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Thread: Comments directed to models, why not.

  1. #141
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotoudavid View Post
    Will a member be praised if he comments:

    Wow really good skills, this Aunty looks like XMM thru ur lens.
    He'll be told instead:

    人不可貌相

  2. #142

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    Hey guys,

    Weekend coming, it's time to go shooting..

    More productive..

  3. #143

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leong23 View Post
    Setup your tripod early for the fire works.
    Thanks for the tip!

    Have a good weekend!
    Pictures always should have a special story behind it or a special meaning to the photographer.

  4. #144

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    逐客令以下。。。。。。。
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    其身不正﹐其令不行.

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    其身不正﹐其令不行.
    can translate? haha i chao kan tang one...

  7. #147

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrchua View Post
    can translate? haha i chao kan tang one...
    Those who's "thing" is not "straight" will not able to "do" lor. HAHAHAAHA!!!!

    BTW, this phase refer to who huh? Meaning like not very good leh. Later kanna de-register, I dunno ho.

    Cheers!

  8. #148

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    Models and wannabes need to:

    1) Take a good, long, honest look at themselves before stepping into this industry. If you have a thin skin or are insecure, don't even start. If you have a bad uneven complexion, crooked yellow teeth, dirty disgusting nails, boobs that hang down to your elbows, and are capable of only one or two facial expressions, don't expect to get very far and don't expect to get paid. Look in the mirror: do you have healthy skin? Do you have a "spare tire" around your waist? Are your toenails crying out for some TLC? Do your clothes flatter your body, or do you just wearing whatever is trendy?

    2) Think before asking photographers for paid shoots. How much experience do you have? If you have done 10 or fewer photoshoots in the past six months, don't expect to get paid. A portfolio has variety- different outfits, different concepts, different facial expressions, different poses. If you don't have that, don't expect to get paid until you have a decent portfolio. Also, the rule is this: if you ask a photographer to shoot you, expect to do it TFCD/P. If the photographer asks to shoot you, the photographer should expect to pay you.

    3) Practice in front of a mirror. You girls are good at "camwhoring", right? Take photos of yourself with different facial expressions- happy, sad, thoughtful, angry, "fierce", Mona Lisa smile-style- and different poses. Flip through fashion magazines (Vogue, W), look at those fashion ads, get ideas for poses, make-up, hair, clothes and then put your own spin on those ideas. The standing-there-with-hands-on-hips-while-smiling-broadly has been recycled to death. Think about your posture, your shoulders, the position of your feet.

    4) Use common sense. Let's say you see a photographer's portfolio that is 80-90% nudes. DON'T ASK HIM TO PAY YOU TO DO A NON-NUDE SHOOT. What do you think the percentage of nude models he paid is? What makes you think he would pay you to keep your clothes on? Or let's say you see a photographer's ad that asks for TFCD models. DON'T EMAIL THAT PHOTOG AND DEMAND TO BE PAID. That photographer was asking for TFCD models; did you fail reading comprehension?

    5) Use common sense Part II. So you say that you will not do swimsuit/lingerie/nudes. That's fine, I can understand if girls don't wanna shoot nudes. However, what is the difference between having pictures of yourself in a swimsuit on your blog and having a photographer take pictures of you in a swimsuit?? I can't believe how much girls "camwhore" and post lesbian photos of themselves online and then they don't let photographers photograph them in lingerie or swimsuits. What do you think will damage your reputation more: photos of you in lingerie or swimsuit, or photos of you pretending to be a lesbian (e.g. kissing other girls, grabbing your friends' boobs, upskirt shots)? Also, what is "worse": posing Maxim-style in a swimsuit or posing sweetly in lingerie? Spreading your legs in a bikini and pulling on your bikini top, or acting coy in a nightie? What is the difference??

    DULAN!!!

    That's all I can think of for now.
    Last edited by Triazolium; 1st June 2008 at 02:07 AM.
    Available as a model, photographer, and art director/stylist.

  9. #149

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triazolium View Post

    That's all I can think of for now.
    Did you

  10. #150

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    sorry bro, not that i didn't want to reply, but i only saw this at 2 am when i was supposed to start walking to take the bus to the airport.

    anyways - when did i say that commenting on the model shoudl be barred because of any of her feelings? i don't give a damn what models feel, frankly, if i shoot one ever, which is highly unlikely, i will respect her as a person; otherwise if i see a model in a photograph i would probably give her as much respect as i would give the rocks i photograph at punggol. she's just part of a photograph. my main point, which i have repeated myself quite a few times, but everyone seems to be mixing up my opinions with everyone else's - is that what the bloody model looks like has zero to do with photographer - unless he can control it. if a model is ugly, then the photographer can take her from a better angle, if one EXISTS; if a model is pretty, then so what? giving such comments amount to treating the hpotographer like an absolute idiot, from my point of view. it is just like how people who only care about asking what equipment and lens was used to shoot this photograph, when posted photograph is WEB SIZED, is wasting the photographer's time.

    indeed, i do acknowledge your point that such statements MIGHT have merit in improving the photographer. it is also a double edged sword. you have photographers AND you have photographers. you are giving a GOOD situation where your photographer happens to think positively and critically. in a BAD situation, this photographer moves on and blames everything else other than himself. since people seem to do that for his photographs too. model not sharp enough? equipment af sucks. landscape underexposed? wa lau, my camera metering system lousy. model look like aunty? cos she look like aunty la, where got my fault, i cannot make aunty look like xmm what. i'm sure you get what i'm driving at.

    and that, in short, is why such statements should be barred, they end up creating threads like these, where trolls will lurk. the ones who don't care about critique, only about creating some sensational thing where they can vent personal vendettas. to be honest i'm quite curious why you are joining in feeding such trolls too. don't need to even explain basic logical fallacies to them.. if you have followed kopitiam long enough, every bloody post they ever make in response eventually is in essence, an ad hominem rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by pai View Post
    what i was saying was that not commenting on the model out of consideration for her feelings was not a photography related reason. (doesn't mean it's a bad reason btw.)

    i think if someone says kid so cute, food so yummy, it means that the photographer has succeeded to some extent in bringing out the cuteness... yumminess... of the subject. sounds photography related to me.

    so are we talking about the yamapi comment or about the blanket no comment on model thing? if we're not talking about him in particular for this thread maybe we can make a conscious effort not to bring him up again in order to reduce confusion

    i care if the food looks yummy, or if the model looks fat (esp if i'm not trying to make the model look fat!). because i care about whether or not i'm succeeding in making the photograph i want to make.

    someone can say to you: your model look fat. someone else can say to you: your choice of camera angle makes the model look fat. the second comment is more helpful than the first. but both comments are comments about your photograph. and if you think about the first one, it might still help -- because at least it tells you there's something not working about your picture (i am assuming you aren't trying to make a picture of a fat person. just an e.g. lah, i have nothing against fat people -- i am a fat person :P)

    teach the critic to say your technique make model look fat instead of saying eh model fat, and you develop the critic. (maybe in the long run this critic will help develop the photographer)

    teach the photographer to hear "your model is fat" and wonder "hmm why my model look fat?", and you develop the photographer.

    both work right? and i like the second one because a) more direct route to improving the photographer, b) no need to make a new rule about what can and cannot be said.
    but even though i like one more than the other, who says cannot have both right.

    one last detour: i'm bothered by blanket statements about "you cannot say this". if it's wrong, contradict it. if it's right, acknowledge it. why say that it can't be said?

    if you feeling free, can read this piece on what you can't say... it's quite interesting

  11. #151

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by dDarkroom View Post
    Did you
    Did you what ?

    I happen to agree with Triazolium.



    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    sorry bro, not that i didn't want to reply, but i only saw this at 2 am when i was supposed to start walking to take the bus to the airport.

    ...

    and that, in short, is why such statements should be barred, they end up creating threads like these, where trolls will lurk. the ones who don't care about critique, only about creating some sensational thing where they can vent personal vendettas. to be honest i'm quite curious why you are joining in feeding such trolls too. don't need to even explain basic logical fallacies to them.. if you have followed kopitiam long enough, every bloody post they ever make in response eventually is in essence, an ad hominem rant.
    nightmare, isn't that hitting close to home?



    What we are doing here, or more accurately, what I am advocating here is, what commercial and art photographers/models, have been dealing with their entire careers in real live. Only diff is, we here on CS or other similar internet societies, can hide behind our nicks, where the real pros, they have to face all the criticisms head on. Worst, the criticisms are nastier, and the consequences more dire.

    Let's focus on the rant as nightmare had so kindly put.

    Why so many photographers, in their posts, say something like ... "... please do not comment on the model ..."

    Why shouldn't we comment on the models?
    Why such needs to protect the models?
    What are the reasons behind such chivalry?
    Are such acts necessary?
    Are such acts even appreciated?
    I can go on and on ...

    I had mentioned to nightmare somewhere earlier on, I believe that the "protect the model movement", is all due to a fantasy. This fantasy is emotional. I believe many photographers become emotionally attached ( I am making a very clear distinction between ATTACHED and not attracted ) to the model one way or another. Why? I don't think the why is that important and there are probably too many reasons why.

    Photographers feel models in their pictures are perfect, and in fact, in their mind, models become perfect, models as in the person, and here lies the problem. The xmm is so beautiful, eyes so big, smiles so cute, so bubbly, so sweet ..... How can we, critics, dare to comment negatively on perfections.

    From the standpoint of a photographer, or an artist, the model, once transferred in real life onto a picture, as Mattlock had so succinctly put, from 3 dimensional to 2 dimensional, the model ceased to become a person, with blood and feeling, but is merely an object. Do we have a problem criticizing an object? I don't think that is a problem at all.
    deadpoet
    my portfolio

  12. #152

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet View Post
    Why shouldn't we comment on the models?
    Why such needs to protect the models?
    What are the reasons behind such chivalry?
    Are such acts necessary?
    Are such acts even appreciated?
    I can go on and on ...
    From what i can see in CS, there are 2 broad category of models - "professional + semi-pro TFCD " and "friends, family non professional".

    For friends, family and non pro category, it is reasonable to ask for no comment on the models. And as CS members, we would probably not want to comment too much on this group of "models".. call it courtesy, chivalry whatever.

    For the professional + semi professional group, especially if someone is advertising for paid shoots, I would say that if one aspires to be in this category, one should be prepared for constructive criticisms - after all, isn't posing in CS a stepping stone path to modelling for paid shoots ? In the real world, criticisms are part and parcel of the industry.

    It is also important to note that if one is serious about giving comments and criticism, one should behave professionally and comment accordingly. Don't comment for the sake of commenting - ensure that comments are relevant, point out the mistakes and most importantly - suggest ways to improve - thats what constructive criticism is all about.

    If every party exercise discernment & behave professionally, then we should see a healthy constructive criticism culture grow in CS.

    ..

  13. #153

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triazolium View Post
    Models and wannabes need to:

    1) Take a good, long, honest look at themselves before stepping into this industry. ...............




    ..................
    Spreading your legs in a bikini and pulling on your bikini top, or acting coy in a nightie? What is the difference??

    DULAN!!!

    That's all I can think of for now.
    That's a frank and good read for model wannabes, Jenna.

    Simply put, gals,

    be Professional, be Truthful to yourself and be Realistic.
    always the Light, .... always.

  14. #154

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by zero o View Post
    From what i can see in CS, there are 2 broad category of models - "professional + semi-pro TFCD " and "friends, family non professional".

    For friends, family and non pro category, it is reasonable to ask for no comment on the models. And as CS members, we would probably not want to comment too much on this group of "models".. call it courtesy, chivalry whatever.

    For the professional + semi professional group, especially if someone is advertising for paid shoots, I would say that if one aspires to be in this category, one should be prepared for constructive criticisms - after all, isn't posing in CS a stepping stone path to modelling for paid shoots ? In the real world, criticisms are part and parcel of the industry.

    It is also important to note that if one is serious about giving comments and criticism, one should behave professionally and comment accordingly. Don't comment for the sake of commenting - ensure that comments are relevant, point out the mistakes and most importantly - suggest ways to improve - thats what constructive criticism is all about.

    If every party exercise discernment & behave professionally, then we should see a healthy constructive criticism culture grow in CS.

    ..

    I think if the poster wants no comments, that is fair. However, tell the viewers to direct comments only to the photographers, and to not comment on the models, in a portrait forum, is absurd.

    My thread is really NOT about how constructive the critiques should be, but more importantly, why some photographers get all twisted into s knot, when the viewers commented negatively regarding their models ...
    deadpoet
    my portfolio

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by cheeseme View Post
    Those who's "thing" is not "straight" will not able to "do" lor. HAHAHAAHA!!!!

    BTW, this phase refer to who huh? Meaning like not very good leh. Later kanna de-register, I dunno ho.

    Cheers!
    其身不正﹐其令不行.
    I think it means:

    "Cleanse your dirty thoughts first before reading a Chinese proverb."

  16. #156

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet View Post
    Why shouldn't we comment on the models?
    Why such needs to protect the models?
    What are the reasons behind such chivalry?
    Are such acts necessary?
    Are such acts even appreciated?
    I can go on and on ...

    I had mentioned to nightmare somewhere earlier on, I believe that the "protect the model movement", is all due to a fantasy. This fantasy is emotional. I believe many photographers become emotionally attached ( I am making a very clear distinction between ATTACHED and not attracted ) to the model one way or another. Why? I don't think the why is that important and there are probably too many reasons why.

    Photographers feel models in their pictures are perfect, and in fact, in their mind, models become perfect, models as in the person, and here lies the problem. The xmm is so beautiful, eyes so big, smiles so cute, so bubbly, so sweet ..... How can we, critics, dare to comment negatively on perfections.

    From the standpoint of a photographer, or an artist, the model, once transferred in real life onto a picture, as Mattlock had so succinctly put, from 3 dimensional to 2 dimensional, the model ceased to become a person, with blood and feeling, but is merely an object. Do we have a problem criticizing an object? I don't think that is a problem at all.
    Why shouldn't we comment on the models?
    IMO, contrary to what you believe you are reading or what you dont want to accept what most ppl are saying, most ppl here are saying that comments on model should have no ulterior motive, preferably be constructive in nature, and be civil. A good example is all those damning comments from you and yet a lot of members here can accept ... why? ..., even when they are delivered in such a crude manner, you have no ulterior motive to hurt the photographer/s, and you usually give some constructive advices, and IMO very good observation and eagle-eyed spotting.
    The problem is that there are some immature members here who enjoy giving revengeful and hurtful name-calling and thus creating a lot of trolling opportunity for others.
    So far, did you face any objection to your comments lately?

    Why such needs to protect the models?
    What are the reasons behind such chivalry?
    Are such acts necessary?

    This is purely a personal issue. Due to age, culture, background, education,etc... photographers are strangers in a big crowd here. Because you travel widely, more western influenced,etc you tend to have a more open-minded concept of "freedom of speech and thinking".
    Many of us here are big-family orientated, more traditionally brought-up, etc, we tend to treat our "models" more personal, not so much as in sexually-related, but more as in family/friend-related, and naturally be more protective of them, since most of the xmm are still teenagers.
    Naturally, you will not expect any of us to be protective of the real-professional models if we ever had a chance to shoot them as we know they can, and should be able to protect themselves.
    So I hope that you do not need to anger and frustrate yrself too much when ppl are "protective" of their teenage-models here.

    Are such acts even appreciated?
    I believe most of us who are protective of models do not beg to be appreciated. Instead, IMO, we are answering to our own call, and our natural instinct to be protective of the supposedly "weaker" relatives, and like in the jungle, there are predators, and there are preys.

    Photographers feel models in their pictures are perfect, and in fact, in their mind, models become perfect, models as in the person, and here lies the problem. The xmm is so beautiful, eyes so big, smiles so cute, so bubbly, so sweet ..... How can we, critics, dare to comment negatively on perfections.
    This is absolutely rubbish! Maybe you think too mcuh ...


    From the standpoint of a photographer, or an artist, the model, once transferred in real life onto a picture, as Mattlock had so succinctly put, from 3 dimensional to 2 dimensional, the model ceased to become a person, with blood and feeling, but is merely an object. Do we have a problem criticizing an object? I don't think that is a problem at all.

    The problem is, so many of us are not real artists in the true sense. As such, we dont treat our model as an object, but as an image of her. Why not you take out a photo of our leaders and try name-calling in public, and see how others react
    always the Light, .... always.

  17. #157

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    I believe that if a girl is willing to charge people to take pictures of her, then she believes (rightly or wrongly) that she is very very pretty and model-quality. As such, she is fully aware that her pictures will be posted in athe public spece, which means she must accept that there are people that will disagree with her ego. If you think you're so pretty that you deserve to get paid for people taking your picture, then be aware that there are people that will see things differently.

    I think as photographers, we must look beyond the nitty-gritty technical aspects of a picture, and try to see it as a work of art in it's entirety. And therefore, the main subject, the model, becomes a fair target of critique.

    If it's a TFCD or obviously just family snapshots or street candids, of course you can't really comment on the model. But the rules change when it becomes a paid shoot.
    Alpha

  18. #158

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    well, i think with all of this disscussions going on, some o you are still going to stand firm with what u believe.




    Everyone has a different view of this point, and im glad, wih yamapi's outright words ( i dont know whether he has think before he writes)
    we have a forum , that everyone can expressed their views on models, why not






    but reading thru all these pages which ive missed out, i have to agree, that we are models, we shld be allowed to accept comments ( or criticism ) to furthur improve ourself, right?




    Ya those who have known me will know that im not aunty ( how can i be! i talk so much like a lil' kid >.< ) but that day i look sort of mature , hmmmm..
    So yamapi got his hurtful words back by getting deregistered, i guess that was a big price to pay, maybe thn he is wishing he has think of consequences beore lashing out like that hu!
    but if its up to me to has a say, can i PM the moderator and tell them im not offended? its alright?
    because put it in a another way, he had eant that the photo did me injustice? o.O hmmmmm




    posting up a photo in potrait photography, even by the most professioned photographer, will not resist commenting on the model too,
    lo and behold there was so many times, when onviewer stopped and awed by a beautiful photo, it often consists of a beautiful subject in it right( nt the comosition not the correct lighting etc )?
    this does not applies to potrait photography, it applies to landscpes, macro and such too!




    Imagine u shooting a just looking boring everyday clouds , and of coure people will asked, why did u choose to shoot those boring cloud, they look BORING! ( this does not applies to making the boring clouds looking so magnificent and beautiful ), u shld have chosen a clouds at other times, like whn's there a nice colour in the sky, or smth.




    well, i dont know if i get my point across, but i support commes to the model! yeh!

  19. #159

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triazolium View Post
    Models and wannabes need to:

    1) Take a good, long, honest look at themselves before stepping into this industry. If you have a thin skin or are insecure, don't even start. If you have a bad uneven complexion, crooked yellow teeth, dirty disgusting nails, boobs that hang down to your elbows, and are capable of only one or two facial expressions, don't expect to get very far and don't expect to get paid. Look in the mirror: do you have healthy skin? Do you have a "spare tire" around your waist? Are your toenails crying out for some TLC? Do your clothes flatter your body, or do you just wearing whatever is trendy?

    2) Think before asking photographers for paid shoots. How much experience do you have? If you have done 10 or fewer photoshoots in the past six months, don't expect to get paid. A portfolio has variety- different outfits, different concepts, different facial expressions, different poses. If you don't have that, don't expect to get paid until you have a decent portfolio. Also, the rule is this: if you ask a photographer to shoot you, expect to do it TFCD/P. If the photographer asks to shoot you, the photographer should expect to pay you.

    3) Practice in front of a mirror. You girls are good at "camwhoring", right? Take photos of yourself with different facial expressions- happy, sad, thoughtful, angry, "fierce", Mona Lisa smile-style- and different poses. Flip through fashion magazines (Vogue, W), look at those fashion ads, get ideas for poses, make-up, hair, clothes and then put your own spin on those ideas. The standing-there-with-hands-on-hips-while-smiling-broadly has been recycled to death. Think about your posture, your shoulders, the position of your feet.

    4) Use common sense. Let's say you see a photographer's portfolio that is 80-90% nudes. DON'T ASK HIM TO PAY YOU TO DO A NON-NUDE SHOOT. What do you think the percentage of nude models he paid is? What makes you think he would pay you to keep your clothes on? Or let's say you see a photographer's ad that asks for TFCD models. DON'T EMAIL THAT PHOTOG AND DEMAND TO BE PAID. That photographer was asking for TFCD models; did you fail reading comprehension?

    5) Use common sense Part II. So you say that you will not do swimsuit/lingerie/nudes. That's fine, I can understand if girls don't wanna shoot nudes. However, what is the difference between having pictures of yourself in a swimsuit on your blog and having a photographer take pictures of you in a swimsuit?? I can't believe how much girls "camwhore" and post lesbian photos of themselves online and then they don't let photographers photograph them in lingerie or swimsuits. What do you think will damage your reputation more: photos of you in lingerie or swimsuit, or photos of you pretending to be a lesbian (e.g. kissing other girls, grabbing your friends' boobs, upskirt shots)? Also, what is "worse": posing Maxim-style in a swimsuit or posing sweetly in lingerie? Spreading your legs in a bikini and pulling on your bikini top, or acting coy in a nightie? What is the difference??

  20. #160

    Default Re: Comments directed to models, why not.

    In a lot of ways, I am really surprised that this thread had been as civil as it had What happened is a rather eye opening experience in CS.

    To Canonised, we will always disagree on many things, and you are correct, I came from a very different culture and up bringing. I am also more passionate about what I do than most. I am glad you identified the difference of hash comments vs personal attacks. As our model had said it succinctly, I really feel the auntie comments was not a personal attack. Granted, with his checkered background, I was not surprised that he was once again, banished from our realm. He did in fact pointed out with very few words, what the image portrayed. I will stop here on this issue.

    The rest, we all will take different stands, and that is fine. What I am trying again and again, a no comment request, just for the model, is still absurd. This is not the way to stop personal attacks.

    To our model, who was calm and composed in the eye of the storm, I am impressed. Call me in a few years, I will do a killer shoot for you.
    deadpoet
    my portfolio

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