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Thread: Patent and what it bounds?

  1. #1
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Patent and what it bounds?

    Recently i came across someone who offered an alternative knowledge over patents with which is not something i'm familiar with. i wonder if i can get further clarification here.

    Is it true that there isn't an entity of global patent rights and each patent rights do only apply in regions as dictated by each patent law?

    in particular, i would like to ask about US patent rights or whatever patent laws that can be sought in USA or by an american, and its application of manufacturing in China by another unassociated party, and its final retail in Singapore.

    Someone implied that a commercial product that is sold globally from a company in the states might have been patented for under a US patent, and therefore it does not restrict anyone in china to duplicate the product design and manufacture using another name and to sell it in Singapore. and that implies there is no factual, moral and legal wrong of such act, and the product allerged cannot be called by anyone as a copy or a bootleg, and in fact, someone who called that allerged product a copy, bootleg, plagiarism, fake and imitations have cross the line of making indiscrete and unfair comments, because of the above reason.

    how true is that?

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    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    Recently i came across someone who offered an alternative knowledge over patents with which is not something i'm familiar with. i wonder if i can get further clarification here.

    Is it true that there isn't an entity of global patent rights and each patent rights do only apply in regions as dictated by each patent law?

    in particular, i would like to ask about US patent rights or whatever patent laws that can be sought in USA or by an american, and its application of manufacturing in China by another unassociated party, and its final retail in Singapore.

    Someone implied that a commercial product that is sold globally from a company in the states might have been patented for under a US patent, and therefore it does not restrict anyone in china to duplicate the product design and manufacture using another name and to sell it in Singapore. and that implies there is no factual, moral and legal wrong of such act, and the product allerged cannot be called by anyone as a copy or a bootleg, and in fact, someone who called that allerged product a copy, bootleg, plagiarism, fake and imitations have cross the line of making indiscrete and unfair comments, because of the above reason.

    how true is that?
    Patents are protected Globally under GTO Agreements (except Medicine), due to concerns over access to medicines by poor nations.

    That is what I know about patents. There could be some changes... but as far as I know it was still the same as I stated above.

    ../azul123

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    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Sorry I meant WTO Agreements... don't know why my fingers typed GTO

    ../azul123

  4. #4

    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Give the IPOS website a read. I think it should answer some of your questions.

    http://www.ipos.gov.sg/leftNav/pat/
    http://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/..._e/agrm7_e.htm

    From what I understand, Patents are afforded protection through legislation and thus, territorial in nature. The global protection that azul referred to is the WTO TRIPS agreement, which attempts to establish a common ground for global IP trade dispute resolution. However, it is still subjected to national laws and administration. As such, getting a patent in one country does not automatically mean that you will get the patent in the other countries of application.

    Based on your scenario, if a US manufacturer failed to apply or secure a patent for an invention in China, there is little they can do to restrict the wholesale copy, manufacture and sale of a US patented product in China.

    Legally, there is no recourse for such a situation. However, to give moral justification to what is out-right theft is downright unscrupulous.

  5. #5
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRT View Post
    Based on your scenario, if a US manufacturer failed to apply or secure a patent for an invention in China, there is little they can do to restrict the wholesale copy, manufacture and sale of a US patented product in China.
    thanks JRT and azul, that answer my general question, but i hope to know specifically about the example. i wonder if any treaty between US and China exists and bounds Chinese factories to the US patents, or does americans have to apply for a separate approval of patent subjectable by the Chinese government?
    Last edited by zoossh; 22nd December 2007 at 07:52 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    thanks, that answer my general question, but i hope to know specifically about the example. i wonder if any treaty between US and China exists and bounds Chinese factories to the US patents, or does americans have to apply for a separate approval of patent subjectable by the Chinese government?
    You would have to look up what sort of trade agreements exist between China and the US. I suspect that the Chinese could copy and market the device as they liked.

    However you asked about then selling this device in Singapore. There probably IS a trade agreement between the US and Singapore, where Singapore will act against an infringement of a US granted patent. They won't be able to stop the thing being manufactured, as that's in China but they could take action against the importers to prevent more being imported and sold in Singapore.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by matthew View Post
    You would have to look up what sort of trade agreements exist between China and the US. I suspect that the Chinese could copy and market the device as they liked.

    However you asked about then selling this device in Singapore. There probably IS a trade agreement between the US and Singapore, where Singapore will act against an infringement of a US granted patent. They won't be able to stop the thing being manufactured, as that's in China but they could take action against the importers to prevent more being imported and sold in Singapore.
    China and US pretty much agree on the same things as any other two prominent countries engaging in trade. Meaning China agrees to protect American intellectual properties. Enforcement is of course an entirely different matter. China has an awfully spotty record when it comes to protecting IP rights, but when someone makes a lot of noise they do tend to make some arrests.

    The US, of course, accepts a certain amount of loss in the interest of trade and diplomacy.

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    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Let me "try" to explain a little bit from my knowledge in layman's term... I am not a lawyer, but I can explain from the business angle.

    If you invent something, a method, or a new way of doing something, you can file a patent in the country you are in or any countries that you wish to file the patent. This patent is effective for a number of years (I can't remember whether there is a fix number or you can specify). After which, the patent is no longer effective and anyone could copy, use the invention or method as "invented" by the original person. If you hold the patent, within that number of years, if anyone wishes to use the invention or method, he will need to contact you and you can charge him a certain amount of money for using that method or invention.

    The reason for a patent is to protect intellectual rights.

    If you did not file a patent in US, some smart guy copied your design, invention, method of doing things and came up with a identical product or a resultant product in US, sell it in US or any parts of the world, you CANNOT sue this chap in US. However, you can prevent him from selling the product back to Singapore as this product or invention has already been filed a patent in the Singapore soil. If the product lands in Singapore, you can take legal action against this person or the distributor who brings in the product to Singapore. But taking legal action against an individual across border is kind of tricky and I cannot comment further as I am not a lawyer.

    Hope that helps.

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    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    Recently i came across someone who offered an alternative knowledge over patents with which is not something i'm familiar with. i wonder if i can get further clarification here.

    Is it true that there isn't an entity of global patent rights and each patent rights do only apply in regions as dictated by each patent law?

    in particular, i would like to ask about US patent rights or whatever patent laws that can be sought in USA or by an american, and its application of manufacturing in China by another unassociated party, and its final retail in Singapore.

    Someone implied that a commercial product that is sold globally from a company in the states might have been patented for under a US patent, and therefore it does not restrict anyone in china to duplicate the product design and manufacture using another name and to sell it in Singapore. and that implies there is no factual, moral and legal wrong of such act, and the product allerged cannot be called by anyone as a copy or a bootleg, and in fact, someone who called that allerged product a copy, bootleg, plagiarism, fake and imitations have cross the line of making indiscrete and unfair comments, because of the above reason.

    how true is that?
    True, and chiif's explanation is correct.
    Simply put, you are protect only in the territory filed and approved.
    It's an expensive exercise to file for worldwide protection and annual renewals.
    just1book, no kidding!

  10. #10

    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123 View Post
    Patents are protected Globally under GTO Agreements (except Medicine), due to concerns over access to medicines by poor nations.

    That is what I know about patents. There could be some changes... but as far as I know it was still the same as I stated above.

    ../azul123
    Each country has it own patent regulations and to play safe, you need to apply to the country that you think is capable of reproducing your 'invention'. It is never the same although WTO said so. So to play safe, you need to normally apply in US, EU, Japan etc.

  11. #11
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    I regret I wasn't able to answer you as soon as I would have liked.

    To answer your questions. There is no entity of global patent rights as you have stated, and patent rights are territorial in nature, ie it only applies on a country by country basis generally (there are exceptions such as a regional patent under the EPO).

    Specific to your question, whilst I do not profess to be an expert in US or China's patent laws, I will try to answer based on a general understanding of patent laws, and based on Singapore patent laws.

    If a product or process has patent protection in the United States, you will not be able to take action for infringing acts in China. This is true as stated by some of the other posters here.

    It would be useful if you could tell us specifically which side you are on, so that better focussed opinions can be given on what you can do. Are you trying to protect your invention? Or are you actually trying to work around a patented product?

    Also, this is based on the assumption you are able to determine that there is indeed no patent protection in China. Sometimes, when people do a proprietor search and find nothing, they think its okay. However, it is not uncommon for patents to be held in the name of different parties in different countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    Recently i came across someone who offered an alternative knowledge over patents with which is not something i'm familiar with. i wonder if i can get further clarification here.

    Is it true that there isn't an entity of global patent rights and each patent rights do only apply in regions as dictated by each patent law?

    in particular, i would like to ask about US patent rights or whatever patent laws that can be sought in USA or by an american, and its application of manufacturing in China by another unassociated party, and its final retail in Singapore.

    Someone implied that a commercial product that is sold globally from a company in the states might have been patented for under a US patent, and therefore it does not restrict anyone in china to duplicate the product design and manufacture using another name and to sell it in Singapore. and that implies there is no factual, moral and legal wrong of such act, and the product allerged cannot be called by anyone as a copy or a bootleg, and in fact, someone who called that allerged product a copy, bootleg, plagiarism, fake and imitations have cross the line of making indiscrete and unfair comments, because of the above reason.

    how true is that?
    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    thanks JRT and azul, that answer my general question, but i hope to know specifically about the example. i wonder if any treaty between US and China exists and bounds Chinese factories to the US patents, or does americans have to apply for a separate approval of patent subjectable by the Chinese government?

  12. #12
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    It would be useful if you could tell us specifically which side you are on, so that better focussed opinions can be given on what you can do. Are you trying to protect your invention? Or are you actually trying to work around a patented product?
    neither. i'm not involved in any product invention or retail, just an ordinary consumer and an amateur photographer.

    i came across someone who said it is wrong of the forumers in clubsnap to call the lambency diffuser (which is almost identical to Gary Fong lightsphere except being thicker and stiffer and in fact fit the flash tighter, with a website using pictures also directly from Gary Fong's website) an imitation, bootleg and various synonyms.

    he substantiate his stand that the manufacturer in china is neither in moral or legal wrong, based on presumed suggestion that Gary Fong may hold only a US patent (or in a patent pending status of such patent). He further mentioned that US patent only applies in USA, Canada and/or Mexico as well as anywhere that US has free trade with on this side of the world. the mention of free trade makes me wonder if that applies for China, which is implicated in this case of discussion.

    as there appears to be a racioethnic element implicating as an agenda, i didn't want to dwell further in that discussion there. however, i would like to seek factual clarification with neutral parties here.
    Last edited by zoossh; 1st January 2008 at 01:28 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    neither. i'm not involved in any product invention or retail, just an ordinary consumer and an amateur photographer.

    i came across someone who said it is wrong of the forumers in clubsnap to call the lambency diffuser (which is almost identical to Gary Fong lightsphere except being thicker and stiffer and in fact fit the flash tighter, with a website using pictures also directly from Gary Fong's website) an imitation, bootleg and various synonyms.

    he substantiate his stand that the manufacturer in china is neither in moral or legal wrong, based on presumed suggestion that Gary Fong may hold only a US patent (or in a patent pending status of such patent). He further mentioned that US patent only applies in USA, Canada and/or Mexico as well as anywhere that US has free trade with on this side of the world. the mention of free trade makes me wonder if that applies for China, which is implicated in this case of discussion.

    as there appears to be a racioethnic element implicating as an agenda, i didn't want to dwell further in that discussion there. however, i would like to seek factual clarification with neutral parties here.
    lol could be just piracy rearing its ugly head again. like how china's imitation goods use funny names for their branded knock offs

  14. #14
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Ah, with more facts it would be easier to comment. I'm not sure where that original thread is, but I'll state my view based on what you have provided.

    The correct position would be that a US patent would only be valid in the US - I'm not sure about "Canada and/or Mexico as well as anywhere that US has free trade with on this side of the world" as these do not appear legally sound - although i once again caution that I'm not an expert in US laws. Free trade and other countries usually do not come into the picture for patent rights.

    Using pictures would of course be copyright infringement, but I suppose we'll focus on the patent aspects of this discussion.

    Are those forummers who said that Gary Fong does not have a patent in China very very sure of this? Unless they have conducted a subject matter search in China, it would be rather premature to say that his invention is not patented in China.

    Other than a patent search in China, these forummers must also have had done a search on the PCT database, as it is possible that a PCT application was filed but not yet entered the national phase in China. Simply summarised, the PCT application is a system whereby a single application can be filed in the International Bureau, and the applicant has 30 months to then decide which countries he wants to further prosecute the patent. Ie, he could have filed something and you didn't know about it simply by searching in China, because he has the right to still get patent protection there.

    Also, under the Paris Convention, if someone files a patent application, say in US, on say, today, he has the right to file an application within 12 months, in say, China. Hence, if he files in US today, and you start producing imitations in 6 months; he can file in China on the 11th month and get you.

    Finally, searches are not comprehensive, in most countries, patent applications are kept secret until 18 months from the date of application. Hence, even if they searched (which I highly doubt they would have), they may not have located it, and later on, it will surface to bite them

    Hence, as you can see, it is not so simple to say that a product does not enjoy patent protection in China. Of course, assuming it is, then they are correct. But it takes a lot more than that to conclude that there is no patent in China. In fact, a product clearance search often costs thousands of dollars, which I highly doubt those forummers you mentioned, undertook.

    By the way, would you by any chance happen to know the patent particulars of at least his US patent? That would assist in seeing if other patents may be pending worldwide.







    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    neither. i'm not involved in any product invention or retail, just an ordinary consumer and an amateur photographer.

    i came across someone who said it is wrong of the forumers in clubsnap to call the lambency diffuser (which is almost identical to Gary Fong lightsphere except being thicker and stiffer and in fact fit the flash tighter, with a website using pictures also directly from Gary Fong's website) an imitation, bootleg and various synonyms.

    he substantiate his stand that the manufacturer in china is neither in moral or legal wrong, based on presumed suggestion that Gary Fong may hold only a US patent (or in a patent pending status of such patent). He further mentioned that US patent only applies in USA, Canada and/or Mexico as well as anywhere that US has free trade with on this side of the world. the mention of free trade makes me wonder if that applies for China, which is implicated in this case of discussion.

    as there appears to be a racioethnic element implicating as an agenda, i didn't want to dwell further in that discussion there. however, i would like to seek factual clarification with neutral parties here.
    Last edited by vince123123; 1st January 2008 at 06:35 PM.

  15. #15
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    nope. it is not to my knowledge of whether he has patent applied in china itself. but i do know that Gary Fong seems not to be able to do anything against such infringement in china.

  16. #16
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Ah I see, how about his patent in the US? Any particulars that can be located?

  17. #17
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Ah I see, how about his patent in the US? Any particulars that can be located?
    some has said his patent is under patent pending status, but under what patent i can't say for sure. presumbably he's american and would have applied for patent in USA.

    i can't really locate the particulars, given that i'm not in commence and business field, so didn't have further insight on this ground.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Patent and what it bounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    some has said his patent is under patent pending status, but under what patent i can't say for sure. presumbably he's american and would have applied for patent in USA.

    i can't really locate the particulars, given that i'm not in commence and business field, so didn't have further insight on this ground.
    Look for a number if the owner had file a patent. The number can be found on the product or on the packaging.

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