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Thread: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    1. If you can quote this letter, then you should be able to find the past discussion threads where it was made clear that SMRT/SBS has no statutory basis to stop anyone from photography.

    2. By "statutory" I mean the ability to detain, fine or jail anyone for photography. SMRT/SBS are not police, they have no police powers. Hell, they are not civil servants or even public servants! As mentioned, they are employees of public listed companies.

    3. Again, as has been discussed before, a company can eject a person (such as a photographer) from a place it owns simply because it owns that place, ie that place is not a "public" place.

    4. Nevertheless, one constantly hears that our wonderful Govt pays for transport infrastructure such as bus interchanges and MRT stations, and that we the commuting public only pay the companies for the cost of buying and running their buses and trains. If this is true, then SMRT/SBS Transit does not "own" those stations and interchanges hence such places are "public" places where they can't eject you from.

    PS Although we may use the term "regulations" very loosely (eg "rules" and "regulations" of a contest or game), "regulations" has a very precise meaning in law. It refers to subsidiary legislation which are issued by a competent Authority and backed by force of statute, meaning that non-compliance attracts criminal punishment, typically fine, jail or both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fotophilic View Post
    ST Forum: Sep 4, 2007
    Why no photos at MRT stations...
    I REFER to the letter, 'Can't one take photos in MRT stations?' by Mr Soh Oon Teck (ST, Aug 30).

    As part of our security measures, we do not allow people to take pictures within our MRT stations or of our MRT stations without prior permission. People who wish to take pictures or videos of our MRT stations or who are taking pictures or videos from the MRT station are required to inform our station staff.

    Due to security reasons, our station staff had to take down Mr Soh's particulars as we keep records of people who take pictures from the MRT station.

    We seek Mr Soh's understanding on this matter, and would like to apologise for any inconvenience caused.

    Karen Chow (Ms)
    Executive, Corporate Marketing and Communications
    SMRT Corporation

    BTW, this topic has been discussed in: http://forums.clubsnap.com/showthread.php?t=307551.. There are more constructive arguements and cases to look at over there. If one is interested, can take a look.
    Last edited by waileong; 3rd February 2008 at 02:19 AM.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    1. If you can quote this letter, then you should be able to find the past discussion threads where it was made clear that SMRT/SBS has no statutory basis to stop anyone from photography.

    2. By "statutory" I mean the ability to detain, fine or jail anyone for photography. SMRT/SBS are not police, they have no police powers. Hell, they are not civil servants or even public servants! As mentioned, they are employees of public listed companies.

    3. Again, as has been discussed before, a company can eject a person (such as a photographer) from a place it owns simply because it owns that place, ie that place is not a "public" place.

    4. Nevertheless, one constantly hears that our wonderful Govt pays for transport infrastructure such as bus interchanges and MRT stations, and that we the commuting public only pay the companies for the cost of buying and running their buses and trains. If this is true, then SMRT/SBS Transit does not "own" those stations and interchanges hence such places are "public" places where they can't eject you from.

    PS Although we may use the term "regulations" very loosely (eg "rules" and "regulations" of a contest or game), "regulations" has a very precise meaning in law. It refers to subsidiary legislation which are issued by a competent Authority and backed by force of statute, meaning that non-compliance attracts criminal punishment, typically fine, jail or both.
    So u mean one can insist on shooting despite being warned? Simply because they have no statutory rights to stop anyone based on that?
    cameras are not made of tofu

  3. #23
    Senior Member redstone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    See where you're standing, if it's outside the interchange's (or any building's) building plot boundary, they can do nothing unless they can prove that the said place is a Protected Place.

    For shophouse, the boundary should be right where the exterior pillars end, and the left and right walls. For the alley it would be up to the wall. They don't own the alley. Office building is a bit hard to distinguish cos of all the setbacks. They also don't own public roads, so you can shoot directly at the entrance and they have no legal right to stop you unless the building is a Protected Place.

    Some people have photography paranoia. Had my share of gentle and not-so-gentle encounters
    Last edited by redstone; 3rd February 2008 at 03:19 AM.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fotophilic View Post
    So u mean one can insist on shooting despite being warned? Simply because they have no statutory rights to stop anyone based on that?
    Technically yes, they can't search you, detain you or arrest you because they have no statutory powers. However, if the place you are in is a private place (eg a restaurant, shopping centre, etc), the people who own or run the place can order you to leave and sue you for trespassing if you don't.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    Technically yes, they can't search you, detain you or arrest you because they have no statutory powers. However, if the place you are in is a private place (eg a restaurant, shopping centre, etc), the people who own or run the place can order you to leave and sue you for trespassing if you don't.
    anyway to verify this claim? they cannot search u, detain u, or arrest u; but what they did was request u to leave or call the police (just like what happen to the TS and some others). so u mean what the staff did was wrong as they have no rights to do so? sorry for asking too much, this is really something new to me.

    or can u just come straight to the point: can someone be taking pictures in mrt stations and bus interchange legally, and the staff has no rights or whatsoever to stop the photographer from doing what he/she wants?
    Last edited by Fotophilic; 3rd February 2008 at 12:32 PM.
    cameras are not made of tofu

  6. #26

    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    1. You should search past threads which discuss this in detail.

    Think about the following:

    a. If you are in someone else's property, and they order you to leave because they don't like what you're doing, what do you think is the right and proper thing to do?

    b. On the other hand, if you are in a public place (eg. along Orchard Rd) and some "security" guard comes out into the middle of the road and tells you to not take pictures of his shopping centre, do you think he can legally do so?

    c. Do you think that if the guard called the police, the police would come down to investigate a dispute about picture taking in a public place?

    If common sense cannot tell you who has the right to do what in these situations, then search the past threads.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    jus make sure you shout really loud "I'M NOT GAY" and then run away like in fear.

    i'm not anti gay btw. but anal people that confront you usually are. so when you shout that. they'll be so embarassed they dont do anything. =) besides i dont think he can sue you for slander cause you didnt not say this to a third party

    hahhaha. usually jus ask why? really? what do you have to hide?
    then say i am commissioned to take picturesss here etc.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    oh yah one more thing. in singapore i think there's no privacy laws. so they cant do much also.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    1. You should search past threads which discuss this in detail.

    Think about the following:

    a. If you are in someone else's property, and they order you to leave because they don't like what you're doing, what do you think is the right and proper thing to do?

    b. On the other hand, if you are in a public place (eg. along Orchard Rd) and some "security" guard comes out into the middle of the road and tells you to not take pictures of his shopping centre, do you think he can legally do so?

    c. Do you think that if the guard called the police, the police would come down to investigate a dispute about picture taking in a public place?

    If common sense cannot tell you who has the right to do what in these situations, then search the past threads.
    looks like u still refuse to come straight to the point... if doubt read my posts again. u don't need a lot of common sense to read and answer questions i'm sure u can do it, just that whether u want or not.

    at the beginning of this thread, u wanted me to visit the govt gazette to look for lines stating the issue. I mentioned that the site was nt that easy to use after all, and I found some articles on ST on this with the SMRT staff responded. Then u started bringing me to the "statutory" thing. I combined the info from what u have mentioned to the situation which the TS has and wanted to know if i have understood u correctly. Then now, u came up with the orchard rd and shopping centre (we are talking about mrt and bus interchange here) and call me to use my common sense and search other threads for info. I am confused.

    I am not a very intelligent person. I don't know much about the law. All i (and i guess a lot of other people here) wanna know is can someone be taking pictures in mrt stations and bus interchange and the staff has no rights or whatsoever to stop the photographer from doing what he/she wants? If the answer is yes (i.e. they have no rights to stop), on what basis of this claim? Just that simple! Difficult? If u know, why don't u just share the info?
    cameras are not made of tofu

  10. #30

    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    To quote the X Files" "The truth is out there". You just need to do the search.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    To quote the X Files" "The truth is out there". You just need to do the search.
    again, u hav proved urself. thanks. that was very helpful.
    Last edited by Fotophilic; 3rd February 2008 at 06:33 PM.
    cameras are not made of tofu

  12. #32

    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    1. Sarcasm gets you nowhere with me.

    2. No one here owes you anything.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    i believe in real life, its a grey area.

    its how much we want to stand up for our rights and belief.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Roger Hicks once suggested tat photographers operate in small groups, everyone armed w a whistle. when being confronted/stopped, the photographer will blow his whistle and other photographers will rush in to record the incident on film.

    will show ppl that taking photographs may ve consequence (being stopped). but stoppin photographers ve consequence too, being SHOT at .

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    but how many of us are guilty of bringing camera phones into the camp during reservist?

    in my last in-camp, while everyone was repeately told that camera phones are prohibited, during CO nite, the moment the tranvestites came out, about 100 camera phones appeared from no-where and started snappin away.

    my RSM jus shrug his shoulders and smiled.
    Last edited by attap seed; 4th February 2008 at 01:54 AM.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    Quote Originally Posted by attap seed View Post
    i believe in real life, its a grey area.

    its how much we want to stand up for our rights and belief.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Roger Hicks once suggested tat photographers operate in small groups, everyone armed w a whistle. when being confronted/stopped, the photographer will blow his whistle and other photographers will rush in to record the incident on film.

    will show ppl that taking photographs may ve consequence (being stopped). but stoppin photographers ve consequence too, being SHOT at .

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    but how many of u are guilty of bringing camera phones into the camp during reservist?

    in my last in-camp, while everyone was repeately told that camera phones are prohibited, during CO nite, the moment the tranvestites came out, about 100 camera phones appeared from no-where and started snappin away.

    my RSM jus shrug his shoulders and smiled.




  15. #35
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    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    1. Sarcasm gets you nowhere with me.

    2. No one here owes you anything.
    yah. same same. BTW, y u OT?
    Happy CNY.
    Last edited by Fotophilic; 4th February 2008 at 10:52 AM.
    cameras are not made of tofu

  16. #36

    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    Following the same line of thought, I think the whole of Sg should ban photography.... we cannot afford to have a bomb going off anywhere in Sg.
    Maybe can send the idea to NAC.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    I get stopped by security personnel all the time. I just smile, apologise and walk away. No drama.

    Sometimes, a good knee in the groin and liver works for those who try to use bodily harm but that rarely happen in our 'friendly' SG neighbourhood.

  18. #38
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    This topic has been brought up YET again hahah ;P

    And I'm glad to see that there are now other people taking up the mantle of fighting for photographer's rights. I can slowly retire if this keeps up, which is good, as it means that my previous sharing has successfully educated more and more photographers.

    Upz in particular for Wai Leong.

    For Fotophillic, I think you need to read Wai Leong's posts yet again, it is quite clear that you are not able to understand what he has said, even though he has put it across quite clearly.

  19. #39
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    I'll just give you a good tip - when people talk about can or cannot, they rely on Legislation, (comprising Acts and Regulations and case law.

    They do not rely on articles written by the people who have vested interests in the matter.

    If I write an article in ST Forum saying that I have the right to punch you if you step into my shop, does it mean that it is legally valid? This is of course an extreme example but one given to illustrate the matter.

    Do think about it.

    In the meantime, if you need more information, do visit the other thread which you have linked here - I believe I have discussed the legal aspects of that matter to significant detail there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fotophilic View Post
    looks like u still refuse to come straight to the point... if doubt read my posts again. u don't need a lot of common sense to read and answer questions i'm sure u can do it, just that whether u want or not.

    at the beginning of this thread, u wanted me to visit the govt gazette to look for lines stating the issue. I mentioned that the site was nt that easy to use after all, and I found some articles on ST on this with the SMRT staff responded. Then u started bringing me to the "statutory" thing. I combined the info from what u have mentioned to the situation which the TS has and wanted to know if i have understood u correctly. Then now, u came up with the orchard rd and shopping centre (we are talking about mrt and bus interchange here) and call me to use my common sense and search other threads for info. I am confused.

    I am not a very intelligent person. I don't know much about the law. All i (and i guess a lot of other people here) wanna know is can someone be taking pictures in mrt stations and bus interchange and the staff has no rights or whatsoever to stop the photographer from doing what he/she wants? If the answer is yes (i.e. they have no rights to stop), on what basis of this claim? Just that simple! Difficult? If u know, why don't u just share the info?
    Last edited by vince123123; 4th February 2008 at 06:35 PM.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Photographers : wat to do when u are confronted?

    So, let's assume it's established that taking pictures in bus interchange, MRT station, public places, etc. is perfectly legal, AND the employees there have no right to chase you away or stop you from taking photos...

    Then again we should question ourselves as photographers whether we want to exercise that right all the time. The repercussions may be such that we're giving photographers a bad name by being anal. As someone has pointed out, things are quite as bad as it is now thanks to "citizen journalism".

    Just some food for thought.

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