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Thread: what to do when u cant afford spyder? (monitor calibration)

  1. #21

    Default Re: what to do when u cant afford spyder? (monitor calibration)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alliance View Post
    It doesn't matter whether your LCD is new or not. Just follow the instructions given and make the selectios asked by Adobe Gamma and you should be able to generate a monitor profile at the end of it. As you will be using your eyes to make the necessary judgments, the results may vary but if done right may be better than not having a monitor profile at all.
    Yes it does. Adobe Gamma works on the premise that LCD is factory new. If the LCD is old, Adobe Gamma doesn't work. Also, as person's eye changes contrast/color preference through his life, trusting one's eye in profiling a monitor is a no-no.

    In color management, it's either 100% accurate color or 100% inaccurate color. There is no 50% or good enough, it has to be 100% exact.

    To the TS, if you are serious about improving your photography, proper color management is a corner stone of your foundation, don't stinge on the wrong things. Beg, borrow or share the device.

    The Zohan
    Last edited by Zohan; 23rd July 2008 at 03:21 PM.

  2. #22

    Default Re: what to do when u cant afford spyder? (monitor calibration)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zohan View Post
    Yes it does. Adobe Gamma works on the premise that LCD is factory new. If the LCD is old, Adobe Gamma doesn't work. Also, as person's eye changes contrast/color preference through his life, trusting one's eye in profiling a monitor is a no-no.

    In color management, it's either 100% accurate color or 100% inaccurate color. There is no 50% or good enough, it has to be 100% exact.

    To the TS, if you are serious about improving your photography, proper color management is a corner stone of your foundation, don't stinge on the wrong things. Beg, borrow or share the device.

    The Zohan
    Hi Zohan,

    Could you please clarify what you mean by "doesn't work". I tested Adobe Gamma on my kid's 4 year old monitor and it worked ok to produce a monitor profile. I then compared it against a monitor profile produced using my profiler and it was off but still considerably better than without it. Without the profile, my kid's monitor was absolutely and totally out of whack - I guess because the colour adjustments had been tweaked to hell (by the kids) and due to its age, its probably way off the original factory settings.

    I agree that Adobe Gamma doesn't produce accurate colours - simply because it relies on your eyes instead of a colorimeter to do the assessments. But I think that the question posed by the originator of this thread was what to do if one cannot afford a profiler and presumably he can't borrow/have access to one either or else he wouldn't be asking this question. I'd think that under this circumstance, profiling your monitor using something available free, like Adobe Gamma - with all its weaknesses - is still probably better than doing nothing.

  3. #23

    Default Re: what to do when u cant afford spyder? (monitor calibration)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alliance View Post
    Could you please clarify what you mean by "doesn't work". I tested Adobe Gamma on my kid's 4 year old monitor and it worked ok to produce a monitor profile. I then compared it against a monitor profile produced using my profiler and it was off but still considerably better than without it. Without the profile, my kid's monitor was absolutely and totally out of whack - I guess because the colour adjustments had been tweaked to hell (by the kids) and due to its age, its probably way off the original factory settings.
    I understand where you are coming from. Adobe Gamma can produce 99-100% accurate color provided the monitor is brand new. If not, it's anybody's guess.

    This is the premise I am working from, this forum is the Digital Darkroom. Hence we are looking for 100% accurate colors for the photographer. Half measures are half measures, they don't work 100% well. As you have said you used it on your child's computer, where 100% accurate color is not important, I am assuming that the TS is genuinely interested in getting 100% color.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alliance View Post
    I agree that Adobe Gamma doesn't produce accurate colours - simply because it relies on your eyes instead of a colorimeter to do the assessments. But I think that the question posed by the originator of this thread was what to do if one cannot afford a profiler and presumably he can't borrow/have access to one either or else he wouldn't be asking this question. I'd think that under this circumstance, profiling your monitor using something available free, like Adobe Gamma - with all its weaknesses - is still probably better than doing nothing.
    From what the TS said, he did not state that he could not borrow one. I can also presume he might be able to borrow or pay for a $50 as he did not state otherwise.

    The Zohan.

  4. #24

    Default Re: what to do when u cant afford spyder? (monitor calibration)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zohan View Post
    I understand where you are coming from. Adobe Gamma can produce 99-100% accurate color provided the monitor is brand new. If not, it's anybody's guess.

    This is the premise I am working from, this forum is the Digital Darkroom. Hence we are looking for 100% accurate colors for the photographer. Half measures are half measures, they don't work 100% well. As you have said you used it on your child's computer, where 100% accurate color is not important, I am assuming that the TS is genuinely interested in getting 100% color.



    From what the TS said, he did not state that he could not borrow one. I can also presume he might be able to borrow or pay for a $50 as he did not state otherwise.

    The Zohan.
    Hi,

    Just out of curiosity, could you please enlighten me as why Adobe Gamma will work on a brand new monitor and yet not work with an older monitor.

    Yes, you are right that my kid's monitor is not used for critical photo work. i used it only to satisfy my curiosity over your statement and to find out if Adobe Gamma will produce a monitor profile with it. Surprisingly, it doesn't appear to be that far off from my profiler calibrated monitor.

  5. #25

    Default Re: what to do when u cant afford spyder? (monitor calibration)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alliance View Post
    Hi,

    Just out of curiosity, could you please enlighten me as why Adobe Gamma will work on a brand new monitor and yet not work with an older monitor.

    Yes, you are right that my kid's monitor is not used for critical photo work. i used it only to satisfy my curiosity over your statement and to find out if Adobe Gamma will produce a monitor profile with it. Surprisingly, it doesn't appear to be that far off from my profiler calibrated monitor.
    Adobe Gamma gathers information about your monitor when you run it. Adobe Gamma works on the premise that your monitor is brand new when gathering this information. Over years, the the monitor color drifts. Adobe Gamma doesn't know this information, and hence the results will be different from what the color/contrast actually is.

    I totally understand your POV. The results will not be far off, esp if your kid's monitor is about 1-3 years old. But in photography, where a slight color shift will mean different nuance in the image, color control is very critical. Color management is one the foundation stones. There is no point for half measures.

    The Zohan.

  6. #26

    Default Re: what to do when u cant afford spyder? (monitor calibration)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zohan View Post
    Adobe Gamma gathers information about your monitor when you run it. Adobe Gamma works on the premise that your monitor is brand new when gathering this information. Over years, the the monitor color drifts. Adobe Gamma doesn't know this information, and hence the results will be different from what the color/contrast actually is.

    I totally understand your POV. The results will not be far off, esp if your kid's monitor is about 1-3 years old. But in photography, where a slight color shift will mean different nuance in the image, color control is very critical. Color management is one the foundation stones. There is no point for half measures.

    The Zohan.
    This is interesting information. Just belabouring the point a little bit further - it appears that Adobe Gamma assumes that all monitors come out of the factor with identical colour characteristics. But even with brand new monitors, this is seldom the case. I thought that the idea of calibration is to re-align/re-map the monitors to a determined standard given the drift you mentioned over time and the differences in colour between monitors. So unless the monitor being unable to show certain colours, the use of the profile should result in a monitor that has its colours re-aligned. My profiler has a before and after switch ie it shows the colours with and without the generated profile. It shows that even with brand new monitors, its already out of whack coming out of the factory. So subject to the failing of Adobe Gamma (relying on your eyes to determine the calibration) it supposed to re-align the colours to the standard should it not - regardless of it being new or old.

  7. #27

    Default Re: what to do when u cant afford spyder? (monitor calibration)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alliance View Post
    This is interesting information. Just belabouring the point a little bit further - it appears that Adobe Gamma assumes that all monitors come out of the factor with identical colour characteristics. But even with brand new monitors, this is seldom the case. I thought that the idea of calibration is to re-align/re-map the monitors to a determined standard given the drift you mentioned over time and the differences in colour between monitors. So unless the monitor being unable to show certain colours, the use of the profile should result in a monitor that has its colours re-aligned. My profiler has a before and after switch ie it shows the colours with and without the generated profile. It shows that even with brand new monitors, its already out of whack coming out of the factory. So subject to the failing of Adobe Gamma (relying on your eyes to determine the calibration) it supposed to re-align the colours to the standard should it not - regardless of it being new or old.
    I used Adobe Gamma a long time ago and re-read this document. I assume that it Adobe Gamma still uses the same method as mentioned in this doc?

    http://www.adobe.com/education/pdf/c.../ps7_cib17.pdf

    Adobe Gamma asks for the monitor type since it needs the data for calibration. This data actually changes over time due to phosphor aging but the program doesn't know this. What Adobe Gamma does is to set the correct white and black points for monitor. It doesn't even ask for color matching because there's no way for a program to do it without a hardware calibration. In a nutshell, Adobe Gamma doesn't re-align colors.

    I hope I have answered your question. =)

    That said, our eyes are very very subjective. What you see as being close enough could be a world of difference to another person.

    The Zohan.

  8. #28

    Default Re: what to do when u cant afford spyder? (monitor calibration)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zohan View Post
    I used Adobe Gamma a long time ago and re-read this document. I assume that it Adobe Gamma still uses the same method as mentioned in this doc?

    http://www.adobe.com/education/pdf/c.../ps7_cib17.pdf

    Adobe Gamma asks for the monitor type since it needs the data for calibration. This data actually changes over time due to phosphor aging but the program doesn't know this. What Adobe Gamma does is to set the correct white and black points for monitor. It doesn't even ask for color matching because there's no way for a program to do it without a hardware calibration. In a nutshell, Adobe Gamma doesn't re-align colors.

    I hope I have answered your question. =)

    That said, our eyes are very very subjective. What you see as being close enough could be a world of difference to another person.

    The Zohan.
    Phosphor aging? - I get you now, by old you mean a CRT monitor. My kid's monitor is an LCD which doesn't suffer from phosphor aging. Probably the reason why the profile produced by Adobe Gamma wasn't too shoddy.

    Adobe Gamma has what appears to be a rudimentary calibration for colours. One is required to adjust Red Green and Blue albeit using one's eyes to make the judgement.

    Thanks. Its been an interesting discussion.

  9. #29

    Default Re: what to do when u cant afford spyder? (monitor calibration)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alliance View Post
    Phosphor aging? - I get you now, by old you mean a CRT monitor. My kid's monitor is an LCD which doesn't suffer from phosphor aging. Probably the reason why the profile produced by Adobe Gamma wasn't too shoddy.

    Adobe Gamma has what appears to be a rudimentary calibration for colours. One is required to adjust Red Green and Blue albeit using one's eyes to make the judgement.

    Thanks. Its been an interesting discussion.
    Hi!

    Just for the sake of the discussion, I googled for Adobe Gamma and LCDs. As LCDs age, the whitepoint shifts towards yellow. This will affect overall color. Also, there are some threads on photography groups about Adobe Gamma not optimized for LCDs. There are folks with LCDs that doesn't work with Adobe Gamma.

  10. #30

    Default Re: what to do when u cant afford spyder? (monitor calibration)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    Check to see whether Your video card comes with a monitor adjustment function.

    My Asus card comes with an ATI Catalyst Control Center:



    You need a digital file with full colour specrum and good tonal range e.g. the girl photo I display beside Catalyst and a faithful print of it to tweak the controls by eyes.

    This is a lot better than the freewares I've come across.

    I just tried this similar method out since i'm using ATI control centre thingy also

    The results are pretty good actually... its rather easy to use n i managed to configure both of my LCDS to look the same which realli frustrated me for quite some time when i fail to do it manually.


  11. #31

    Default Re: what to do when u cant afford spyder? (monitor calibration)

    If you are using a Mac, there is a freebie calibration tool available in System Preferences dialogue/color tab/Calibrate.

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