, they have subsidised it?

    Why don't you do a poll, see how many people agree with that?

    Prob only one person who swears not to post here any more.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    And your understanding of subsidy is completely out of this planet.

    So even if the govt sells you a flat $1 below an independent valuation, they have subsidised it?

    Why don't you do a poll, see how many people agree with that?

    hmmm.....

    Okay, say I have a camera, which if purchased new, were worth $1000 at a store. So the market value of that camera would be $1000. Lets say the manufacturer price to the store were $500, giving the storekeeper a $500 profit on each camera he sold. Now say the storeowner's nephew comes in and the storeowner sells the camera to him at $750. He still makes a $250 profit. However, it is still $250 less than what he could have made at market price. Does that constitute a subsidy to the nephew? I'd say it does.

    Lets say Canon only limits the amount of bodies issued to each store (analogy: limited land space).
    Now, you are the lau pan niang (SG citizen/stakeholder), you know you only have a limited supply to make the profit on the camera bodies. How happy would you be that the storeowner sold it at $250 less to your nephew. You might feel quite accepting of the fact because he is a relation (fellow singaporean), but if it were too steep of if the fellow came in and bought another 10 bodies at the discounted price, you might feel differently.

    How can we say that a lower than market price sale does not equate to financial aid (aka subsidy)?

    Taken from dictionary: Subsidy-Financial assistance given by one person or government to another.
    Last edited by dkw; 22nd July 2008 at 08:34 PM.

  4. #104
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    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    If two sides have made their points and there is nothing left to rebutt, then there is no copping out.

    If one side makes a substantive point in robust rebuttal to another's initial point, and the other side says "Aiya I don't want to bother to explain to you, you already fixed in your mindset", then that is copping out.

    Kindly don't quote me out of context.
    And so you are the judge, jury and executioner then? I don't see how you or waileong have expressed anything other than opinion or have substantively rebutted any of my major points. If I so choose not to rebutt a non-rebuttal, is that then a cop out? This is how is always goes with you, deviate far from the topic at hand and get only into the style of the debate. waileong at least stays on the topic, even if he and I disagree vehemently.

  5. #105

    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    1. In marketing, that's what's normally termed a "discount". Else you would see cathay photo and every camera shop claim to give you a subsidy every time they have a sale.

    2. But I'm not interested in your opinion. As I said, why don't we see how many people think your example is a subsidy.

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw View Post
    hmmm.....

    Okay, say I have a camera, which if purchased new, were worth $1000 at a store. So the market value of that camera would be $1000. Lets say the manufacturer price to the store were $500, giving the storekeeper a $500 profit on each camera he sold. Now say the storeowner's nephew comes in and the storeowner sells the camera to him at $750. He still makes a $250 profit. However, it is still $250 less than what he could have made at market price. Does that constitute a subsidy to the nephew? I'd say it does.

    Lets say Canon only limits the amount of bodies issued to each store (analogy: limited land space).
    Now, you are the lau pan niang (SG citizen/stakeholder), you know you only have a limited supply to make the profit on the camera bodies. How happy would you be that the storeowner sold it at $250 less to your nephew. You might feel quite accepting of the fact because he is a relation (fellow singaporean), but if it were too steep of if the fellow came in and bought another 10 bodies at the discounted price, you might feel differently.

    How can we say that a lower than market price sale does not equate to financial aid (aka subsidy)?

    Taken from dictionary: Subsidy-Financial assistance given by one person or government to another.

  6. #106
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    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    with a fair number of well-heeled individuals here such a poll would have been inaccurate.

    here people with top-of-the-line lenses, camera bodies, tripods & the likes everyready to 'outgun' an official wedding photographer. then for some the notion of getting a home is so far off. maybe sg.brides would be more appropriate.

  7. #107
    vince123123
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    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    Nope, I'm not But thanks for the thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw View Post
    And so you are the judge, jury and executioner then? I don't see how you or waileong have expressed anything other than opinion or have substantively rebutted any of my major points. If I so choose not to rebutt a non-rebuttal, is that then a cop out? This is how is always goes with you, deviate far from the topic at hand and get only into the style of the debate. waileong at least stays on the topic, even if he and I disagree vehemently.

  8. #108
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    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    I do not agree that HDB is really subsidised. If it was really subsidised for the welfare of citizens, they should had pegged the subsidy in terms of huge percentage of the so called "selling price" or "market price". By this, whenever there's a fall or rise of the selling price will always be captured at the time of transaction. Then as a citizen buyer, you really enjoy the relief. This could erase / lessen the argument whether the selling price is cost price or free market price to the public.

    This is my opinion judging as a SIN PR view.
    Last edited by shorty; 22nd July 2008 at 09:56 PM.

  9. #109

    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw View Post
    Hilarious really

    Anyhow, I'm not aiming to convert the heathen, history and psychology have shown it is mostly an exercise in futility. However, if you are the neutral observer, hope you have at least an alternate view to the knee-jerk anti g-ment sentiment that pervades.

    Cheers
    I felt your above statement is a bit too strong.
    I believe no one here derives joy from knee-jerking or bashing any public organizations.

    What we are truly interested in, is the fairness in the public housing schemes and how the policies affect our social society in the long run.

    “Subsidy” already has a very bad name to it, didn’t we all agreed that the HDB selling price is always higher than the cost price. There’s really no point for us to harp on this issue, it has shown what kind of attitude the authority has taken toward the people. We have to accept it for the next 4 years.

    Let’s worry for those who are going to make the decision on buying a HDB and those who have committed on the dotted line. What alternatives are there for us to tackle the sticky situations?

    Is a HDB flat or a Resale flat ready worth that kind money?
    I have been asking, what is the value of a HDB flat going to be at year 70.
    Are you able to cash out at that time?
    A lot of people over look the term “99 years lease hold”. Maybe it is human to be short sighted. We all know a car in the 9th year worth very little when compared to its original value. So what is the difference in terms of the depreciation of a Car and a 99 years lease hold HDB flat? And people are still chasing up price for the resale flat like mad.


    About the market value. I am still very confuse.
    Who determine the market value? It is not a competitive and efficient market to start with. So it is never about the strength of the buyers or sellers in the HDB market.
    HDB pricing is the classic Chicken and Egg story.
    Does new flat pricing determines the Resale flat pricing or vice versa?
    Last edited by Silence Sky; 23rd July 2008 at 12:17 AM.

  10. #110
    vince123123
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    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    Which is why I say that the prices chase each other.

    At the start, no resale flat, so HDB price is based on cost price. The first resale flats then base their prices with a premium over the HDB price.

    Over time, HDB saw the gold mine and priced their new flats based on the first generation resale price. The 2nd generation resale prices then went upwards since the new flats are now more expensive.

    And then you rinse and repeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence Sky View Post
    About the market value. I am still very confuse.
    Who determine the market value? It is not a competitive and efficient market to start with. So it is never about the strength of the buyers or sellers in the HDB market.
    HDB pricing is the classic Chicken and Egg story.
    Does new flat pricing determines the Resale flat pricing or vice versa?

  11. #111
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    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    Interesting debate I see. Well, I'm in a real life situation here and I have problems coping with buying a flat. I like to have a larger unit like a 4/5rm resale because I am staying with my parent. I have plans to have kids and stay there forever cuz I prob cant afford a shift.

    But it costs $450,000 in Bishan for a 15yr old flat of 110sqm. I will need to pay an interest of almost the principal. Hence by the age of 60 plus, I have paid up the flat and left with no money for the retirement. And yes, there may be a need for cash payment as the CPF gets reduced along the way. Ok, I have no choice but to go to the outlying areas where resale 4rm cost $350k. But still, the loan is going to be close to 50% of principal.

    I figured out my children may have to take over the loan just like how they do it in Japan in future. Unless I decide to cramp 5 people into a 3 rm flat with 1 toilet in the future, I will have to take the tough route ahead.

    I only wished that HDB is really affordable but den again, it still is in the sense that I can afford to pay for it. Its just that I will have to work forever.

    Sigh...

  12. #112

    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    I don't see the problem. We're not asking people here if flats are affordable. Only asking them if flats are "subsidised".


    Quote Originally Posted by sORe-EyEz View Post
    with a fair number of well-heeled individuals here such a poll would have been inaccurate.

    here people with top-of-the-line lenses, camera bodies, tripods & the likes everyready to 'outgun' an official wedding photographer. then for some the notion of getting a home is so far off. maybe sg.brides would be more appropriate.

  13. #113
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    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    Quote Originally Posted by hazmee View Post
    S$300,000 for a resale 4 room flat at Clementi... that's only half a peanut. No sweat. 30 years 'hutang', plus interest... no problem. That's quite cheap! Thank you HDB!
    you sure??? That is cheap for a 4 room flat at clementi area. I expect it to cost more than S$400,000. I try to bid for a new 4 room flat at clementi central area and it already cost like $220,000 - $270,000.

  14. #114
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    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    Quote Originally Posted by engr View Post
    Interesting debate I see. Well, I'm in a real life situation here and I have problems coping with buying a flat. I like to have a larger unit like a 4/5rm resale because I am staying with my parent. I have plans to have kids and stay there forever cuz I prob cant afford a shift.

    But it costs $450,000 in Bishan for a 15yr old flat of 110sqm. I will need to pay an interest of almost the principal. Hence by the age of 60 plus, I have paid up the flat and left with no money for the retirement. And yes, there may be a need for cash payment as the CPF gets reduced along the way. Ok, I have no choice but to go to the outlying areas where resale 4rm cost $350k. But still, the loan is going to be close to 50% of principal.

    I figured out my children may have to take over the loan just like how they do it in Japan in future. Unless I decide to cramp 5 people into a 3 rm flat with 1 toilet in the future, I will have to take the tough route ahead.

    I only wished that HDB is really affordable but den again, it still is in the sense that I can afford to pay for it. Its just that I will have to work forever.

    Sigh...
    I strongly agree with you, with such rising living price and uncertainty in job market. How can young couples settle down, have kids and have barely enough for retirement? No way.
    Housing loan now alone is enough to tie down a couple for life.

  15. #115
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    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    And I strongly agree with Vince and Waileong for what they say. Least they voice out what most people would want to say.

  16. #116
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    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    say so much for what? complaining so much without action for what?

    show something next GE la! 66.6% going up or down? u decide la.

  17. #117

    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    How else do you think the people in charge can make the young people work really hard for the money and be slaves to corporate singapore?

    I would do the same thing if i'm the government. I'll try to get all the young people to sign on the dotted line for that big ticket items like house and cars. Since the prices of these big ticket items are set by me, I will set the price of the items as pricey as i can possibly can. Then... they will have to slog hard for the money and create economic wonders for singapore with all the sacrifices of their youth. They will not question me as they don't have the time to even think and they cannot complain much as most of them will be working for corporate singapore. If they get out of the line, i can use my corporate Singapore's influence to force them to toe the line... I can even threaten them to fire them or even to the extent of getting all the subsidiaries and sister companies to blacklist them. This is what i call the Singapore Inc.

    Comon.. haven't u see it coming when this government has been voted into power. I am afraid to think of the future of Singapore.. it had become a place where blunders aren't shouldered by the people responsible and yet these people had been reaping in huge amounts of monthly salary... it used to be our ministers are of the highest calibre... they used to have lots of drive and is very daring in trying out new opportunities but looking at the current batch of ministers. They suka suka set policies without thinking hard and fast.. They don't think of the benefit of the people... they are only concern about the pockets of corporate Singapore. I am beginning to wonder if the minister's KPI's(Key Performance Indicators) are benchmarked at how much money they can generate for Corporate Singapore.

    I sometime shudder to think of my future here... our Minister mentor just said... Singapore is going thru a "GOlden Age"...... How else are we going to reach there without pinching and squeezing every ounce out of the middle and lower class income of the population? Mind you... they make up of the largest population of corporate Singapore. It is definitely coming... look around you.. Do u NOT realize that the middle income family are thinning out?

  18. #118
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    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    Quote Originally Posted by Reno View Post
    you sure??? That is cheap for a 4 room flat at clementi area. I expect it to cost more than S$400,000. I try to bid for a new 4 room flat at clementi central area and it already cost like $220,000 - $270,000.
    The 'cheap' price comes with a bad location. You do the math dear.

  19. #119
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    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    I don't see the problem. We're not asking people here if flats are affordable. Only asking them if flats are "subsidised".
    huh? that would be rather different from how this thread started. but agree the link is there.

  20. #120

    Default Re: How HDB flats are priced affordably !

    We're certainly going through a 'Golden' age, where everything cost as much as its weight in gold... :S

    Ever wonder if CPF actually have enough money to pay all of us back, or is the inflated housing price is a way of turning the table on us? All their goal post moving always makes me wonder...
    Olympus EM-1, 7-14/2.8, 12-40/2.8, 40-150/2.8, 17/1.8, 25/1.2, 60/2.8

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