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Thread: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

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    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    time to time, there are people asking for such cameras (without considering DSLRs and DSLR lenses)...

    i just wonder if that is possible....

    i assume reliable refers to the ability to have sufficient exposure and minimal handshakes, in low light (e.g. night) without flash.

    the following enables that

    1. high ISO capabilities (how high can a prosumer gets to? can someone answer that? is it technically possible to add the same ISO capabilities in a compact as in a high end DSLR since both are just electronics ?

    2. good body VR ability (how does vibration reduction, or so called image stabilisation, works in compacts as compared to the DSLR's counterparts?)

    3. ultra wide angle of view (not possible in current models of prosumers and compacts, even in the wider ends models)

    4. larger sensor size (require larger angular movement to produce movements, hence less handshake; larger sensor not present in almost all prosumer and compact bodies)

    5. large aperture for maximal light entry (not available again for compacts)

    so is it something that we can tell those who wanted reliable night shots without flash - forget abt compacts or prosumers, even with DSLR there is some restrictions.

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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    1. i tink some can go up to ISO1600, but the noise is really bad. it's definitely not possible in a compact/prosumer, cos of the small sensor size and high MP. noise is definitely higher than dSLRs.

    2. similar to dSLR systems. some compensates the vibration/movements with the sensor (sensor moves), others by lens (lens elements moves)

    3. i dont suppose ultra wide will be implemented in compacts/prosumers, since such users have little or no need. if they are really serious abt this, they shd get a dSLR w/ ultra wide angle lens.

    4. hmm. dunno how large sensors will minimise hand motions/vibrations. i don't suppose it works that way ( ? )

    5. no matter how large it goes, its still small. the lens on the compacts/prosumers are small to start with.
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    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragnatic View Post
    4. hmm. dunno how large sensors will minimise hand motions/vibrations. i don't suppose it works that way ( ? )
    if compensated for the same angle of view, handshake should be the same.

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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    I think we are slowly getting there. Then again, flash isn't used just for the sake of lighting up subjects. It's more to do with the control and balance of lighting and what angles it should hit at. Most folks got the perception that with enough light, flash isn't needed.
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    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Splutter View Post
    I think we are slowly getting there.
    em, you mean prosumers are slowly getting to be able to cope with low light shooting without flash?

    agree with your idea of filling with flash in daytime, but i think that's a different issue.

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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    Yup some prosumers have really amazing noise performance now. I think ISO 12800 will be pretty in consumer cameras in about 3-5 years time.
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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragnatic View Post
    1. i tink some can go up to ISO1600, but the noise is really bad. it's definitely not possible in a compact/prosumer, cos of the small sensor size and high MP. noise is definitely higher than dSLRs.

    2. similar to dSLR systems. some compensates the vibration/movements with the sensor (sensor moves), others by lens (lens elements moves)

    3. i dont suppose ultra wide will be implemented in compacts/prosumers, since such users have little or no need. if they are really serious abt this, they shd get a dSLR w/ ultra wide angle lens.

    4. hmm. dunno how large sensors will minimise hand motions/vibrations. i don't suppose it works that way ( ? )

    5. no matter how large it goes, its still small. the lens on the compacts/prosumers are small to start with.
    Yes, i believe that's right.
    But i still don't like wht flash cause the brighter FACE or BG, it can be reduce by diffiuser.
    I believe it totaly technical part how to utz the provide light surrounding in low light condition.

    Hey,Fragnatic
    Are you using 40D, 17-85 Kit II & 580EX II ?
    How it is ? I decide to buy this, just seaching around the BEST price & Best place.
    But Lens i consider Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L USM Lens but it cost alot.

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    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Splutter View Post
    Yup some prosumers have really amazing noise performance now. I think ISO 12800 will be pretty in consumer cameras in about 3-5 years time.
    but are we talking about it in comparison with DSLR sensors? the threshold might be different with regards to noise performance.

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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    4. larger sensor size (require larger angular movement to produce movements, hence less handshake; larger sensor not present in almost all prosumer and compact bodies)

    5. large aperture for maximal light entry (not available again for compacts)
    4. well, i don think so, with larger sensor, the camera lens focal length will also be increased proportionally thus increasing the effect of handshake as well.

    5. this have actually been done before (if large aperture = f2.8), panasonic use to have a FZ20 with a constant f2.8 12x zoom, theres also a canon g6 with a f2.0-3.0 lens.

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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    i would think for high iso capability you might look to fujifilm f20/f30/f31fd and perhaps 6500fd. fujifilm also has released something with vr, but not sure if the noise performance is as good as the previous mentioned models.. but i remember the megapixels have been upped to meet consumer demand so maybe not as good already.

    i'm thinking the sony r1 might be possible to meet your demand, but the trouble is that it is out of production.\

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    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    Quote Originally Posted by ExplorerZ View Post
    4. well, i don think so, with larger sensor, the camera lens focal length will also be increased proportionally thus increasing the effect of handshake as well.
    physical focal length shouldn't change with the size of the sensor actually.

    the larger sensor size at the same focal length should have a wider field of view, but in order to have the same field of view, it will need to have a longer focal length, but since the field of view is the same after compensation, why would there be increase in handshake?

    say a hand moves an angular movement across 1/100th of the frame.

    a small sensor S1 with focal length F1 = field of view V
    larger sensor S2 with focal length F2 = field of view V

    although focal length is longer, but composition is the same, so 1/100th of the frame is the same in both shots. on the two sensor's print outputs at the same physical dimension should have no difference in handshake, at the same field of view and shutter duration.

    if the focal length is not change,
    a small sensor S1 with focal length F = narrow field of view
    larger sensor S2 with focal length F = wider field of view

    that 1/100th of the narrow field may become 1/500th of the wider field, so everything becomes smaller, include the handshake.

    and supposedly if i move in nearer the subject, with the larger sensor size, same focal length, wider field of view, until the size of the subject is the same size on the frame as on the smaller sensor, then again the handshake magnitude is the same

    do correct me if any of the logic up there is incorrect.

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    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    Quote Originally Posted by ExplorerZ View Post
    5. this have actually been done before (if large aperture = f2.8), panasonic use to have a FZ20 with a constant f2.8 12x zoom, theres also a canon g6 with a f2.0-3.0 lens.
    just curious. i'm pretty ignorant abt prosumers. does a large aperture gives a good selling point, or is that largely ignored by the prosumer consumers?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    just curious. i'm pretty ignorant abt prosumers. does a large aperture gives a good selling point, or is that largely ignored by the prosumer consumers?
    Totally ignored. People usually just look at the zoom length.

    It's only us DSLR freaks that really pay attention to aperture...

    The average joe has no idea, buys the cam, then coems to CS to post about why he can't get blurry backgrounds, why his shutter speed is so slow, how to use his superzoom to shoot in dark environments without flash, etc etc etc
    Alpha

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    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae View Post
    Totally ignored. People usually just look at the zoom length.

    It's only us DSLR freaks that really pay attention to aperture...

    The average joe has no idea, buys the cam, then coems to CS to post about why he can't get blurry backgrounds, why his shutter speed is so slow, how to use his superzoom to shoot in dark environments without flash, etc etc etc
    well, at least now i know there is rarely some prosumers with larger sensor sizes and aperture sizes as compared to the majority of the prosumers/compacts.

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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rashkae View Post
    Totally ignored. People usually just look at the zoom length.

    It's only us DSLR freaks that really pay attention to aperture...

    The average joe has no idea, buys the cam, then coems to CS to post about why he can't get blurry backgrounds, why his shutter speed is so slow, how to use his superzoom to shoot in dark environments without flash, etc etc etc
    second that. almost totally ignored. most would go for MP, zoom range, design, some would go more into the features (like video, IS/VR, etc)
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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    third that... i remember seeing a casio PnS camera ad @ best denki...3 models.. 6, 8, 10 MP respectively..the 10MP one, the poster says 10, 000, 000 pixels.. hah!
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    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reliable in low light without flash? Is that possible in any prosumer?

    maybe becos the same manufacturer sells both compact and DSLRs, so they will hide certain features and its quantification. things like shutter lag and noise performance ain't really quantified but i'm sure there is a way to do it.

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