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Thread: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

  1. #81

    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    Been reading the thread so far. To be honest, I've been avoiding the portraits section because of the same reason, not the xmm syndrome, but rather the pictures are almost churned out from a similar source, though from different people. I choose not to view it, however many people still do. It's a matter of preference I guess.

    As to what Mattlock mentioned, he likes to share his pictures, and DP likes to see good pictures and giving views. I'm sure there's plenty of people who have the same sides, so why not try to cater to both groups? Opening up one section for sharing, and the other for a more serious view?

    We can't cater to everybody as this is still a free for all forum, but catering to 2 distinct groups shdn't be hard right?

    As to giving comments, if the comments are too harsh, the mods are there to step in. While it may be subjective what is harsh, if one doesn't feel comfortable, there's always the PM and mods to talk to. I guess for me I see beyond that - how to improve. If several people comment on the same thing - it's probably time to relook at what works and what doesn't.

    The chinese has this saying, good medicine are bitter - they might be brunt, but the fact that the comments hit the nail means they are actually helping you in a way. I guess taking things with an extra pinch of salt or two helps too (if it's not too salty) - trying to focus on the impt parts and ignoring the harsh/rude stuff?

  2. #82

    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    BTW, I don't mean the serious critique section to be pure elitist, but rather, a place where you're expected to show stuff you feel is something you can deliver, or getting honest comments nailed on the parts where you've gone wrong, while the sharing section is more casual, less serious etc.

    I understand there is already a critique section, but I see how/why it doesnt go well - it's a general critique section. Perhaps opening up critique section to more sub sections wld help?

  3. #83

    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    and one time at band camp........
    Objection !!!

  4. #84

    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    Quote Originally Posted by antacid View Post
    my mother used to tell me, "if you have nothing good or useful to say, then don't say anything." i didn't always listen to her, but there are times i wish i had. so, can we make an effort to listen to my mother here?
    ((=
    The thing that's bad about this is, how do people improve if no one tells them what is bad about their photos? If they don't know what is wrong, how do they fix it?
    Available as a model, photographer, and art director/stylist.

  5. #85

    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    Quote Originally Posted by zan82 View Post
    BTW, I don't mean the serious critique section to be pure elitist, but rather, a place where you're expected to show stuff you feel is something you can deliver, or getting honest comments nailed on the parts where you've gone wrong, while the sharing section is more casual, less serious etc.
    But posters in the Portraits forum (the sharing section, not the special C&C section) almost always say "Please C&C"! If they ask for it, they will get it.
    Available as a model, photographer, and art director/stylist.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Leong23's Avatar
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    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    The outcome will depend on the majority of the posting and giving comments.

    Example

    Forum A
    If a person post a CMI photo, it only receive bad comments, or worst, no one even wanted to at all. It is then up to the mindset of the person, to quit or to continue to improve and prove himself.

    Forum B
    If a person post a CMI photo,it receive lots of praise, because those giving praises will hope that his person will also praise their CMI photo. That person, as a newbie will be so happy and thought that he is talented. Although there will be one or two bad comments on his photo, to him it not important as to him, they are those usual mean and nasty persons.
    It might strike him someday to realise that his photo is actually CMI or he will be living in his fairlytale happy ever after.

    ************************************************** **********************************

    Let me quote you a real example i came across, a CSers had post a series of CMI macro shot before in CS, he got tons and tons of praises until he thanks everyone that he is so grateful and everyone in CS actually inspire him to further this hobby.
    1 week later, this guy full of confident, decided to post the same series of photo in another forum for C&C. There are two section of C&C in that particular forum, beginner and advance.
    Full of confident he gotten of CS, he posted on the advance section, the result is lot of helpful comments on why his photo are bad. From that day onward, the person had disappear from that forum and CS.

    So, whose fault....to me is those people in CS who give him the false impression on his CMI photo.
    (Imaging Paris Hilton wake up someday and realise that she is actually living in the false world like in the movie Matrix, will she choose to fight the machine or prefer to plug-in back to the Matrix and continue her dream.)
    Last edited by Leong23; 16th June 2008 at 02:47 AM.

  7. #87

    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    I read a few of the posts on this thread and they are discouraging.

    However, the show must go on, one way or another.

    So, on it must go.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    I'll be blunt here
    What makes you think that you are in any position to critique anyone's work?
    A photograph is a very personal thing, and most people have problems with critiquing because making a criticism of anyone's work requires a certain understanding of what the person is going for in a photograph.

    Most people end up criticising small things like sharpness and hair because honestly, there's either little else to critique or the person doesn't seem to be interested in finding out more about what the person is trying to say in the work.

    We've had very good work from louis lau, skye tan, jingna being posted in the past and they mostly don't post anymore, and even though it's not always their best work but I doubt that most people are in a position to critique their work.

    The situation here is not about critique standards. This is my opinion.

    What makes anyone a critic? As long as one has eyes and opinions, and is willing to share them.

    Indulge me for a moment. I know nuts about photography, I get intimidated by an pns. I am a commercial client or a potential customer in a gallery. I see a series of images or a print hanging on the wall of a gallery. Am I qualify to criticize? According to Mattlock, I am not. According to reality, I am the critic who words really counts.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    I would like to post photos on Clubsnap without having to put it up for "critique" many times
    It is nice to have an environment that isn't so heavy on the idea of "critique" but rather just sharing.

    I don't think it's a problem that the type of photos being posted are snapshots or just XMM shots.
    In fact, the more the merrier. I would encourage everyone to post their photos.

    The truth is, many very good photographers have a veryvery thin skin and wouldn't be able to stand up to criticism.

    What is needed is not more criticism. What is needed is an environment of sharing where people feel comfortable putting up works, and good work and a positive environment will encourage more people to post more work, and better work hopefully.

    I think Mattlock had provided the answer why some stopped posting. Should we lower ourselves, promise to shower praises, in order to lure them back?

    I can understand, too much is at stake for those who depends on photography for their rice bowl. However, if they cannot deal with online criticism, god help them with their clients.


    The sharing attitude in CS is to be applauded and nurtured. However, we must keep those whom we see growing up around, to continue on. Now, they all leave after they matured. What is left behind?

    The current situation is this.

    Someone posted a picture. The picture clearly CMI, or at least there are numerous flaws. The subject of the picture is a young woman, who maybe pretty, but the picture does not show her in the best of light.

    In no time, the horde will rush in to shower their praises. How does this reflect on CS?


    Jing, did not mean to step on your toes, but your 2 posts sum it all up.

    The key here is, how to make this a better forum.
    deadpoet
    my portfolio

  8. #88

    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    Mattlock, a little bit of OT won't die especially when talking to a very very old friend and especially so difficult to see him so serious in a topic

    Now I get to the topic proper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet View Post

    The key here is, how to make this a better forum.
    Lets lead by examples. DP, since this thread is started by you and wanting to see the improvement of the Portrait Forum, why not you start posting and hoping the rest will follow.

    Now it is not how to make the Portrait Forum second to none, rather how to encourage the photographers to start posting their good works again.

  9. #89
    Member Taurean's Avatar
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    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    Somtimes I feel like CS is not going anywhere with the kind of response in the galleries to honest critique.

    I myself don't feel like sharing comment after I see the kind of defensiveness or worse still, group-defenses go up.

    Was speaking with another long-time CSer over coffee last night. And he had already decided to pull out most of his activities from the forum, quoting disgust and politics. It is sad to see such happen. And it isn't the first time to see such good people leave.
    Last edited by Taurean; 16th June 2008 at 09:10 AM.

  10. #90

    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobman View Post
    Lets lead by examples.
    I think this is the best way forward.

    To all of us who care, about our own standards, and about the quality of this forum, Please be your own brutal critique and only post the top 5 (at most top 10!) best photos of each work session.

    As more experienced bros begin sharing their works (lead by example), and amateurs/beginners (like the rest of us) start to raise the bar for our own selves, I hope the "GWCs" will have to make a call as to:

    1) Slow down, think, plan, work, self-critique, select,... and then post
    2) Or, go find other forums/venues on the net that are more congenial to XMM Photo floods with every post followed by a corresponding "Swee!!!" thumbs up.

    This will also, hopefully, compel the XMM organizers to arrange sessions with more room for actually "working" with a model instead of the usual, pardon my French, 10fps gangbangs.

  11. #91

    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    Quote Originally Posted by yanyewkay View Post
    just split the Portraits sections into "Beginner" and "Professional/Advance"

    Beginner: for all snapshots/learners wanting comments to improve. Critique corner isn't as good because photogs cannot post a series of photos but allowed only ONE photo. For those who cannot stand to see lousy snapshots or portraits can just skip this section.

    Professional/Advance: For all seasoned shooters who want to showcase their skills and works. Need not be "professionals" earning money from photography but can also be "Advanced" shooters who have good directorship over the models instead of the models "auto-posing" for them. Consolidated good quality works in here for all to drool over and give their 3 thumbsup.
    Perhaps we can have two sub-forums of the Portraits section as:

    1) Portraits: Target Practice
    No limits to the number of pics posted. Members may freely back-pat, cheer, and comment on the beautiful effects of "bokeh", "sweet smiles", and nosebleeds.

    2) Portraits: Thought Practice
    Limit to 3 best portraits per day (similar to critique section). Everyone is free to post (beginner/advanced/etc). Thought process of a particular capture is the center of focus here.

  12. #92
    Member/Tangshooter
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    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    Deadpoet, why are you not posting your shots in CS ?

  13. #93

    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    It is good to see so many good souls still putting in efforts to make this a better place. This forum had gone through a few rounds of drastic changes over the past 2 years. My first time coming here was back in 2003. There were happy people sharing information and healthy exchange of information. Over the years, I read stories how some good friends were formed coming online to the clubsnap forum.

    It is not the old playing ground anymore. This place had turned commercial. It is stuffed with ads panels and opportunities to make money by merchants and students in certain paid advertisement section. Moderators are watching diligently and often able to come in to kill a spot fire efficiently. Overnight, you see information dissappeared and cleaned by mama lemon without a trace especially for spam ads. Nothing should degrade the quality of this forum. Photos, whether nice or desirable is not important anymore. Just fill in the space and hopefully everyone is happy. The benchmark is on satisfaction level.

    It has evolved into a cold platform where people come in, get what they needed and bam, off they go. This forum is not about friendship anyone. So in case anyone try to come in and look for old flames, they may not likely find it.

    You want to improve? Read sticky articles. You want to know the rules, read the stickies. Almost everything is available, we dont need to share much in fact. Just come to kopitiam, talk rot and be entertained.

    DP is trying to do good by shooting his load into people with high egos. His style is to rebuke. Somehow, he had gone alot more mild over the years after being slammed for being immature. But do people take him as a form of entertainment or as someone offering a sincere advice?

    Moving forward, what is the objectives of coming the club or posting pictures in the CS forum?

  14. #94

    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet View Post
    I read a few of the posts on this thread and they are discouraging.

    However, the show must go on, one way or another.

    So, on it must go.




    What makes anyone a critic? As long as one has eyes and opinions, and is willing to share them.

    Indulge me for a moment. I know nuts about photography, I get intimidated by an pns. I am a commercial client or a potential customer in a gallery. I see a series of images or a print hanging on the wall of a gallery. Am I qualify to criticize? According to Mattlock, I am not. According to reality, I am the critic who words really counts.


    No you are not the critic who counts.
    Paolo Roversi could post in this forum and most people would only be able to point out how unsharp his photos are.
    By criticising photos bluntly you are assuming that your vision of what a good photo is is universally true, which is a pitfall.

    The trouble with critiques is that it's based on what the critic knows only. And most critics don't know enough to make good criticisms.

    DP, do you really think that the portrait section standard dropped because people are showering too many praises?

    Personally if I see a thread with images I don't care for, it doesn't matter if people shower their praises. It doesn't affect me or my decision to post photos.

    What affects me decision to post photos is whether the place I'm posting has a positive community that I want to share with in general.

    The people whose criticisms affect me are the ones who I respect either in terms of their knowledge and understanding for photography, or their skill in photography.

    That's why I have absolutely no problems with many people posting CMI photos (CMI in your opinion maybe...but to them maybe they see something they want to share)
    Heck, I actually like going through some of them sometimes

    You can improve the portraits forum by doing one thing : Posting your own photos and chilling out abit more.
    This forum shouldn't be elitist. A lot of very good photographers started out posting early works here, two years later they're doing amazing work.

  15. #95

    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    Quote Originally Posted by zan82 View Post
    Been reading the thread so far. To be honest, I've been avoiding the portraits section because of the same reason, not the xmm syndrome, but rather the pictures are almost churned out from a similar source, though from different people. I choose not to view it, however many people still do. It's a matter of preference I guess.

    As to what Mattlock mentioned, he likes to share his pictures, and DP likes to see good pictures and giving views. I'm sure there's plenty of people who have the same sides, so why not try to cater to both groups? Opening up one section for sharing, and the other for a more serious view?

    We can't cater to everybody as this is still a free for all forum, but catering to 2 distinct groups shdn't be hard right?

    As to giving comments, if the comments are too harsh, the mods are there to step in. While it may be subjective what is harsh, if one doesn't feel comfortable, there's always the PM and mods to talk to. I guess for me I see beyond that - how to improve. If several people comment on the same thing - it's probably time to relook at what works and what doesn't.

    The chinese has this saying, good medicine are bitter - they might be brunt, but the fact that the comments hit the nail means they are actually helping you in a way. I guess taking things with an extra pinch of salt or two helps too (if it's not too salty) - trying to focus on the impt parts and ignoring the harsh/rude stuff?
    In the past this question was raised already regarding criticisms which led to the formation of the Critique section.

    Go look at the Critique section and you will find people giving criticism.

    I don't understand why this issue is being brought up again

  16. #96
    Senior Member Leong23's Avatar
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    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    Quote Originally Posted by Taurean View Post
    Somtimes I feel like CS is not going anywhere with the kind of response in the galleries to honest critique.

    I myself don't feel like sharing comment after I see the kind of defensiveness or worse still, group-defenses go up.

    Was speaking with another long-time CSer over coffee last night. And he had already decided to pull out most of his activities from the forum, quoting disgust and politics. It is sad to see such happen. And it isn't the first time to see such good people leave.
    Not suprising, with lots of recent discussion/agurement in CS, think more will be less active in CS.

  17. #97
    Senior Member ZerocoolAstra's Avatar
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    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    i hope this won't be the case.
    I myself joined CS not long ago, and have found my interest in photography boosted tremendously by this forum.
    It would be a pity if those with the skills and knowledge leave this forum, because then it'd become the blind leading the blind.

    Here is my humble wish for the galleries & critiques section:
    1) TS put some thought into his/her photos before posting up. Should always be striving to post a better photo than previously.
    2) Other members offer constructive criticism. Suggest ways to improve the shot in future. Spot detailed mistakes that TS might have missed.
    3) TS hopefully will feel encouraged to shoot some more, keeping in mind the pointers that were offered.

    Perhaps this is only a dream...
    Every month, more and more people own digi cams, so it'd be hard to stem the flow of people wanting to post their photos and share. There are tons of horrible photos on flickr, facebook, multiply, myspace, etc. I hope CS will not degenerate that way.

  18. #98

    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    DP, like what you've said, no one can stop CSers from putting good/bad pics. True.
    And yes, some pics are so awful and based on what you have written, do not even deserve to be up on CS. True, again.
    The point is that if you want other CSers to provide true, brutal, honest, franks opinions to make set CS apart from the rest then I think it may not work.
    No one's stopping you from giving such feedback after all it's yr POV but I honestly dont think yr suggestion will fly .

    If you like it, say it else skip it.
    After all, a forum is a forum and not everyone can be like you, Deadpoet.
    Some of us can be like you but I believe what matters most is humility, which is lacking in some of us here.
    My 2-yen.
    Last edited by major_tom; 16th June 2008 at 11:27 AM.
    "ashes to ashes; funk to funky..we know major_tom's a junkie
    strung out on heaven's high....."

  19. #99
    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    i feel that it is the numbers that counts

    what is needed are more good quality images to inspire others to better themselves
    right now the majority of images are of a certain standard

    so instead of ranting lets go out and shoot more and post more

    ask not what other can do for CS
    but about what you can do for CS

    every image counts

  20. #100
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: A challenge to all, to make our Portrait Forum second to none!

    Quote Originally Posted by contaxable View Post
    It has evolved into a cold platform where people come in, get what they needed and bam, off they go. This forum is not about friendship anyone. So in case anyone try to come in and look for old flames, they may not likely find it.
    Different people come to CS for different reasons.

    Many people drop out of CS because of different reasons too.

    The membership of CS has grown over the years. As CS grows it has to change. CS is now a community that caters for the largest denominator - amateurs like us who may not be likely to make it to the top but there is nothing to stop us from enjoying photography.

    Digital camera has democratised photography making it easily and cheaply available to all of our comrades. This is power to the people.

    As all these developments take place and with the surge of more photographers, there will be more levelling in the standard of photography we see in P&P and elsewhere. It just that it is less elitist and more mass appealing. I don't know whether it is a good and bad thing.

    Regardless to what is happening here those who are hungry enough to want to rise to the top will find the ways to do it either quietly off the net or noisily in photo forums.

    Meanwhile our P&P is always be our P&P which from time to time will continue to entertain us with its offer of 10 pages of racequeens.
    Last edited by Sion; 16th June 2008 at 12:17 PM.

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