View Poll Results: What is your stand on reserving seats using Tissue/belonging in the Food Court etc.

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  • Yes, I am OK with it.

    76 26.48%
  • No, I do not agree on the pratice

    211 73.52%
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Thread: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

  1. #141

    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    You can also view the first act as littering, and the second act as picking up litter and disposing it properly.
    Unless the table is chopped by a bunch of aunties that will scold you like crazy, then you'll wish never touch it.... Seen lots of ang-mohs who ignored this local "custom" and got it from them

  2. #142
    Senior Member velasco's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by sORe-EyEz View Post
    in the 1st place, the tissue left on the seat unlikely a pocket of soiled tissue. if its left behind the previous owner more so you should not have thrown it away. wad if its some other items, would you do the same?

    how can throwing stuff away left behind (if its the case) be a civilised act?
    Well, the anonymity of it all permits us to dispose the stuff. Unless you want to be extra righteous and send the tissue to the nearest police post, that'll be even better. Perhaps the careless soul will come and collect it.

    I regard such scenarios similar to littering cases. If I chanced upon something on the streets/under the void deck, I don’t assume it’s someone else's junk and he prolly will come back to take it back. Cleanliness is one aspect of being civilized. To remain civilized, you would let it remain there? Being civilized is a thing- being silly is another.

    “if its left behind the previous owner more so you should not have thrown it away”

    That is hilarious. You wouldn’t? So if you saw the previous family leaving, your family took over the seats and saw like 3 ½ opened drinks + a plastic bags full of ketchup packets you will not move those stuffs away?

    how can throwing stuff away left behind (if its the case) be an uncivilized act?

    Just my thoughts

  3. #143

    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by velasco View Post
    how can throwing stuff away left behind (if its the case) be an uncivilized act?

    Just my thoughts
    The act (of throwing) itself has no bearing on the civility. Rather is the intent of the act that is of questionable civility. It's a straight forward case of you being as selfish as the person whom have "reserved" the seat. It's always the "I,me,mine" attitude.
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  4. #144
    Senior Member velasco's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    The act (of throwing) itself has no bearing on the civility. Rather is the intent of the act that is of questionable civility. It's a straight forward case of you being as selfish as the person whom have "reserved" the seat. It's always the "I,me,mine" attitude.
    The intention of throwing the tissue away is not being selfish but to make clear that there should not be such a self-absorbed system and to demonstrate fairness amongst us.

    But if you perceive that intention to being equally selfish to the person whom has "reserved" the seat,then we need not have authority such as the Police Force altogether since impressing the law upon wrongdoers are selfish. If the intention is good and beneficial in shaping the society, there is no amount of selfishness in there.
    Last edited by velasco; 6th October 2008 at 04:33 PM.

  5. #145

    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by velasco View Post
    The intention of throwing the tissue away is not being selfish but to make clear that there should not be such a self-absorbed system and to demonstrate fairness amongst us.

    But if you perceive that intention to being equally selfish to the person whom has "reserved" the seat,then we need not have authority such as the Police Force altogether since impressing the law upon wrongdoers are selfish. If the intention is good and beneficial in shaping the society, there is no amount of selfishness in there.
    What you post can only be true IF and only if you (or the person who throw) does not have the intent, and did not, occupy the seat.
    Last edited by CYRN; 6th October 2008 at 04:37 PM.
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  6. #146
    Senior Member velasco's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    What you post can only be true IF and only if you (or the person who throw) does not have the intent, and did not, occupy the seat.
    Well, that does not make sense. If at the same time we benefit ourselves, then so be it.Our main intention is to deter this negative attitude. When all is done, we have every right to sit there or not.

    You mean after we throw that tissue, we have to go find another place to sit ? that is downright stupid. These two intentions are exclusive and not related to the other. It's the same like us wiping wet seats on a bus with the intention to help dry it but by doing so, we should not sit on the sit since our intention initially was to only wipe it dry?So, you go around the bus wiping seats but refrain yourself from sitting on those seats.

    It's the same case as when you wanna enter a toilet but someone placed a mop/obstructive object on the entrance. If your intention is to help remove the objects to allow entrance, yo u shouldn't enter the toilet since your prime intention was to help shift the object. So you will be banned from entering the toilet save your intention changes.

    K you are making me confuse myself.

  7. #147

    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by velasco View Post
    K you are making me confuse myself.
    Hahaha.... but what you posted hits the nail on the head.

    It's (perceived as) downright stupid if you behave like a perfect gracious, moral person in the real world. This whole thread have been a debate of selective reasoning, let the one without guile throw the first stone.

    Dun be confused... you are trying to take advantage of the situation just as the person whom have reserved the seat.
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  8. #148
    vince123123
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    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Hahah, if it was me, the aunties would have wished they never met me We will see who will prevail in such a face-off when the police get called in to catch them for littering .

    There is no "local custom" as you put it - in fact this informal poll puts just as many, if not more people who oppose this "custom". Hence it isn't a custom at all, but a simple act of selfishness.

    If this is a custom, then queue cutting can be considered to be a custom as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by gclaudiu View Post
    Unless the table is chopped by a bunch of aunties that will scold you like crazy, then you'll wish never touch it.... Seen lots of ang-mohs who ignored this local "custom" and got it from them

  9. #149
    vince123123
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    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Actually I don't. The first act is quite obviously an act of littering.

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    You know that this argument holds no water.

  10. #150
    vince123123
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    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    As argued previously, if the owners fully expect the tissue NOT to disappear, they would leave their bags etc to book the seat, instead of leaving a tissue paper. By leaving a low item of value, they fully expect and forsee that it is likely that it will not be there when they return.

    If they have so much faith in their tissue system, then use something more substantial to back up their claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by sORe-EyEz View Post
    in the 1st place, the tissue left on the seat unlikely a pocket of soiled tissue. if its left behind the previous owner more so you should not have thrown it away. wad if its some other items, would you do the same?

    how can throwing stuff away left behind (if its the case) be a civilised act?

  11. #151
    vince123123
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    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    The same can easily be said of the person using the tissue paper to reserve the seat, the I, Me Mine attitude. Look at it from both ends.

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    The act (of throwing) itself has no bearing on the civility. Rather is the intent of the act that is of questionable civility. It's a straight forward case of you being as selfish as the person whom have "reserved" the seat. It's always the "I,me,mine" attitude.

  12. #152
    vince123123
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    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    To answer the following quote and the preceding exchange between CYRN and velaso, actually I will pick up tissue papers left behind even when I merely pass by the seats to buy food (ie I already have a seat). I do not merely wait for a situation where I need a seat before I will pick the tissue up and throw it away. Of course, should I need a seat, and a tissue paper is there, sure its fair game as well, whether I need the seat or not.

    Hence, your theory on trying to take advantage of the situation does not always apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    Hahaha.... but what you posted hits the nail on the head.

    It's (perceived as) downright stupid if you behave like a perfect gracious, moral person in the real world. This whole thread have been a debate of selective reasoning, let the one without guile throw the first stone.

    Dun be confused... you are trying to take advantage of the situation just as the person whom have reserved the seat.

  13. #153

    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Actually I don't. The first act is quite obviously an act of littering.
    First act isn't obviously littering, since neither can you prove that the tissue is a waste.

    http://www.answers.com/topic/litter

    #

    1. A disorderly accumulation of objects; a pile.
    2. Carelessly discarded refuse, such as wastepaper: the litter in the streets after a parade.
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  14. #154

    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    The same can easily be said of the person using the tissue paper to reserve the seat, the I, Me Mine attitude. Look at it from both ends.
    exactly, both parties are pots calling kettles black.

    *edit* to add... the use of tissue (or, for sake of discussion, any item) to reserve a seat is an act of nuisance... the willful removal of another person property can be construed as theft.
    Last edited by CYRN; 6th October 2008 at 06:35 PM.
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  15. #155

    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    As argued previously, if the owners fully expect the tissue NOT to disappear, they would leave their bags etc to book the seat, instead of leaving a tissue paper. By leaving a low item of value, they fully expect and forsee that it is likely that it will not be there when they return.

    If they have so much faith in their tissue system, then use something more substantial to back up their claims.
    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    To answer the following quote and the preceding exchange between CYRN and velaso, actually I will pick up tissue papers left behind even when I merely pass by the seats to buy food (ie I already have a seat). I do not merely wait for a situation where I need a seat before I will pick the tissue up and throw it away. Of course, should I need a seat, and a tissue paper is there, sure its fair game as well, whether I need the seat or not.

    Hence, your theory on trying to take advantage of the situation does not always apply.
    does your "act" constitute as theft should the value of item be more substantial?
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  16. #156

    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    This tissue acts only happen in town (from my observation) where
    1. Seats are limited.
    2. Meal times are fixed and short.

    Well, if you are alone in CBD area durign lunch time. It is almost impossible to eat your lunch within the stipulated time (1 hr) without having someone or something to hold your seat for you.

    If 1 person was to "chop" the whole table for 6 person, while the rest of the group went to buy lunch. Assuming the queue waiting time is about 20mins, is this practise better than tissue paper?

    Or, the group should only find seats when their food are ready?

  17. #157
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    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    this looks like 1 of the challenges an increase in population has contributed. challenge the right to a seat!

    its just 1 of the stress brought on. there has been a string of rants lately, in S'pore on the whole.


  18. #158
    vince123123
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    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Actually, you should be referring to Singapore laws when trying to define litter and theft, and not "answers.com".

    1. Littering:

    Quoted from ENVIRONMENTAL PUBLIC HEALTH ACT:

    Prohibition against throwing refuse, etc., in any public place
    17. —(1) No person shall —

    (a) deposit, drop, place or throw any dust, dirt, paper, ash, carcase, refuse, box, barrel, bale
    or any other article or thing in any public place;

    Hence, under the law, dropping or placing a tissue packet on a seat in a hawker centre would fall under Section 17(1)(a) above.

    Now onto theft.

    2. Theft

    Quoted from PENAL CODE:

    Theft.

    378. Whoever, intending to take dishonestly any movable property out of the possession of any person without that person’s consent, moves that property in order to such taking, is said to commit theft.
    Illustrations

    (g) A finds a ring lying on the high road, not in the possession of any person. A by taking it commits no theft, though he may commit criminal misappropriation of property.

    Hence, there is no theft by taking a tissue paper packet lying in the middle of the food court.

    Now onto criminal misappropriation

    3. Dishonest misappropriation of property.

    Quoted from PENAL CODE:

    403. Whoever dishonestly misappropriates or converts to his own use movable property, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years, or with fine, or with both.
    Explanation 2.
    A person who finds property not in the possession of any other person, and takes such property for the purpose of protecting it for, or of restoring it to the owner, does not take or misappropriate it dishonestly, and is not guilty of an offence; but he is guilty of the offence above defined, if he appropriates it to his own use, when he knows or has the means of discovering the owner, or before he has used reasonable means to discover and give notice to the owner, and has kept the property a reasonable time to enable the owner to claim it.
    Illustrations
    (a) A finds a dollar on the high road, not knowing to whom the dollar belongs. A picks up the dollar. Here A has not committed the offence defined in this section.

    Hence, in order to avoid criminal misappropriation, all you need to do is to take the tissue packet, sit on the seat and eat your food. When the person comes back, return the tissue packet to him. Viola, criminal offence avoided.

    Conclusion

    So, there you have it, the person leaving the tissue packet is guilty of an offence under the Environmental Public Health Act, but the person taking it is not guilty of any offence of theft, nor criminal misappropriation, provided the above recommended steps are taken.

    Finally, since both parties are pots calling the kettle black, then both are equal. Hence rebutting your earlier attempts to try to say that the tissue packet reserver is not in the wrong, and the tissue packet taker is in the wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    First act isn't obviously littering, since neither can you prove that the tissue is a waste.

    http://www.answers.com/topic/litter

    #

    1. A disorderly accumulation of objects; a pile.
    2. Carelessly discarded refuse, such as wastepaper: the litter in the streets after a parade.
    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    exactly, both parties are pots calling kettles black.

    *edit* to add... the use of tissue (or, for sake of discussion, any item) to reserve a seat is an act of nuisance... the willful removal of another person property can be construed as theft.
    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    does your "act" constitute as theft should the value of item be more substantial?

  19. #159
    Senior Member velasco's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Actually, you should be referring to Singapore laws when trying to define litter and theft, and not "answers.com".

    1. Littering:

    Quoted from ENVIRONMENTAL PUBLIC HEALTH ACT:

    Prohibition against throwing refuse, etc., in any public place
    17. —(1) No person shall —

    (a) deposit, drop, place or throw any dust, dirt, paper, ash, carcase, refuse, box, barrel, bale
    or any other article or thing in any public place;

    Hence, under the law, dropping or placing a tissue packet on a seat in a hawker centre would fall under Section 17(1)(a) above.

    Now onto theft.

    2. Theft

    Quoted from PENAL CODE:

    Theft.

    378. Whoever, intending to take dishonestly any movable property out of the possession of any person without that person’s consent, moves that property in order to such taking, is said to commit theft.
    Illustrations

    (g) A finds a ring lying on the high road, not in the possession of any person. A by taking it commits no theft, though he may commit criminal misappropriation of property.

    Hence, there is no theft by taking a tissue paper packet lying in the middle of the food court.

    Now onto criminal misappropriation

    3. Dishonest misappropriation of property.

    Quoted from PENAL CODE:

    403. Whoever dishonestly misappropriates or converts to his own use movable property, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years, or with fine, or with both.
    Explanation 2.
    A person who finds property not in the possession of any other person, and takes such property for the purpose of protecting it for, or of restoring it to the owner, does not take or misappropriate it dishonestly, and is not guilty of an offence; but he is guilty of the offence above defined, if he appropriates it to his own use, when he knows or has the means of discovering the owner, or before he has used reasonable means to discover and give notice to the owner, and has kept the property a reasonable time to enable the owner to claim it.
    Illustrations
    (a) A finds a dollar on the high road, not knowing to whom the dollar belongs. A picks up the dollar. Here A has not committed the offence defined in this section.

    Hence, in order to avoid criminal misappropriation, all you need to do is to take the tissue packet, sit on the seat and eat your food. When the person comes back, return the tissue packet to him. Viola, criminal offence avoided.

    Conclusion

    So, there you have it, the person leaving the tissue packet is guilty of an offence under the Environmental Public Health Act, but the person taking it is not guilty of any offence of theft, nor criminal misappropriation, provided the above recommended steps are taken.

    Finally, since both parties are pots calling the kettle black, then both are equal. Hence rebutting your earlier attempts to try to say that the tissue packet reserver is not in the wrong, and the tissue packet taker is in the wrong.
    excellent.

  20. #160

    Default Re: What is your stand on reserving seats using using Tissue in the Food Court etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Actually, you should be referring to Singapore laws when trying to define litter and theft, and not "answers.com".

    1. Littering:

    Quoted from ENVIRONMENTAL PUBLIC HEALTH ACT:

    Prohibition against throwing refuse, etc., in any public place
    17. —(1) No person shall —

    (a) deposit, drop, place or throw any dust, dirt, paper, ash, carcase, refuse, box, barrel, bale
    or any other article or thing in any public place;

    Hence, under the law, dropping or placing a tissue packet on a seat in a hawker centre would fall under Section 17(1)(a) above.

    Now onto theft.

    2. Theft

    Quoted from PENAL CODE:

    Theft.

    378. Whoever, intending to take dishonestly any movable property out of the possession of any person without that person’s consent, moves that property in order to such taking, is said to commit theft.
    Illustrations

    (g) A finds a ring lying on the high road, not in the possession of any person. A by taking it commits no theft, though he may commit criminal misappropriation of property.

    Hence, there is no theft by taking a tissue paper packet lying in the middle of the food court.

    Now onto criminal misappropriation

    3. Dishonest misappropriation of property.

    Quoted from PENAL CODE:

    403. Whoever dishonestly misappropriates or converts to his own use movable property, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years, or with fine, or with both.
    Explanation 2.
    A person who finds property not in the possession of any other person, and takes such property for the purpose of protecting it for, or of restoring it to the owner, does not take or misappropriate it dishonestly, and is not guilty of an offence; but he is guilty of the offence above defined, if he appropriates it to his own use, when he knows or has the means of discovering the owner, or before he has used reasonable means to discover and give notice to the owner, and has kept the property a reasonable time to enable the owner to claim it.
    Illustrations
    (a) A finds a dollar on the high road, not knowing to whom the dollar belongs. A picks up the dollar. Here A has not committed the offence defined in this section.

    Hence, in order to avoid criminal misappropriation, all you need to do is to take the tissue packet, sit on the seat and eat your food. When the person comes back, return the tissue packet to him. Viola, criminal offence avoided.

    Conclusion

    So, there you have it, the person leaving the tissue packet is guilty of an offence under the Environmental Public Health Act, but the person taking it is not guilty of any offence of theft, nor criminal misappropriation, provided the above recommended steps are taken.

    Finally, since both parties are pots calling the kettle black, then both are equal. Hence rebutting your earlier attempts to try to say that the tissue packet reserver is not in the wrong, and the tissue packet taker is in the wrong.
    It should not be littering if the person putting the pack of tissue paper has the intention of retrieving it later.

    Then agian, if I left the chicken bone on the table after I am done. Will I be charged with littering?

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