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Thread: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

  1. #321

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Quote Originally Posted by RudimentalDrummer View Post
    I will pay her the fees, but I needed good experience Photographer to help me take the shots of her and where to place my 5 sets of Drums so that she could be taken at all the right angles & tell her to post well. (or else I will waste my $$$$ to engage her – worst my own photos all come out blur hahahaha)….then I pay her another time.

    Agree with the rest.
    You are willing to pay a model who probably don't have experience on how to pose with drums ...
    But you are not going to pay for the good experience photographer who can take photos of her at right angles and at the same time teach her to pose

    and you also expect the photographer to give you all the photos he took into a CD and you say its FAIR!

    A good photographer can makes a lousy model looks good but not vice-versa.

    At the rate we are going, CS is going to be place where everybody source for free photographers.. (or its already like that) Very soon, we won't see anymore professionals around.. so who the newbies going to learn from?

    Having said that.. you are probably pampered with choice of photographers to select from by now
    Last edited by shinestar; 17th April 2008 at 10:12 PM.

  2. #322

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Quote Originally Posted by wakaowalao View Post
    new cook cannot charge high?
    new doctor cannot charge high?
    new masseur cannot charge high?
    new lawyer cannot charge high?

    YES to all, cause they have achieved the requirements, getting certified.
    But those XMM, haa, the so called experiences don't count.
    ...when i said high, i meant relatively high.

    if new doctor a charges higher than new doctor b, or worse still, old and good doctor c, then ya, you can feel unhappy about it, but you should feel even more perturbed if people go to doctor a compared to doctor b and doctor c.. and be amused by it even more.. cos got people so carrothead

    ask you, if clubsnap people actually look at all the less xmm-orientated photos here and comment more.. instead of just commenting on the xmm photos only, and neglecting the entire variance of photographs, you think this problem will be so deep? you miss my point entirely.

  3. #323

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Well, you always seems to think people miss your point, you missed mine too.

  4. #324

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Quote Originally Posted by wakaowalao View Post
    Well, you always seems to think people miss your point, you missed mine too.
    no no no

    you say as if the doctor can charge high because of his qualifications, i was seeking to clarifyyyyy because i realised maybe i was not clear enough.. what i meant is, sometimes people charge higher than the market rate cos they are new, they don't know the world.. just like the other day i go to kopitiam, fwah, western stall selling 24 dollar steak gg. relax la bro.

  5. #325

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    If we shoot exhibition girls, we get branded as harm sup (cheeky)
    If we shoot xmm, we are sympathized as being exploited.
    If we shoot each other in CS in between debates, we get glamorized.

    In the end, there are so many ways to shoot. Isnt it all about kicks? Happy shooting!

  6. #326

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Wow.wwww hey cool it guys…..

    Standing as a Neutral Party (cause I’m no Professional Photograher here) and also 1st-time engaging a model to shoot at my Drum-Kits – This is the way I see it.

    To me CS is a probably a Forum for all sorts of Photographer to share it’s Passion in Photography here. There will be Beginners….right up to Professionals (who do Photography for a Living – Their Bread & Butter) - - - - What is the Estimated Ratio of Professional here – 10% or less (I don’t know) but strongly believe many are Hobbyist or took Photography as a Hobby and as a Passion here…..Having Fun.

    So much talk about (Paying a Photographer) and the way I see it – Many have very High EGO.oooo here – of course I can understand this is a Photography Forum, it is normal that Photographer fight for their rights, but much more important is not How great a Photographer one is – It’s about Having The Right Attitude…isn’t it. People come here to share, to have Fun…isn’t this what CS is all about? Be it they are Inexperience Models (providing a service here – some small fees , some bigger fees and some Free probably)…at least they too serve as a Tool to let everyone enjoy their hobby better….so why Bash them? I don’t see the logic here.

    Some says (due to their high Ego) Can pay Models cannot pay Photographer izzit? - - - well you have your point/reason, I have my own jusification too.

    As mentioned not all are Professional Photographer within this community, some Photographer merely do it out of Passion and have fun (the same way as I do – not all will say – Pay me lah.)…..similarly as our Drumming – We don’t sell Drums, nor Instruments nor are we Promoting Drums Instructor – Photos taken are used to Promote Drumming in Singapore – Freely, and we have sponsors for Venue and other things (even from the Government) merely because – It’s non-Profit, as it’s a Healthy social activity group for Community In Drumming …They do measure all these.

    You say Pay For Photographer – It depends here, what is the Objective (for Profit or for Social Fun Sake) …… even If I pay – are you saying you’re the Best I can get here – are you measuring your own Self_Worth? That you are really measuring up to Professional Standards? – common man --- cool it – away with your ego and so on………

    It’s about Attitude towards this Passion at the end of the day, not really about How good you think you really are….So what if you’re the Best (if that’s true) - - - It doesn’t mean – everyone will engage and pay you handsomely…

    When it comes to Hobby – any kind of hobby – we spend money, and you usually loose a lot unless – you are a Professional in this area – then you make your Hobby Profitable…and of course you will ask me to pay you (That's your rice-bowl) and you would definetely not have time to shoot these models who are here asking for certain fees per hour.

    For me – It’s Having Fun and sharing it with those who would want to share this hobby together – It’s always a give & take situation.

    Inculcating the idea that - Photographer here within CS will have to be Paid? ..... is the right approached when so many are here taking Photograhy as a Hobby?.....

    PS: - If Model dont charge - Free one - then that also makes them look cheap right - Free Service? Female Drummers are Drummers not Models, they dont make-up - they drum and know nothing about how to Pose, also not so feminine like the Models - - as mention to each his own
    Last edited by RudimentalDrummer; 18th April 2008 at 10:14 AM.

  7. #327

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Let's face it, we all don't want to pay, and if we have to pay, pay as little as possible; we all want to be paid, and to be paid as much as possible.

    This is universal. Applies to everything.

    However, what is also universal, is, we will pay for what it is worth, and we will be paid, for what we are worth.


    The problems here are ...

    We are paying for something that is way over priced, from the stand point of quality, but unfortunately, forced upon us by market forces.

    We have photographers, more than willing to pay a young woman to pose, regardless of overall quality.

    We have young women, who after one or two shoots, few they can make some money in this racket and start charging for their services.

    Then there are photographers, yours truly included, few that there is no justification paying totally inexperienced young women to pose for us. Some complained, I just act. I do not pay inexperienced young women to pose for me, I do however, engaged experienced models, those that have something compelling, to work with.

    No point complaining, just act.

    On another note to our Drummer. You got the wrath simply because you said it with no uncertainty, that you were willing to pay $$ to engage a model, but you want freebies from the photographer. Do you expect anything less?
    Last edited by Deadpoet; 18th April 2008 at 10:29 AM.
    deadpoet
    my portfolio

  8. #328

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Quote Originally Posted by RudimentalDrummer View Post
    To me CS is a probably a Forum for all sorts of Photographer to share it’s Passion in Photography here. There will be Beginners….right up to Professionals (who do Photography for a Living – Their Bread & Butter) - - - - What is the Estimated Ratio of Professional here – 10% or less (I don’t know) but strongly believe many are Hobbyist or took Photography as a Hobby and as a Passion here…
    Here, many members believe that GWC = Professional.....
    As such, the ratio is more like 100% to 0% (Pro to non-pro)...
    The same goes to the "models"....
    GWPF (Girl with pretty face) = Professional model .......
    always the Light, .... always.

  9. #329

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Quote Originally Posted by RudimentalDrummer View Post
    Wow.wwww hey cool it guys…..

    Standing as a Neutral Party (cause I’m no Professional Photograher here) and also 1st-time engaging a model to shoot at my Drum-Kits – This is the way I see it.

    To me CS is a probably a Forum for all sorts of Photographer to share it’s Passion in Photography here. There will be Beginners….right up to Professionals (who do Photography for a Living – Their Bread & Butter) - - - - What is the Estimated Ratio of Professional here – 10% or less (I don’t know) but strongly believe many are Hobbyist or took Photography as a Hobby and as a Passion here…..Having Fun.

    So much talk about (Paying a Photographer) and the way I see it – Many have very High EGO.oooo here – of course I can understand this is a Photography Forum, it is normal that Photographer fight for their rights, but much more important is not How great a Photographer one is – It’s about Having The Right Attitude…isn’t it. People come here to share, to have Fun…isn’t this what CS is all about? Be it they are Inexperience Models (providing a service here – some small fees , some bigger fees and some Free probably)…at least they too serve as a Tool to let everyone enjoy their hobby better….so why Bash them? I don’t see the logic here.

    Some says (due to their high Ego) Can pay Models cannot pay Photographer izzit? - - - well you have your point/reason, I have my own jusification too.

    As mentioned not all are Professional Photographer within this community, some Photographer merely do it out of Passion and have fun (the same way as I do – not all will say – Pay me lah.)…..similarly as our Drumming – We don’t sell Drums, nor Instruments nor are we Promoting Drums Instructor – Photos taken are used to Promote Drumming in Singapore – Freely, and we have sponsors for Venue and other things (even from the Government) merely because – It’s non-Profit, as it’s a Healthy social activity group for Community In Drumming …They do measure all these.

    You say Pay For Photographer – It depends here, what is the Objective (for Profit or for Social Fun Sake) …… even If I pay – are you saying you’re the Best I can get here – are you measuring your own Self_Worth? That you are really measuring up to Professional Standards? – common man --- cool it – away with your ego and so on………

    It’s about Attitude towards this Passion at the end of the day, not really about How good you think you really are….So what if you’re the Best (if that’s true) - - - It doesn’t mean – everyone will engage and pay you handsomely…

    When it comes to Hobby – any kind of hobby – we spend money, and you usually loose a lot unless – you are a Professional in this area – then you make your Hobby Profitable…and of course you will ask me to pay you (That's your rice-bowl) and you would definetely not have time to shoot these models who are here asking for certain fees per hour.

    For me – It’s Having Fun and sharing it with those who would want to share this hobby together – It’s always a give & take situation.

    Inculcating the idea that - Photographer here within CS will have to be Paid? ..... is the right approached when so many are here taking Photograhy as a Hobby?.....

    PS: - If Model dont charge - Free one - then that also makes them look cheap right - Free Service? Female Drummers are Drummers not Models, they dont make-up - they drum and know nothing about how to Pose, also not so feminine like the Models - - as mention to each his own

    its true many photographers in cs are hobbyists...but that doesnt mean they wouldnt mind getting paid. so if new and inexperienced gals can request for paid shoots, likewise new and inexperience photographers can request of payment for the services too right? or does it only work 1 way?

    one of the discussion points was models who are paid and yet want all the photos. well...i agree with some who say since we already pay the model, its our decision whether to give the models free pics or not. i see no reason why we cant charge the model for the pics she wants.

    for tfcd is different....free model and free photographer share the costs. model gives her time and photographer gives her photos. well thats how it was supposed to work.

  10. #330

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canonised View Post
    Here, many members believe that GWC = Professional.....
    As such, the ratio is more like 100% to 0% (Pro to non-pro)...
    The same goes to the "models"....
    GWPF (Girl with pretty face) = Professional model .......
    ah but then....

  11. #331
    Senior Member harrynkl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Quote Originally Posted by RudimentalDrummer View Post
    Wow.wwww hey cool it guys…..

    Standing as a Neutral Party (cause I’m no Professional Photograher here) and also 1st-time engaging a model to shoot at my Drum-Kits – This is the way I see it.

    To me CS is a probably a Forum for all sorts of Photographer to share it’s Passion in Photography here. There will be Beginners….right up to Professionals (who do Photography for a Living – Their Bread & Butter) - - - - What is the Estimated Ratio of Professional here – 10% or less (I don’t know) but strongly believe many are Hobbyist or took Photography as a Hobby and as a Passion here…..Having Fun.

    So much talk about (Paying a Photographer) and the way I see it – Many have very High EGO.oooo here – of course I can understand this is a Photography Forum, it is normal that Photographer fight for their rights, but much more important is not How great a Photographer one is – It’s about Having The Right Attitude…isn’t it. People come here to share, to have Fun…isn’t this what CS is all about? Be it they are Inexperience Models (providing a service here – some small fees , some bigger fees and some Free probably)…at least they too serve as a Tool to let everyone enjoy their hobby better….so why Bash them? I don’t see the logic here.

    Some says (due to their high Ego) Can pay Models cannot pay Photographer izzit? - - - well you have your point/reason, I have my own jusification too.

    As mentioned not all are Professional Photographer within this community, some Photographer merely do it out of Passion and have fun (the same way as I do – not all will say – Pay me lah.)…..similarly as our Drumming – We don’t sell Drums, nor Instruments nor are we Promoting Drums Instructor – Photos taken are used to Promote Drumming in Singapore – Freely, and we have sponsors for Venue and other things (even from the Government) merely because – It’s non-Profit, as it’s a Healthy social activity group for Community In Drumming …They do measure all these.

    You say Pay For Photographer – It depends here, what is the Objective (for Profit or for Social Fun Sake) …… even If I pay – are you saying you’re the Best I can get here – are you measuring your own Self_Worth? That you are really measuring up to Professional Standards? – common man --- cool it – away with your ego and so on………

    It’s about Attitude towards this Passion at the end of the day, not really about How good you think you really are….So what if you’re the Best (if that’s true) - - - It doesn’t mean – everyone will engage and pay you handsomely…

    When it comes to Hobby – any kind of hobby – we spend money, and you usually loose a lot unless – you are a Professional in this area – then you make your Hobby Profitable…and of course you will ask me to pay you (That's your rice-bowl) and you would definetely not have time to shoot these models who are here asking for certain fees per hour.

    For me – It’s Having Fun and sharing it with those who would want to share this hobby together – It’s always a give & take situation.

    Inculcating the idea that - Photographer here within CS will have to be Paid? ..... is the right approached when so many are here taking Photograhy as a Hobby?.....

    PS: - If Model dont charge - Free one - then that also makes them look cheap right - Free Service? Female Drummers are Drummers not Models, they dont make-up - they drum and know nothing about how to Pose, also not so feminine like the Models - - as mention to each his own
    You say You are neutral but all this talk you have are on photograhers, what about those small girls or talents? what you got to say of them. what your stand.
    Canon 1D MK3,28-200 F3.5-5.6, 100 F2
    My Models

  12. #332

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    I saw some threads - where someone organise here with 2 or 3 Models - then Photographer put their names down (something like that) - The Photographer pays (S$30 to some S$50) I think - read somewhere...... they take the girls picture in groups of 3 or 4 I think.

    So, since I am engaging a Model (I dont know if she is really that Professional or not) - but I judge here on her Charisma (based on her Photos samples) and find her fit to suit the Role-Model of the Female-Drummer......so I have to pay right (of course here I take her pictures myself) - but she wouldn't mind me getting another 1 or 2 Photographer to help me shoot the pics as I am new......

    so since I pay, I might as well share it with some of you (the one or two) to help me if you are interested - to me it's a win win - why not (If it's a Hobby - you get to keep the Photos here just give me copies of it, as I am learning also in this way) - - - and looking at the 1st example - I would indefinetely think it's fair deal.....Dont forget - I am very new here - and I will look at it this way. Above Photographer has to pay - Here I share with you - since I pay S$140 but with another 2 join me also same - S$140 (and I am wrong), just join is the fun that's all for me.

    Why overeact here - - - -

    Also I am thinking - taking pictures of Trees, flowers - can go Botanic Garden...but wanna take people I cannot anywhere take pictures of Girls right suka suka (I think that's why they ask us to pay) - - - Imagine I take a Photo of a Cha-Bo at the MRT ...she scream and shout at me - I kenna chase like mad by people than kenna wahlap chia-lat -chailat kekekeke wah die lah.

    To be honest - I really dont know S$70 an hour is expensive or not (I dont know whats Market Rate-that's what I was told only)....some charge cheaper S$30 (but the cutting dont fit a female drummer) so I dont want...

    Hey...you all supposed to help me right...wah now tekan me how can lah? ...Kekekeke cheers !

    To me a Professional means - That's all you do for a living (just Photographing, or Drumming, or Modelling for a living) ---- other than that - maybe it's just another Weekend Warrior (just another Hobbyiest for the Passion) ....


    Eric
    Last edited by RudimentalDrummer; 18th April 2008 at 12:58 PM.

  13. #333
    Senior Member Leong23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    To Drummer

    Like i had mention, you had pay for the model, don't think you had any problem to find GWC to help you out. To the GWC, it is just a free photo shoot, why not.
    But since you are using it for some commerical use, you better be clear about the IP problem, good to discuss with those GWC before hand.

    I use to help up in a threater company, and sometime help them to take some shoot for press release. For me, i just ask them to buy me the film, after the shoot, i give the flim to them and case closed. They just need to credit me in the programe.


    Cheers

  14. #334
    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Quote Originally Posted by RudimentalDrummer View Post
    Wow.wwww hey cool it guys…..

    Inculcating the idea that - Photographer here within CS will have to be Paid? ..... is the right approached when so many are here taking Photograhy as a Hobby?.....

    PS: - If Model dont charge - Free one - then that also makes them look cheap right - Free Service? Female Drummers are Drummers not Models, they dont make-up - they drum and know nothing about how to Pose, also not so feminine like the Models - - as mention to each his own
    please note that this is a photography forum, while you have your point to push
    what you are saying here is regarded as "flame baiting" in a photography forum where the members are passionate about their hobby
    and that is against the Terms of Use
    especially

    1. Be Nice and Be Civilised - abusing, name-calling, personal attacks on members and/or generally trying to stir up trouble will not be tolerated. Be kind to newbies as they may not know the general flow of the forums. Repeatedly violation of this rule will result in banishment.

    6. Trolls - We will not tolerate anyone antagonising other forum members by posting potentially inflammatory messages. See Rule #1. Repeated abuse will result in banishment. Do not participate in a thread merely to criticize or mock the equipment choice of other forum members in the thread. Examples include Nikon shooters posting in Canon topic areas, Canon shooters posting in Nikon topic areas and anyone posting in any topic area where the result can serve only to insult and inflame regular participants in that topic area.


    but since you are a newbie here, i just give you a friendly reminder.

    please be tactful in your next reply

  15. #335

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    To drummer,

    You are learning photography right now? I hope you learn fast and do well so that next time if anybody need FREE photogapher, I can asked them to approach you. I am sure you won't charge them based on what you have said above.

    And hor..if I need drummer for performance, you can do it FREE also right?

  16. #336

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    No Problem ...Peace.

    Every Forum will have their own Rules/Regulation as spell out by it's Moderators & Administrators....and I will abide by that, no question asked as it is not my perogative here.... and I respect that.

    PS: - Can ..Free Drummers - subject to if they wanna do it for you. For me cannot lah - I am just a so-so Drummer very paiseh here.

    PS: - a sidenote to Moderators - Flaming as the Terms implies should be applied to anyone here irregardless of whoever they are right?...

    Regards

    eric
    Last edited by RudimentalDrummer; 18th April 2008 at 02:47 PM.

  17. #337

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Quote Originally Posted by shinestar View Post
    To drummer,

    You are learning photography right now? I hope you learn fast and do well so that next time if anybody need FREE photogapher, I can asked them to approach you. I am sure you won't charge them based on what you have said above.

    And hor..if I need drummer for performance, you can do it FREE also right?
    definitely since its his passion.

  18. #338
    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Quote Originally Posted by RudimentalDrummer View Post
    PS: - a sidenote to Moderators - Flaming as the Terms implies should be applied to anyone here irregardless of whoever they are right?...

    Regards

    eric
    yes the terms of use refers to everyone

    please use the report bad post to highlight

  19. #339
    Deregistered satan_18349's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Well, you are challenging the standards of photographers if you are REALLY paying, so then why are you so willing to pay the un-sure market rates for the model when in the first place, you are not even sure whether the model are indeed experience or professional.

    Sorry, after your long self-defending posts, I still see only 2 points i.e.

    1) Both parties (photographers + models) are providing a service and yet only one party gets paid.

    2) Hoping to get more less "egoistic" FREE photographers and ideally FREE models for your non-profit Drumming promoting.

  20. #340

    Default Re: Why so called "models" with little or less experience can demand paid shoots?

    Very simple - No neccessasity for defending statement if everything is one-sided here - as mention (the Truth) it's a Photography Forum.

    As regards to getting Free Drumming Photographer here at CS (I think that's in a way creating a Sparks here, when it's clearly explain the way I see it - which is different from you all) - that's not so true too depending on how ones look at it (to me It's a WIn-Win) We have Video Guys & Cameramans who are Drummers too of course who does that for us monthly. To each his own,,,

    You have your point, so do I - peace.eee

    Let's move on from here ... cheers !

    Eric

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