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  1. #41
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    heh heh, actually i not keen on wedding photography... but it's definitely a good way to source for fresh ideas and to renew a keen "eye" for things.

    i tend to buy only sporting magazines - Bicycling, Runner's World, Triathlete - so no prizes for guessing what kind of photos i'm usually exposed to

  2. #42
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    Originally posted by sehsuan
    YSLee, i'm still learning. i acknowledged Wolfgang's advice. are you offering any help here? nope.

    in fact i admit, to my other friends who asked me how the pictures were - they were far disappointing - colour balances were thrown waaaay off, some shots were severely over-exposed. that doesn't even include composition, or rather, the lack of it. did i say all (or even, "any") shots were good? nope.

    i prefer to do sports because i have my background in sports in my earlier days. i doubt you were one in the first place, so please go and challenge yourself for your ippt first. sportspeople can see sports through another viewpoint that you don't possess.

    of all advice and opinions given, only Wolfgang, Binbeto, Dagger and Jeffgoh have given constructive comments/criticism. what are you giving?

    or let's put it this way - for the number of years you've shot, you should be shooting much better than i can, with the equipment you've bought with your own money. and in your way of speech, i'm using something that isn't paid by my own money yet, and i have been shooting experimentally for a maximum of 8 months to date - if i can have shots comparable to your standard, you should go shoot yourself

    keep on trolling if you want.
    sehsuan, in all fairness i think you're reading a bit too much into YS's tone and not enough into what he's saying. he's rather direct, yes, but he's also trying to point out something quite fundamental as well.

    sports is much harder than events, weddings and so on IMHO. very very few people make it as successful sports photogs, but many more make a living from events. and if memory serves me right, YS is a avid cyclist as well, so i'd think he knows what he's talking about when it comes to SACA ITT photos. your comment about his IPPT and sportspeople is a bit uncalled for.

    i'd think you should listen to his experience in this aspect instead of assuming that he's trolling. like you pointed out yourself, he has been shooting for much longer than you have, so he's definitely got more pointers to give you.

    just my 2 cents...

  3. #43
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    Larry, you should have seen his email when i complimented his photos - it's been practically 3 months already, yet he has a strong sarcasm to my using of equipment i didn't pay for, and instead "whined" for. and he also mentioned that he's using a nikon with a 80-200mm paid with his "own money". do i have to explain to everyone that i'm paying it via instalments after a truce with my own family?

    i mean, facts aside, who can take this guy seriously?

    people talk about measurbating camera equipment - similarly i don't have a fantastic bike, but i still use it and ride lots - but i can't be so sure Mr Lee is a gutsy cyclist instead of one bike measurabator.
    Last edited by sehsuan; 21st June 2003 at 02:30 AM.

  4. #44
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    Originally posted by sehsuan
    Larry, you should have seen his email when i complimented his photos - it's been practically 3 months already, yet he has a strong sarcasm to my using of equipment i didn't pay for, and instead "whined" for. and he also mentioned that he's using a nikon with a 80-200mm paid with his "own money".
    ok, i'm not gonna comment on that episode. that's dust under the carpet, split milk, old news and all that. it's not my place to comment anyway

    Originally posted by sehsuan
    i mean, facts aside, who can take this guy seriously?
    i do. i have enormous respect for YS. he's got knowledge and experience which belies his age. all i'm saying is, read past his direct tone (his "sarcasm" as you call it) and listen to what he's really saying.

    another 2 cents. spend it wisely...

  5. #45
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    i can only respect YS if he can just bit the bullet and admit he's still hanging on to the past. anyway, what happened was in my family, not his, so i wonder why he's still hanging on so grudgingly to it even right now.

    anyway, back to the photo. comments?

  6. #46

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    Originally posted by Larry
    ok, i'm not gonna comment on that episode. that's dust under the carpet, split milk, old news and all that. it's not my place to comment anyway

    i do. i have enormous respect for YS. he's got knowledge and experience which belies his age. all i'm saying is, read past his direct tone (his "sarcasm" as you call it) and listen to what he's really saying.

    another 2 cents. spend it wisely...
    I definately 2nd tat in terms of knowledage and experience

  7. #47

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    Originally posted by sehsuan
    YSLee, i'm still learning. i acknowledged Wolfgang's advice. are you offering any help here? nope.
    I am, like Larry has put it. It's a matter if you're willing to accept it.


    i prefer to do sports because i have my background in sports in my earlier days. i doubt you were one in the first place, so please go and challenge yourself for your ippt first. sportspeople can see sports through another viewpoint that you don't possess.
    Now that is a seriously flawed logic; a fallacy of weak induction. I'm sure there are a fair number of sports photogs who aren't sportsperson themselves, and I don't doubt their ability to shoot sports. Furthermore, if I advance your weak analogy further, does that mean a versatile sportsphotog has to have played in all the sports he or she is covering?


    of all advice and opinions given, only Wolfgang, Binbeto, Dagger and Jeffgoh have given constructive comments/criticism. what are you giving?
    Advice that is not sugar coated. And advice that goes beyond mere technicalities.


    or let's put it this way - for the number of years you've shot, you should be shooting much better than i can, with the equipment you've bought with your own money. and in your way of speech, i'm using something that isn't paid by my own money yet, and i have been shooting experimentally for a maximum of 8 months to date - if i can have shots comparable to your standard, you should go shoot yourself
    This is irelevant, anyone who starts out (save for prodigies) will not do well, but I'm not questioning your ability; I'm questioning your attitude.


    people talk about measurbating camera equipment - similarly i don't have a fantastic bike, but i still use it and ride lots - but i can't be so sure Mr Lee is a gutsy cyclist instead of one bike measurabator.
    I take my approach in photography to every aspect of what I do. I bought a decent bike, and have no qualms about it. I'm curious to know where you got the impression of a bike measurabator from. However, as I have heard from reliable friends, aren't you considering a $4000 bicycle?


    i can only respect YS if he can just bit the bullet and admit he's still hanging on to the past. anyway, what happened was in my family, not his, so i wonder why he's still hanging on so grudgingly to it even right now.
    Indeed, I am still hanging on to the past. I've never been in denial of that. But once again, have you ever wondered why people (I'm not the only one) do so? It takes quite an event to happen for people to hang on to months down the road.

    Since we're here, I'm not going to sugarcoat it.

    You badmouthed (that's putting it nicely here) your father in a public forum with over 3000 members, and god knows how many lurkers.

    Days later, you show absolutely no remorse over it.

    To top it all off, you decided that you'd do photography only when you get a 10D, or a 1D or a 1Ds, so you decided to "quit" (using the word very loosely here).

    Frankly, that attitude to photography is awful, and the way you treat a person who is close to you (for goodness sake, he's your DAD) is downright revolting.

    Photography is just that; taking photos. Photography doesn't require a digital SLR, it doesn't require a fancy pants AF system, it doesn't require top of the line equipment. Anyone with the heart and passion can become great photographers regardless of what equipment they use. I approach photography with the mindset that regardless of what equipment I have, I'll do my very best to take great pictures. And even I don't, I'll think about where I went wrong first before I start blaming my equipment, my computer, or what not. I listen to people I know who are better than I am, and certainly while it's not all praise (lotsa brickbats as well), I take whatever I can. Harsh words might not be pleasent, and while I don't like to hear them I still have to accept them.

    But you, sehsuan, you went on and on whining about wanting your dad's 10D that was so disgusting that made a lot of us (I do mean a lot) here thinking about what kind of person you are. You refused to stop your tantrum, continually insiting you need a 10D,despite some very kind words from people who are much better than you, both in character and photography-wise. I have to admit, if it's attention you wanted, you most certainly got it.

    So it's been a few months down the road. Guess what? Your recent behaviour hasn't changed by that much to warrant me to let go of the past. You want attention, recognition, and praise; it's quite blatent in your various actions, both offline and online (the walls have ears).

    I'll give you my best piece of advice. It might not improve your photography overnight, but it might take you further than you possibly could have ever been:

    Ask yourself and answer honestly (no excuses): Have you been faultless all this while? Are your actions being driven been working towards your growth as a person? Not for fleeting concepts like fame, recognition and wealth, but proper knowledge and character traits which you and the rest of us can be proud of. If you can never surmount the flaws in your character as present, you'll never reach the heights you desire to attain.

    I don't claim to be a saint, but I do my best to improve myself. What have you done? Honestly?

    PS. As a business student, I can tell you the quickest way to financial ruin (both personal and corporate) is to have more loans than necessary. I certainly hope the interest rate on the 10D and the bicycle isn't too high.
    Last edited by YSLee; 21st June 2003 at 04:04 AM.

  8. #48
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    Originally posted by Wolfgang
    Too tight a crop, and too many distractions in the picture.
    This one sentence probably says it all for me. Before someone criticises this for not being constructive, I hope it causes you to stop and think and learn from it.

    There are two faults with composition. Too many distractions. Or too few inclusions (too tight a crop). Wolfgang has pointed out that your picture somehow manages to flout both rules, which under normal circumstances would be mutually exclusive (cropping tighter eliminates distractions naturally). I tend to agree with his perspective, and I think you need to think if you've managed to crop too tight and have too many distractions at the same time.

  9. #49
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    Originally posted by Larry
    sports is much harder than events, weddings and so on IMHO. very very few people make it as successful sports photogs, but many more make a living from events.
    I beg to differ actually. I'd say all disciplines have their own difficulties and obstructions to allowing one to excel. More people make it as event photographers simply because there is more event photography work around than sports work.

    It's strange but personally I tend to diss sports photography. I look down on the fact that it tends not to involve much creativity, merely reactions and speed. Yet, the best sports photographers out there, hopefully someday I can be counted among that number, exercise creativity and compositional skills, planning, etc, every bit as much as the next photographer. I'm privileged to work with the top sports photographers in the world, but I can also easily see how the poorer (in expertise if not financially) sports snappers might not be very skilled at all.

    At the same time, you can go through the motions and make a living from events. But at the same time if you look at the work of top event photographers, I guarantee you'll be impressed not only by their creativity, but also their reactions and speed of thought.

    The best photographers around share a common expertise regardless of their niche. Familiarity with their cameras, compositional sense, an eye for what makes a good picture. And a range of other things.

  10. #50
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    Originally posted by YSLee
    Now that is a seriously flawed logic; a fallacy of weak induction. I'm sure there are a fair number of sports photogs who aren't sportsperson themselves, and I don't doubt their ability to shoot sports. Furthermore, if I advance your weak analogy further, does that mean a versatile sportsphotog has to have played in all the sports he or she is covering?
    I am one such sports snapper who was pretty crap as a sportsperson. My involvement in sport has been from the armchair (although I am quite a keen fan) in general.

    I've hardly ever played rugby (those who know me know my size isn't right at all), yet I'm the club photographer for a professional rugby club.

    I've hardly ever played basketball (those who know me know my height isn't right at all), yet I'm the club photographer for a professional basketball club.

    I've hardly ever played football, yet I've got pictures of most famous football players you may care to name. Rather good pictures as well I might add.

    I've hardly ever played tennis, yet I've got good pictures of Agassi and Hewitt, Serena and Venus.

    I've never ever ridden a motorbike, yet I've got good pictures of grand prix events.

    And the list goes on. Unsurprisingly I've never played netball, but I've got good shots of the world champions.

    And there is a point to all this aside from showing off. What I have played extensively, is with my camera. I've practised with it countless hours. Trained myself to see pictures. So much so where it doesn't matter what you ask me to shoot, I'm confident in my ability to get better pics than the average Joe.

    Practice, training and confidence. Perhaps I am a sportsperson after all.

  11. #51
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    wow, Jed, i love your last post. it is indeed, what i'm trying to say. it was definitely not conducive to type at 2am local time, but in a refined way, it's having the "eye" to see sports in the mind - that's more important. that's what i'm still striving to work at; and learn from others' work. also, those shots that make it to the newsprints are quite an eye-opener, at times, depending on which press agency it is from

    i've already stated my personal influences from the magazines that i read, as well as GW. imho some of my cycling photos (for a feeble first timer) are good to me, because of the fact that for some of the shots, you can't tell where the place is because of the lack of lampposts.



    if i didn't tell you where this was shot, can you guess? you may not guess it's france because of the excessively harsh sunlight, but possibly somewhere in other countries other than singapore. it's like, "transporting" the rider out of the country and placing them in an environment better than it usually looks, replete with lampposts.

    Jed, please do me a favour, go to my cycling photos at http://sehsuan.clubsnap.org/saca-itt-2003/ and see if i'm correct to think that my shots have progressed from worse-than-horrid to fairly acceptable. my first shots were out of focus, suffering from bad panning until some of the shots appeared like the one right above. in fact, if not for the numerous lampposts, i think some give me the "feel" of being at an Ironman event

    i stand aligned with Jed; Jed, you ARE a sportsperson, after all.
    Last edited by sehsuan; 21st June 2003 at 11:04 AM.

  12. #52
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    YSLee and Seh ... cool it ...
    Let's just forget the past and carry on ...
    I believe the thread poster who post for critique ...
    should accept all form of critiques ...
    whether sugar coated or harsh ...
    I believe that every comment is important from amateurs on the street to professionals ...
    I feel that only this way, can we streamline our shooting style and learn what appeals and what are distractions ...
    Photography itself is very subjective ... and as I earlier second the notion that the watch is distracting ... but it seems balance to the photographer ,,,

  13. #53
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    after reading all the postings to date, I can't help not to offer my healtfelt thanks to everyone here for the abundant invaluable experience and knowledge sharing(both good and bad). I have indeed learned alot.

  14. #54
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    The Ang Moh from Hell strolls in ...........

    sehsuan,

    Re: The Wedding Photo.
    It's as both Wolfus and Jed have pointed out, cropped too tight and with too much disctraction.

    Essentially there's 2 main ways to play this shot, tight in on the hands and removing all the rubbish like the flowers or pull it back and show more of the surroundings. Either way the watch is a major distraction. Any photographer worth his salt would have asked the groom to remove the watch during the photographic phase.

    Re: Your cycling shots:

    I've cast my eye over them and there's only a couple of shots there that I'd call decent, the rest are frankly dead boring, poorly executed medicore and pretty godawful, with more than a bit of room for improvement.

    On a more positive note, a couple of your concepts in the cycling shots are okay, but they are let down by poor execution which is exemplified by a lack of general discipline in your shooting. I'd suggest you spend a lot of time working on the basics of lighting angles, panning techniques, framing and so on.
    The Ang Moh from Hell
    Professional Photography - many are called, few are chosen!

  15. #55
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    Seh...

    i'm straddling the fence here (and trust me, it hurts to do so if i do it literally but thats another story altogether) but in all honestly, if you really carefully into what YS has to say, it is constructive.

    I know i am now looking back but the impression one has created isn't so easily shrugged off. I have always reminded everyone here, how you project yourself here reflects on what kind of a person that you are.

    So, as kindly as i could put it, your post in regards to your family wasn't the smartest thing one could have done and yes, you are right in the fact that it's your family business. But if that is the case, then why did you raise it up here in a public forum?

    I am not trying to be critical and i think you know me well enough that i don't jump into personal arguments of these sorts and neither am i unfair when it comes to most matters...

    Go reflect and when you come back, i hope that you understand why we all have stated what we did. Look at it this way, if we couldn't be bothered with how you turn out as a photographer (amateur or otherwise), do you reckon we would have shared or pointed out the flaws in your philosophy?

    In some ways, we all care how a fellow photographer, esp in clubsnap, turns out and sometimes, in our zeal to pooint out the wrongs, we can be very pointed in what we have to say. Don't take it too personally. Because if you take everything in life so personally, life would be too much of a drag...

    You should know by now but if you don't, truth does hurt. But the pain does go away. Remember, Confidence is everything but humilty is paramount. I learnt that along the way and i share that with you now. How you want to read into it is up to you.

    So go reflect, think, shoot and once again, when you return, hopefully, things would be better.
    --
    "High Wired, Dream Sired"

  16. #56

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    Originally posted by Ian
    The Ang Moh from Hell strolls in ...........

    sehsuan,

    Re: The Wedding Photo.
    It's as both Wolfus and Jed have pointed out, cropped too tight and with too much disctraction.

    Essentially there's 2 main ways to play this shot, tight in on the hands and removing all the rubbish like the flowers or pull it back and show more of the surroundings. Either way the watch is a major distraction. Any photographer worth his salt would have asked the groom to remove the watch during the photographic phase.

    Re: Your cycling shots:

    I've cast my eye over them and there's only a couple of shots there that I'd call decent, the rest are frankly dead boring, poorly executed medicore and pretty godawful, with more than a bit of room for improvement.

    On a more positive note, a couple of your concepts in the cycling shots are okay, but they are let down by poor execution which is exemplified by a lack of general discipline in your shooting. I'd suggest you spend a lot of time working on the basics of lighting angles, panning techniques, framing and so on.
    ditto.... though I'm not much better than sehsuan. Excuses are not going to get you anywhere better. Having the correct attitude is more important.

    PS - thanks for the wake-up call from hell you gave me quite a few months ago.
    Last edited by mervlam; 21st June 2003 at 05:39 PM.

  17. #57
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    Originally posted by Wolfgang
    Seh...

    Go reflect and when you come back, i hope that you understand why we all have stated what we did. Look at it this way, if we couldn't be bothered with how you turn out as a photographer (amateur or otherwise), do you reckon we would have shared or pointed out the flaws in your philosophy?
    Sehsuan

    This sums it up really.

  18. #58
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    Time to move on ...

    So when's the next CS photoshoot?

  19. #59

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    My wife said that the diamond ring was just too small to appreciate the photograph.

    I going out tomorrow to buy a macro lens tomorrow to shoot her diamond ring before she looks into our wedding photographs again . . . .

  20. #60

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    Originally posted by sehsuan
    imho some of my cycling photos (for a feeble first timer) are good to me, because of the fact that for some of the shots, you can't tell where the place is because of the lack of lampposts.

    if i didn't tell you where this was shot, can you guess? you may not guess it's france because of the excessively harsh sunlight, but possibly somewhere in other countries other than singapore. it's like, "transporting" the rider out of the country and placing them in an environment better than it usually looks, replete with lampposts.
    omigod...this one is really lame. Honestly, I don't see how that makes it a good shot. What's wrong with seeing lampposts, if you can do it tastefully? Why create the image that the race is done overseas, when it is actually done in Singapore?

    Sehsuan, this thread so far has given you what I would have said to you too. Especially words from Wolfie and YS. It's lucky that many here in CS are still quite kind to you, encouraging you and advising you. In the cold hard world, it can be a lot worse. I always say "If there are many who disagree what you think is right, maybe it's time to think if you are wrong, or them." Not trying to advocate that you should always go with the norms and majority, but more like asking you to open up and see what these people are trying to tell you. Don't be cooped up in the narrow horn.

    Hope you'll think about it. After all, you're going to be a teacher and one day you have to advise your students on things like these too, and I'm sure you want to impart proper knowledge.

    Cheers buddy.
    Last edited by Tweek; 21st June 2003 at 11:07 PM.

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