Bokeh and f stops on 4/3 cameras

Hitman · 23rd June 2008

I found this thread on DPReview very useful, it clearly illustrates the difference in bokeh rendering between a full frame and a 4/3 camera, maybe can help newcomers to 4/3 understand the difference in f stops in 4/3 compared to full frame.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=28373201

We all know that the 4/3 have more depth of field... the photographer in the thread just further shows (or proof, if you may) that 25mm f/2.8 on a 4/3 is equal to 50mm f/1.4 on a full frame...

headfonz · 23rd June 2008

Originally Posted by Hitman

We all know that the 4/3 have more depth of field... the photographer in the thread just further shows (or proof, if you may) that 25mm f/2.8 on a 4/3 is equal to 50mm f/1.4 on a full frame...

that statement is a little misleading. i seem to get the idea that you are saying that the DOF ZD25/2.8 @ f2.8 is equal to the Canon50/1.4 @ f1.4 (which is clearly not the case).

it should be that the DOF of the ZD25/2.8 @ f2.8 is equal to the Canon50/1.4 @ f5.6.

selamatlzh · 23rd June 2008

base on my experience is difficult to use f2 and f1.4 lenses on 4/3 lens due to its dof

headfonz · 23rd June 2008

Originally Posted by selamatlzh

base on my experience is difficult to use f2 and f1.4 lenses on 4/3 lens due to its dof

how so? DOF too shallow or difficulty in judging focus due to the viewfinder?

haven't had the chance to use a 1.4 yet, but i do get some misses with the ZD50/2 with the small viewfinder.

alexj · 23rd June 2008

If it's difficult to use f2 and f1.4 lens on 4/3, won't it be more difficult to do so on a full frame? If you want more Depth, you can always stop down...

Hitman · 24th June 2008

Originally Posted by headfonz

that statement is a little misleading. i seem to get the idea that you are saying that the DOF ZD25/2.8 @ f2.8 is equal to the Canon50/1.4 @ f1.4 (which is clearly not the case).

it should be that the DOF of the ZD25/2.8 @ f2.8 is equal to the Canon50/1.4 @ f5.6.

Thanks, that's what I wanted to say, your statement is clearer.

zcf · 24th June 2008

so in term of depth of field, and viewing area
4/3 25mm f/2.8 = APS-C 33.33mm f/4.0 = FF 50mm f/5.6 ?

headfonz · 24th June 2008

Originally Posted by zcf

so in term of depth of field, and viewing area
4/3 25mm f/2.8 = APS-C 33.33mm f/4.0 = FF 50mm f/5.6 ?

yup. looks right.

OlyFlyer · 1st July 2008

Originally Posted by selamatlzh

base on my experience is difficult to use f2 and f1.4 lenses on 4/3 lens due to its dof

Why is that? I have both an f/2 and an f/1.4 lens and use them both wide open if I have to, but I see no problem or difficulty.

selamatlzh · 1st July 2008

It get out of focus easily if not careful, as to compare shooting at say 5.6.

OlyFlyer · 1st July 2008

Sure, at f/5.6 the DOF is larger than at f/1.4. But there is no difference if the camera is a 4/3 or an FF, in both cases you must watch out and be more careful at large apertures. With an FF the DOF is actually even thinner and you must be even more careful.

Mikefellh · 1st July 2008

Originally Posted by selamatlzh

It get out of focus easily if not careful, as to compare shooting at say 5.6.

That's a benefit, not a negative...the whole purpose of shooting with a large aperture is to have a narrow depth of field so the background and foreground is out of focus, and only your subject is in focus.

In FourThirds photography it's actually harder to do due to the smaller sensor...it's one of the reasons why many portrait shooters prefer medium or large film format cameras to even 135/35mm (the so-called full frame) cameras.

aryanto · 1st July 2008

Originally Posted by Mikefellh

That's a benefit, not a negative...the whole purpose of shooting with a large aperture is to have a narrow depth of field so the background and foreground is out of focus, and only your subject is in focus.

In FourThirds photography it's actually harder to do due to the smaller sensor...it's one of the reasons why many portrait shooters prefer medium or large film format cameras to even 135/35mm (the so-called full frame) cameras.

meaning less difficult for the to make mistake? No wonder...

shengliang1981 · 2nd July 2008

I think a small DOF can be a benefit or negative, depending on your needs.

If a large DOF is what you want, using a PnS with small sensor would give the largest DoF at the cost of higher noise.

Full-frame or APS sensor will have a much shallower DOF at the same EFL and aperture, which is useful to isolate object from the background. To get a deeper DOF, will have to use a much smaller aperture which mean you would need to reduce the shutter speed significantly, which may cause blurring. But, larger sensor also means you can use a higher ISO to increase the shutter speed.

The DOF of the four-thirds will be in between a PnS and a full-frame, which in my opinion works just nicely in most cases.

bernards · 2nd July 2008

The additional DoF is a welcome for macro shots.

olymac · 11th July 2008

The original TS in DPR was actually commenting on the "bokeh".

Is bokeh and DOF related? I mean, I have seen really different bokeh effects from dissimilar lenses but similar specs, e.g. Nikkor E 50mm/1.8 and AF Nikkor 50/1.8.

windwaver · 11th July 2008

Originally Posted by Hitman

I found this thread on DPReview very useful, it clearly illustrates the difference in bokeh rendering between a full frame and a 4/3 camera, maybe can help newcomers to 4/3 understand the difference in f stops in 4/3 compared to full frame.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=28373201

We all know that the 4/3 have more depth of field... the photographer in the thread just further shows (or proof, if you may) that 25mm f/2.8 on a 4/3 is equal to 50mm f/1.4 on a full frame...

Well, 4/3 is exactly half of full frame, that's why 25mm f/2.8 on a 4/3 is equal to 50mm f/1.4 on a full frame

olymac · 11th July 2008

Originally Posted by windwaver

Well, 4/3 is exactly half of full frame, that's why 25mm f/2.8 on a 4/3 is equal to 50mm f/1.4 on a full frame

Do you mean that the bokeh of 4/3 is also exactly half that of the 35 mm FF

OlyFlyer · 11th July 2008

Originally Posted by windwaver

Well, 4/3 is exactly half of full frame, that's why 25mm f/2.8 on a 4/3 is equal to 50mm f/1.4 on a full frame

Nope. 25mm f/2.8 is 50 mm f/5.6 on a 35 mm camera like the D3.

OlyFlyer · 11th July 2008

Originally Posted by olymac

Do you mean that the bokeh of 4/3 is also exactly half that of the 35 mm FF

Bokeh is not something you can measure, but of course, as DOF decreases so does even bokeh since it is the way the OOF area is presented. You said it already, two Nikkor lenses with the same focal length and aperture can indeed show different bokeh. Bokeh is created by the way the aperture baldes are formed and the number of them. Also the way the lens is constructed has something to do with it.

23rd June 2008	#1
Hitman Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 22° 11' N, 113° 33' E Posts: 793	Bokeh and f stops on 4/3 cameras I found this thread on DPReview very useful, it clearly illustrates the difference in bokeh rendering between a full frame and a 4/3 camera, maybe can help newcomers to 4/3 understand the difference in f stops in 4/3 compared to full frame. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=28373201 We all know that the 4/3 have more depth of field... the photographer in the thread just further shows (or proof, if you may) that 25mm f/2.8 on a 4/3 is equal to 50mm f/1.4 on a full frame... __________________ Pictures always should have a special story behind it or a special meaning to the photographer.

23rd June 2008	#3
selamatlzh Gallery Subscriber Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Sinagpore Posts: 849	Re: Bokeh and f stops on 4/3 cameras base on my experience is difficult to use f2 and f1.4 lenses on 4/3 lens due to its dof __________________ Visit my Homepage

23rd June 2008	#5
alexj Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 77	Re: Bokeh and f stops on 4/3 cameras If it's difficult to use f2 and f1.4 lens on 4/3, won't it be more difficult to do so on a full frame? If you want more Depth, you can always stop down...

24th June 2008	#7
zcf Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: 270 degree of Singapore Posts: 6,689	Re: Bokeh and f stops on 4/3 cameras so in term of depth of field, and viewing area 4/3 25mm f/2.8 = APS-C 33.33mm f/4.0 = FF 50mm f/5.6 ? __________________ Sony Alpha 700 hobbyist

1st July 2008	#10
selamatlzh Gallery Subscriber Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Sinagpore Posts: 849	Re: Bokeh and f stops on 4/3 cameras It get out of focus easily if not careful, as to compare shooting at say 5.6. __________________ Visit my Homepage

1st July 2008	#11
OlyFlyer Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europe, Sweden, outside Lund Posts: 2,038	Re: Bokeh and f stops on 4/3 cameras Sure, at f/5.6 the DOF is larger than at f/1.4. But there is no difference if the camera is a 4/3 or an FF, in both cases you must watch out and be more careful at large apertures. With an FF the DOF is actually even thinner and you must be even more careful. __________________ Welcome to my Blog: http://olyflyer.blogspot.com/

2nd July 2008	#14
shengliang1981 Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Sengkang Posts: 1,349	Re: Bokeh and f stops on 4/3 cameras I think a small DOF can be a benefit or negative, depending on your needs. If a large DOF is what you want, using a PnS with small sensor would give the largest DoF at the cost of higher noise. Full-frame or APS sensor will have a much shallower DOF at the same EFL and aperture, which is useful to isolate object from the background. To get a deeper DOF, will have to use a much smaller aperture which mean you would need to reduce the shutter speed significantly, which may cause blurring. But, larger sensor also means you can use a higher ISO to increase the shutter speed. The DOF of the four-thirds will be in between a PnS and a full-frame, which in my opinion works just nicely in most cases.

2nd July 2008	#15
bernards Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 884	Re: Bokeh and f stops on 4/3 cameras The additional DoF is a welcome for macro shots.

11th July 2008	#16
olymac Deregistered Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 714	Re: Bokeh and f stops on 4/3 cameras The original TS in DPR was actually commenting on the "bokeh". Is bokeh and DOF related? I mean, I have seen really different bokeh effects from dissimilar lenses but similar specs, e.g. Nikkor E 50mm/1.8 and AF Nikkor 50/1.8.