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Thread: Problem with color

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by lennyl View Post
    My head hurts (it being 1:30 a.m. here may have something to do with it) but every time I think I understand color management, someone proves me wrong.

    When you say "the OS also needs to have the same profile", where is the profile from? My monitor profile (under Display Properties, Settings, Advanced, Color) is the one generated by Spyder 2 Pro and have no relationship to the color space used in my images.

    I admit to being a newbie in color management. If it is easier pointing me to a website to read up on it, please do so. Thanks.
    the same profile should be injected inside PS & the properties in your OS.

    the profile can be from your spyder2 on your monitor
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by mismis View Post
    Can anyone help me with my color problems?

    This is currently my workflow,

    Does anyone know what is wrong?

    Saved file information:

    Color space: RGB
    Profile name: sRGB IEC 61966-2.1

    Im running a mac and my internet browser is firefox
    Hello,

    Your color setup in photoshop is alright. The other thing that you need to do is to determine your soft proof destination, it's under the 'View' option. Make sure that it's on Monitor RGB and turn on soft proofing (ctrl Y) when you are doing images for monitor output. It is *crucial* that your soft proof is setup properly. Your image will look the same in photoshop, icc and non-icc aware programs.

    Wes

  3. #23

    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by wesley View Post
    The other thing that you need to do is to determine your soft proof destination, it's under the 'View' option. Make sure that it's on Monitor RGB and turn on soft proofing (ctrl Y) when you are doing images for monitor output. It is *crucial* that your soft proof is setup properly. Your image will look the same in photoshop, icc and non-icc aware programs.
    I actually tried this out before and someone told me it was the wrong thing to do, this was the converstion:

    Me:
    "
    Im working in adobe RGB(199)

    Doing all the photoediting, then converting to S RGB IEC61966-2.1, then saving the file as a JPEG.

    When I do this, my saved file looks almost identical to the image I edited in photoshop, which is great.

    But When I upload the file onto websites like flickr, I see that there is definitely a loss in color.

    If I go to view-> proof colors, and I click it, then the colour problem eliminates and that is essentially the image I am getting when I upload the picture.

    Does this mean I should leave proof colors on?

    "

    Him:
    "
    What you are seeing is the difference between *your* display profile and sRGB. If you proof for your screen, it'll look good on your monitor, but it's a guess what anybody else is seeing...

    Use sRGB.

    "


    Something else I fouind:

    Mac proof is Gamma 1.8. The way it would look in a non colormanaged app on an 'old' mac (running Gamma 1.8 );
    Windows proof is assuming sRGB (so an sRGB file shouldn't change; an AdobeRGB will look 'flat');
    Monitor profile is a non color managed application on your system. (assumes monitor profile: No conversion of colors)

    Dosent that mean that if you monitor proof, you're essentially throwing colour management out?
    Last edited by mismis; 12th June 2008 at 12:55 AM.
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  4. #24

    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by Del_CtrlnoAlt View Post
    the same profile should be injected inside PS & the properties in your OS.

    the profile can be from your spyder2 on your monitor
    Spyder2 is a monitor calibrating device right?

    So assuming you're editing in Adobe RGB 1998 workspace, you would want your operating system display to be in Adobe RGB 1998 as well?
    Xti + grip + Really right stuff L-plate.

  5. #25
    Member lennyl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by mismis View Post
    Spyder2 is a monitor calibrating device right?

    So assuming you're editing in Adobe RGB 1998 workspace, you would want your operating system display to be in Adobe RGB 1998 as well?
    Spyder2 is a hardware calibrator, yes.

    A monitor profile alters the colors as displayed on a monitor. How would a generic profile (like Adobe RGB) knows what correction is needed on my monitor to display color correctly? And if an application is color space aware, why would I need to tell the OS what color space the app. is displaying?

    Again, I repeat I am a newbie in terms of color management, and am not disagreeing for the sake of argument, but hoping to learn.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by mismis View Post
    I actually tried this out before and someone told me it was the wrong thing to do, this was the converstion:

    Me:
    "
    Im working in adobe RGB(199)

    Doing all the photoediting, then converting to S RGB IEC61966-2.1, then saving the file as a JPEG.

    When I do this, my saved file looks almost identical to the image I edited in photoshop, which is great.

    But When I upload the file onto websites like flickr, I see that there is definitely a loss in color.

    If I go to view-> proof colors, and I click it, then the colour problem eliminates and that is essentially the image I am getting when I upload the picture.

    Does this mean I should leave proof colors on?

    "

    Him:
    "
    What you are seeing is the difference between *your* display profile and sRGB. If you proof for your screen, it'll look good on your monitor, but it's a guess what anybody else is seeing...

    Use sRGB.

    "
    Hi,

    There are a few things that needs to be cleared up:

    1. When a monitor has been profiled by a color calibration device. The color/contrast/brightness are adjusted a known color standard. This applies to Macs or PCs.

    2. So when your Mac or PC has been profiled, (assuming the screens are new) the colors for a sRGB image should look the same in Firefox. I just tested an image on both Mac and PC, the look extremely close in color and contrast. They are virtually identical.

    3. Hence, when the softproof is defined as Monitor Proof and turned on, your sRGB image will look the same in Photoshop, Windows Fax Viewer, Firefox & Safari.

    Quote Originally Posted by mismis View Post

    Something else I fouind:

    Mac proof is Gamma 1.8. The way it would look in a non colormanaged app on an 'old' mac (running Gamma 1.8 );
    Windows proof is assuming sRGB (so an sRGB file shouldn't change; an AdobeRGB will look 'flat');
    Monitor profile is a non color managed application on your system. (assumes monitor profile: No conversion of colors)
    Mac gamma has been set at 2.2 for most of the macs for the last few years. Btw, please note that I am not a color professional. I am currently running both a Mac and a PC, and the method I have used works for both me and my clients when the files are view on their computers.

    Best
    Wes
    Last edited by wesley; 12th June 2008 at 05:42 AM.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by lennyl View Post
    A monitor profile alters the colors as displayed on a monitor. How would a generic profile (like Adobe RGB) knows what correction is needed on my monitor to display color correctly? And if an application is color space aware, why would I need to tell the OS what color space the app. is displaying?
    Maybe this can help:

    1. The sRGB or AdobeRGB (eg. adobe1998.icc) profile describe a color space. They are NOT to be used for a monitor.

    2. When you profile your monitor, a file is created to align or correct your monitor's color/contrast characteristics to a known standard. This file has the same .icc extension.

    So although they have the same file extension and are both called profiles, they work differently.

    Wes
    Last edited by wesley; 12th June 2008 at 05:26 PM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by Del_CtrlnoAlt View Post
    the same profile should be injected inside PS & the properties in your OS.

    the profile can be from your spyder2 on your monitor
    Hello,

    Unfortunately I have to disagree with this, the monitor profile must NEVER be used in Photoshop. The monitor profile is used to adjust the colors/contrast/brightness of the monitor, it has nothing to do with Photoshop. Also, the color profiling device should also have set the profiled icc file as a default setting in Display Properties.

    Best
    Wes
    Last edited by wesley; 12th June 2008 at 05:43 AM.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Problem with color

    Hi there,

    Just some tips for you. I am using both a Mac and PC so color management can be quite a pain if you don't know what you are doing.

    1. Do not double profile your monitor. That means after calibration, using the calibrated ICC profile on Adobe Photoshop is a big no-no. Calibration only sets your monitor to a certain standard but you must stick with either sRGB or Adobe RGB and nothing else.
    2. Stick with sRGB in Photoshop if you are editing photos for prints. Most photo labs uses this anyway. Unless you have a 10-ink printer at home, using Adobe RGB won't do much justice to your prints anyway.
    3. Before calibration, leave your monitor on for at least half an hour first and keep your display settings to the default value then profile from there.
    4. If you are using the newer iMac, the gamma settings should be at least 2.2 and nothing less.
    5. Soft proofing or pressing Command + Y (like what wesley mentioned) in Photoshop must be turned on all the time. This will ensure what you see in Photoshop is the same colors in Preview, Safari, Firefox...etc.
    6. Use 5500K for photo editing and 6500K for web. Have two profiles for your Mac if possible. Note: Your gray might seems very yellowish on 5500K but your eyes will soon adapt to it in no time.
    7. Don't forget to assign a color profile to your images. In Photoshop, go to Edit > Assign Profile and choose either sRGB or Adobe RGB only.

    Hope that helps. If you are not sure of anything, just PM me. Cheers!

  10. #30
    Member lennyl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by wesley View Post
    Maybe this can help:

    1. The sRGB or AdobeRGB (eg. adobe1998.icc) profile describe a color space.

    2. When you profile your monitor, a file is created to align or correct your monitor's color/contrast characteristics to a known standard. This file has the same .icc extension.

    So although they have the same file extension and are both called profiles, they work differently.

    Wes
    That's my understanding too, thank you very much for clarifying. What threw me off completely was the Mac screen capture that mismis posted, showing "Display Profile" and 4 Adobe RGB choices (among other selections).

    Also, there doesn't seem to be a way to tell Photoshop CS2 to use (or not to use) the monitor profile. I looked through all the settings and there is no "monitor profile" setting. However, it does load the monitor profile as set by the OS, because on my laptop it complained that my profile is invalid or corrupted (the profile supplied by IBM with the laptop - I didn't calibrate my laptop LCD) when Photoshop is starting up.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by lennyl View Post
    Also, there doesn't seem to be a way to tell Photoshop CS2 to use (or not to use) the monitor profile. I looked through all the settings and there is no "monitor profile" setting. However, it does load the monitor profile as set by the OS, because on my laptop it complained that my profile is invalid or corrupted (the profile supplied by IBM with the laptop - I didn't calibrate my laptop LCD) when Photoshop is starting up.
    Hello,

    Sorry, I don't have enough information on your problem. There could be a few ways to solve this issue. One of the ways is to delete the preference files for color settings. Photoshop will then recreate a default setting.

    Btw, if you have not calibrated/profiled your LCD, you are basically working blind from the 1st step. Honestly, the information provided in this thread will not be useful for you. No judgment on you, just stating facts.

    Best
    Wes
    Last edited by wesley; 12th June 2008 at 05:22 PM.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by wesley View Post
    Hello,

    Your color setup in photoshop is alright. The other thing that you need to do is to determine your soft proof destination, it's under the 'View' option. Make sure that it's on Monitor RGB and turn on soft proofing (ctrl Y) when you are doing images for monitor output. It is *crucial* that your soft proof is setup properly. Your image will look the same in photoshop, icc and non-icc aware programs.

    Wes
    Err... I don't think so. Doing this will certainly make the images look identical in PS and FF/IE/... But this is effectively taking monitor profile out of the managed workflow, isn't it?

    quoting adobe:
    Monitor RGB (Photoshop and Illustrator) Creates a soft proof of colors in an RGB document using your current monitor color space as the proof profile space. This option assumes that the simulated device will display your document without using color management. This option is unavailable for Lab and CMYK documents.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by grantyale View Post
    Err... I don't think so. Doing this will certainly make the images look identical in PS and FF/IE/... But this is effectively taking monitor profile out of the managed workflow, isn't it?

    quoting adobe:
    Monitor RGB (Photoshop and Illustrator) Creates a soft proof of colors in an RGB document using your current monitor color space as the proof profile space. This option assumes that the simulated device will display your document without using color management. This option is unavailable for Lab and CMYK documents.
    Hello,

    According to the Adobe quote, No.

    As stated a few posts earlier, "The monitor profile is used to adjust the colors/contrast/brightness of the monitor, it has nothing to do with Photoshop."

    Best
    Wes
    Last edited by wesley; 12th June 2008 at 06:57 PM.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by wesley View Post
    Hello,

    According to the Adobe quote, No.

    As stated a few posts earlier, "The monitor profile is used to adjust the colors/contrast/brightness of the monitor, it has nothing to do with Photoshop."

    Best
    Wes
    That is to say loading the LUT in the monitor profile makes the whole OS environment sRGB?

  15. #35

    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by grantyale View Post
    That is to say loading the LUT in the monitor profile makes the whole OS environment sRGB?
    Apologies, I am not familiar with the color system that the OS runs on. My knowledge is limited to making sure the color/contrast of my images stays consistent from computer to computer, from platform to platform. I do know this, the monitor profile does not make the OS environment sRGB, the monitor profile tells the monitor how to display color/contrast/brightness correctly.

    Wes
    Last edited by wesley; 12th June 2008 at 08:36 PM.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by wesley View Post
    Apologies, I am not familiar with the color system that the OS runs on. My knowledge is limited to making sure the color/contrast of my images stays consistent from computer to computer, from platform to platform. Just to clarify, the monitor profile affects everything you see in Windows or Mac, not only the images but all the color/contrast of the icons, toolbars, wallpaper. Everything.

    Wes

    To my understanding, a monitor profile file usually contains two parts of information:

    1. a look-up table (LUT) which is loaded into the graphics card upon OS startup. This is the calibration part - setting the display to a known white point and gamma (say, 6500K, Gamma 2.2), but doesn't change the gamut. This part could be hardware calibrated or eyeballed.

    2. the actual ICC profile - this is measured based on the calibrated monitor characteristic (in other words, based on the display with LUT loaded). This part must be done with colorimeter.

    The part that affects everything is the LUT, this makes sure the whole OS environment has the correct white point and gamma. However, the saturation (gamut) is not corrected by the LUT and in a managed environment (eg. Photoshop) the color space mapping is performed between the working space and monitor space (based on that ICC profile).

    Last edited by grantyale; 12th June 2008 at 09:53 PM.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by grantyale View Post

    To my understanding, a monitor profile file usually contains two parts of information:

    1. a look-up table (LUT) which is loaded into the graphics card upon OS startup. This is the calibration part - setting the display to a known white point and gamma (say, 6500K, Gamma 2.2), but doesn't change the gamut. This part could be hardware calibrated or eyeballed.

    2. the actual ICC profile - this is measured based on the calibrated monitor characteristic (in other words, based on the display with LUT loaded). This part must be done with colorimeter.

    The part that affects everything is the LUT, this makes sure the whole OS environment has the correct white point and gamma. However, the saturation (gamut) is not corrected by the LUT and in a managed environment (eg. Photoshop) the color space mapping is performed between the working space and monitor space (based on that ICC profile).

    Hi! Thanks for your detailed explanation.

    Wes

  18. #38

    Default Re: Problem with color

    My frustration is the inability to afford a good monitor worth all the management trouble...

  19. #39
    Member lennyl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Problem with color

    Quote Originally Posted by wesley View Post
    Sorry, I don't have enough information on your problem. There could be a few ways to solve this issue. One of the ways is to delete the preference files for color settings. Photoshop will then recreate a default setting.

    Btw, if you have not calibrated/profiled your LCD, you are basically working blind from the 1st step. Honestly, the information provided in this thread will not be useful for you. No judgment on you, just stating facts.
    No offense taken. I'm just giving that example as evidence that Photoshop CS2 reads in the monitor profile and there doesn't seem to be any way to tell it not to. I don't calibrate my laptop LCD because I don't use it for photo editing. My home monitors are calibrated.

    Anyway, I'm not really that worried about the error message, I know all I need to do to solve it is just to assign a different profile to the monitor in the OS. The exact error message, for anyone curious about it, is:

    "The monitor profile 'Lenovo ThinkPad LCD Monitor' appears to be defective. Please rerun your monitor calibration software." and the choices are to ignore or use anyway.

    Under color settings, working space (for RGB) is sRGB and no mention of ThinkPad LCD anywhere in Photoshop.

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