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Thread: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

  1. #61
    vince123123
    Guests

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    The implied admission is independent of whether you know or do not know blazerworks.

    And for a "doremon" lover, you are spelling it wrongly :P

    Anyway, I thought it was your "last post here" and you're leaving and/or no longer replying? Why still hanging around?

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post

    what admission? i don't really know blazerworks actually

    but i like doremon.. i used to read a lot of the chinese comic books when i was younger

  2. #62

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    The implied admission is independent of whether you know or do not know blazerworks.

    And for a "doremon" lover, you are spelling it wrongly :P

    Anyway, I thought it was your "last post here" and you're leaving and/or no longer replying? Why still hanging around?
    REGARDING THE MATTER



    selective vision la selective vision

    i'm hanging around to talk to my childhood idol
    the one with the magical bag with everything
    oh wait you just use him as your avatar

    what admission anyways, i don't see how that post was an admission of anything
    other than i am probably MALE (which is clear), and definitely STRAIGHT
    and phobic of arranged marriages like any good modern day boy should be
    Last edited by night86mare; 19th November 2007 at 10:22 AM.

  3. #63
    vince123123
    Guests

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    Your childhood idol whom you mispelt is clearly not here, so I'm not sure who you are addressing.

    Since however despite that fact, you insist on addressing the non-existent entity (despite proclaimations of leaving and not replying), I guess you'll have to wait for him to reply to your queries or doubts.
    Last edited by vince123123; 19th November 2007 at 11:40 AM.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    hi guys...this conversation is going nowhere.
    Let's be nice to one another and if we want to let out our steam we can always beat our wives or girlfriends....

  5. #65
    vince123123
    Guests

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    Yeap, back to the ERP and Traffic issues

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    hi guys...this conversation is going nowhere.
    Let's be nice to one another and if we want to let out our steam we can always beat our wives or girlfriends....

  6. #66

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    at least there is no ad hominem attacks here this time, this is much better than before. just look at the other THREE people. i shall ignore them.

    i am not sure what your 3 examples are talking about, but still, to be fair, the most BASIC, and i stress BASIC supply and demand model uses 2 straight lines. if you go into slightly more depth, you have stuff like indifference CURVES, and much much more than just straight lines. the reason why i compared the guy's argument to a linear model was that it was overly simplistic, do you not agree? he insists that a begets b, b begets c, c begets d, blah blah blah, so a and b are not good. but this sort of argument is easy to defeat - you disprove one link on the chain, and this chain is extremely weak, as others have pointed out, and the entire chain fails.

    you'd see that in more in-depth studies, the demand and supply straight line thing is but rudimentary, anyone who has done economics at a higher level could easily tell you that. the fact is that economists do have to make a lot a lot of presumptions to construct their models, it is not easy, and to me, sometimes good economists who make good predictions could just be lucky, unless they attain consistency.

    1) petrol prices going up, 3/4 rule, are you talking about the causeway restrictions? this is but protectionism in some form, to me there are so many ways to explain this from the government's viewpoint. have you heard of the fairtrade initiative? it is apparently a very big thing here. you can google about it. does it work economically? no. but does it benefit parties in one way or another, perhaps. i think you'd agree with me that life isn't all about economics, and in some sense economics has its limitations in explaining human behaviour.

    2) we banned chewing gum but still sell cigarette. HUH? WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ECONOMICS?

    3) this is extremely simple to explain. when you are talking about drugs, you are talking about a particular slot of "demand behaviour", due to two factors in different instances - addiction and risk factor. hence despite the death penalty, while it is certainly not viable per se (after all, you literally give up everything in your life, facing the death penalty) in economic terms, the people who traffick drugs do so because they BELIEVE that there is a chance of a high payoff with regards to their effort. to this particular group of people, the potential risk taken is by far shadowed by the potential utility stood to be gained.

    why do people speculate and dabble in risky stocks which are volatile? same result. this is sadly why there are people who jump off buildings i guess. sama sama, as one would say.

    also, one is certainly assured that he would not be left with drugs that no one would consume. whenever one is addicted, the behaviour in his demand would naturally shift to priotising irrationally, to spending most of his income of the "addiction" factor.

    i am not entirely sure why one wishes to pose such a challenge over the internet, i could claim to be anything i want to, that is my point. expression of my point of view,is merely something i like to do, and as so many people here have proved, there is not even a need to back up what they say. do note that i am refusing to do this as of now, but seriously though, your 1, 2 and 3 examples, i'm not trying to be funny, but from what little i have learnt of economics, i sincerely doubt you even have a basic understanding of "economic theory".

    i must say that while you have at least, shown a basic courtesy in terms of good discussion, which i really appreciate, do note that what i said initially, about people ganging up to just make personal attacks to feel good about themselves, has already come true. hence, if you wish to discuss this further, should you disagree, you may take it to PM. i will not reply here any further. there is really no point, since there exist people who do not really believe in logical, open discussion, but proclaim themselves to be practioners and advocates of this very cause. hypocritical in the shallowest sense of the word, i guess. i hope you understand.
    Dear Mr. Guru

    Thank you very much for your attempt to my three points. You know why I call you a guru? I just posted three points for discussion, I have not even stated my views and you already concluded that I did not receive proper training in Economics. I once stayed with a professor who major in economics. He told me: Sky, There is no right or wrong in any economics situations, all is in the grey area. If there is absolute right or wrong, then politicians shall not exist at all, there will be no left wing or right wing. People will have only one course and that is voting for the truth. But the world is not so simple, all politicians are trying to sell you their ideas by putting forward economics concepts that resonate with the mass, be it the truth or a fallacy.

    I put up the three points is to better understand your economic view points, and not to challenge you. I am just setting a better stage for our further discussion on the ERP matter.

    We should not try to impress or confuse fellow Csers by using term like Indifference curve. Although, the line is an exponential curve does not means it is of higher level or in depth learning of economics. The indifference curve is one of the most basic model and also the most useless model to be used in our daily lives.
    Do you go to supermarket with your Indifference table and decide to buy how many Sotong and how many prawns so as to stay indifference? Do you hope around the whole island to compare and buy the sotong at the cheapest price?

    My point no 2 has everything to do with economics, am surprise that our guru can’t relate it to economics.

    Let’s keep it simple for everyone to follow, three models suffice to tackle the ERP issue: Supply and Demand; Taxes and dead weight loss; sticky price concept.

    You have posted and I will read it before making any rebuttal.
    Before that, do you have any idea why you feel that people are ganging up to attack you? not just here but everywhere you post? I think this is a more important question for you to tackle at the moment. It will benefit you a lot, if you manage to figure it out.
    Last edited by Silence Sky; 19th November 2007 at 09:59 PM.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    actually incidentally while i am touched by your concern for my well being

    kopitiam is the only place where all these personal attacks happen

    i post A LOT more elsewhere, in the various picture threads, and nothing happens, i get thanked more often than not for my blunt views and words. since vince is a potential stalker on the prowl, you can jsut do a quick search on the posts i make elsewhere. i did not chalk up 5K + posts posting here because it does not add to the post count. just a note: kopitiam happens to be a major section where the most part of kopitiam regular members do nothing but post in kopitiam, hardly see any pictures or this or that. maybe that is why, they really come in to kopitalk, but not really photographers, nor are they serious in any logical discussion, they just come in to express their viewpoints and squash every other dissenting opinion there. unlike photography, i guess. contrary to what you have stated, my dear silence sky, in most of the photography threads i am more often than not, thanked for my blatant in-your-face criticism. i do not see a need to coat my comments nicely, or soft touch any person. if anything, i view a soft touch as pity, and no one really needs pity. what one needs in life is the means to improve, not pity. i can pity a beggar, but it does nothing for him if i pity him. now, if i help him, by teaching him skills, etc, it makes a difference to him.

    like someone once told me, this is an open forums, so you get all sorts. you get me, you get you, you get vince, you get blazer-works, the list goes on. i guess i will eventually learn that, and not bother posting my viewpoint on such things because TIL (this is life).

    is this really what you wish to show the younger generation? then you are no better than what you express your opinion on always. in any case i have made a snap decision to no longer post in kopitiam regarding such matters as far as possible. it has been a long time coming to this, and i will not let my cs experience be tainted by such pointless, idiotic exchanges which serve no positive purpose in my life, and does not seem to serve any positive purpose in any one else's either.

    in any case, may i question you - if the majority agrees on something, does this mean that majority is correct? it seems hypocritical to me that you, of all people, think that it should matter since i do recall that you defended our dear dr csj once, something like this to this extent. yet you slap yourself in the face by applying the same logic WE had applied on dr csj in kopitiam. you can easily say that i am doing the same too, but you see, i do think that i do conduct myself here, on these internet forums in a much more dignified manner than he has irl.

    i must also state that i am immensely irritated by people who bring in their professors, etc, to say things unrelated to anything to the discussion. it reeks of an innate need to validify one's self with one's elders/betters. i also view this as a lack of self-confidence. which is why i may quote people, but i always refer to them anonymously unless the person is clearly, clearly recognised to be a public figure, who has spoken thus publicly and thus it would be easily validated that such a person had said such a thing. do you see how it works? i could say that my ah kong was the top photographer of his time, and he said that crushing film before developing it would help you develop better quality pictures. do you believe me?

    on the other hand, i am afraid that i have to disagree with your professor to a certain extent. YES, obviously ECONOMICS is a grey area. i think i would have asked him to tell me something new. if you trace the development of economic theory you'd see how it has progressed from one school of thought to the other, from smith to marshall to this and that, and even when the majority acknowledge a certain school of thought at any point in time there are dissenting opinions which DO make sense, like veblen. but the thing is, an economist should NEVER EVER sit on the fence. sitting on a fence means you are really spastic and do not have any opinion or mind of your own. like i said earlier, REALISM is key. you see economics to be as grey as it is, AND you acknowledge that what you say may not be 100% true, but you set parameters whereby they hold true. this is how any economic discussion has to be argued, and in the end i guess a best case scenario is where people grudgingly agree with each other, in a cordial manner, given certain premises. but does this ever happen here? no. someone says something, and you see people giving one liners that make personal attacks, and dodge the key points of the person's argument altogether. can you do this at work? even if you can, how long can you last, without any substance? i would not think for very long.

    you say that you understand economic theory, that models are TOOLS to predict human behaviour as they see fit. the indifference curve is indeed a most basic model as well, but you slap yourself in the face saying that linear models are present, blah blah blah, and then putting down indifference curves. as far as i can see, an indifference curve is somewhat more superior than a linear model used to predict ANY behaviour, for there is inclusion of a predictive and intuitive effect of people getting bored with too much of a commodity.

    impressing people with indifference curves? i could just as easily say that you do the same thing, what with your mention on what gpd. it's gdp btw, i was so awed by your economics knowledge that i had to do a web search to ensure that you had indeed made a typo (at least i hope so, if not it would be quite sad for someone to go around saying gross product domestic) instead of some new-fangled idea/term that i had never heard of.

    i bet all the people here will take some parting snipes. but let me state for your sake that you need not bother - for i care not for your opinions of me. i live my life as i see it, and you do the same. cheers.
    Last edited by night86mare; 19th November 2007 at 10:27 PM.

  8. #68
    vince123123
    Guests

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    Resorting to name calling? Any proof to substantiate this defamatory allegation?

    And yes, we all know its your last post, among so many last posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    since vince is a potential stalker on the prowl, you can jsut do a quick search on the posts i make elsewhere.
    Last edited by vince123123; 19th November 2007 at 11:14 PM.

  9. #69

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    How did we digress so far from the ERP discussion?

    One’s virtual life is never too far from the real life.
    Your cs experience is likely what you are experiencing in your daily life.
    You spend a lot of time in CS. You do not have much friend, do you?

    When people do not response to your blatant criticism, it could also mean that people could not be bother with you. That is even more pathetic then having people responding to your rudeness. It could also mean bystanders respect the TS and do not want to bash into threat and have you walloped.

    Why are you mentioning Vince to me, you want me to take side or what? I am not surprise that you receive this kind of attention from fellow Csers.

    Do remind me who is Dr csj. I have short memory.

    I quoted a professor friend solely for reference purposes only as I find a lot of truth in his teaching and I did not know that irritate you so much. On the other hand, you also quoted a friend, didn’t you?
    Why bring your Ah Kong to CS? He should be resting at home.

    You mentioned that you disagree with my friend, and you say yes to his points.
    So what did you actually disagree with his words?

    I say I understand economic theory? In which statement did I claim that?

    You said previously an indifference curves is in-depth learning of Economics and here you say it is indeed a most basic model. Do I need to give you a friendly slap here?

    You claimed that indifference curve is a more superior model than a linear model in predicting any behoviour. If you are set to buy a DSLR, and I offer you ten PNS would you be indifference? According to the indifference curve, at some point my offered number of PNS will eventually make you giving up the DSLR, right?

    Dear Guru, no need to search so hard, just ask me and I will tell you it is typo error for GDP.


    Lets continue tomorrow on your points for ERP and we shall try to stay on course.




    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    actually incidentally while i am touched by your concern for my well being

    kopitiam is the only place where all these personal attacks happen

    i post A LOT more elsewhere, in the various picture threads, and nothing happens, i get thanked more often than not for my blunt views and words. since vince is a potential stalker on the prowl, you can jsut do a quick search on the posts i make elsewhere. i did not chalk up 5K + posts posting here because it does not add to the post count. just a note: kopitiam happens to be a major section where the most part of kopitiam regular members do nothing but post in kopitiam, hardly see any pictures or this or that. maybe that is why, they really come in to kopitalk, but not really photographers, nor are they serious in any logical discussion, they just come in to express their viewpoints and squash every other dissenting opinion there. unlike photography, i guess. contrary to what you have stated, my dear silence sky, in most of the photography threads i am more often than not, thanked for my blatant in-your-face criticism. i do not see a need to coat my comments nicely, or soft touch any person. if anything, i view a soft touch as pity, and no one really needs pity. what one needs in life is the means to improve, not pity. i can pity a beggar, but it does nothing for him if i pity him. now, if i help him, by teaching him skills, etc, it makes a difference to him.

    like someone once told me, this is an open forums, so you get all sorts. you get me, you get you, you get vince, you get blazer-works, the list goes on. i guess i will eventually learn that, and not bother posting my viewpoint on such things because TIL (this is life).

    is this really what you wish to show the younger generation? then you are no better than what you express your opinion on always. in any case i have made a snap decision to no longer post in kopitiam regarding such matters as far as possible. it has been a long time coming to this, and i will not let my cs experience be tainted by such pointless, idiotic exchanges which serve no positive purpose in my life, and does not seem to serve any positive purpose in any one else's either.

    in any case, may i question you - if the majority agrees on something, does this mean that majority is correct? it seems hypocritical to me that you, of all people, think that it should matter since i do recall that you defended our dear dr csj once, something like this to this extent. yet you slap yourself in the face by applying the same logic WE had applied on dr csj in kopitiam. you can easily say that i am doing the same too, but you see, i do think that i do conduct myself here, on these internet forums in a much more dignified manner than he has irl.

    i must also state that i am immensely irritated by people who bring in their professors, etc, to say things unrelated to anything to the discussion. it reeks of an innate need to validify one's self with one's elders/betters. i also view this as a lack of self-confidence. which is why i may quote people, but i always refer to them anonymously unless the person is clearly, clearly recognised to be a public figure, who has spoken thus publicly and thus it would be easily validated that such a person had said such a thing. do you see how it works? i could say that my ah kong was the top photographer of his time, and he said that crushing film before developing it would help you develop better quality pictures. do you believe me?

    on the other hand, i am afraid that i have to disagree with your professor to a certain extent. YES, obviously ECONOMICS is a grey area. i think i would have asked him to tell me something new. if you trace the development of economic theory you'd see how it has progressed from one school of thought to the other, from smith to marshall to this and that, and even when the majority acknowledge a certain school of thought at any point in time there are dissenting opinions which DO make sense, like veblen. but the thing is, an economist should NEVER EVER sit on the fence. sitting on a fence means you are really spastic and do not have any opinion or mind of your own. like i said earlier, REALISM is key. you see economics to be as grey as it is, AND you acknowledge that what you say may not be 100% true, but you set parameters whereby they hold true. this is how any economic discussion has to be argued, and in the end i guess a best case scenario is where people grudgingly agree with each other, in a cordial manner, given certain premises. but does this ever happen here? no. someone says something, and you see people giving one liners that make personal attacks, and dodge the key points of the person's argument altogether. can you do this at work? even if you can, how long can you last, without any substance? i would not think for very long.

    you say that you understand economic theory, that models are TOOLS to predict human behaviour as they see fit. the indifference curve is indeed a most basic model as well, but you slap yourself in the face saying that linear models are present, blah blah blah, and then putting down indifference curves. as far as i can see, an indifference curve is somewhat more superior than a linear model used to predict ANY behaviour, for there is inclusion of a predictive and intuitive effect of people getting bored with too much of a commodity.

    impressing people with indifference curves? i could just as easily say that you do the same thing, what with your mention on what gpd. it's gdp btw, i was so awed by your economics knowledge that i had to do a web search to ensure that you had indeed made a typo (at least i hope so, if not it would be quite sad for someone to go around saying gross product domestic) instead of some new-fangled idea/term that i had never heard of.

    i bet all the people here will take some parting snipes. but let me state for your sake that you need not bother - for i care not for your opinions of me. i live my life as i see it, and you do the same. cheers.
    Last edited by Silence Sky; 20th November 2007 at 12:06 AM.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Resorting to name calling? Any proof to substantiate this defamatory allegation?

    And yes, we all know its your last post, among so many last posts.
    You must have hurt his virtual ego badly before, Correct?

  11. #71

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    hmmm Congestion or Congestions...

  12. #72

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    1. erp discourages people from going to congested areas
    2. people will then use public transport
    3. public transport becomes more used, and public transport operators have to raise costs due to number of vehicles required
    4. public transport operators pass on costs to people
    5. erp becomes less effective to curb traffic congestion and people start driving again, which defeats purpose of 1, loop infinitum


    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    once again, examining the guy's rubbish argument:


    why i think this is a rubbish argument:
    1. is definitely a valid point, this is after all an official reason given, and is intuitive.

    2. by logical deduction, would you agree with me that the majority of people who can afford cars in the first place, will not have any trouble absorbing an additional cost of say, $3? add cbd $5 for a month (hey, i don't drive yet, so don't kill me if it's too much, because it's even better; if it's less, my apologies), becomes $240, a month? i would thus be as bold to make a statement that right now the erp would probably not aid in congestion too much, nor will it persuade a lot of people to switch to public transport.
    Brother, how do you want us to start?

    In your point number 1, you agreed that ERP discourge people from going to congested area.
    In your point number 2, you are quick to refute your point No 1.

    Last edited by Silence Sky; 20th November 2007 at 12:23 AM.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    Quote Originally Posted by maddog View Post
    hmmm Congestion or Congestions...
    hahahs, here comes our Gammar teacher.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    Quote Originally Posted by maddog View Post
    hmmm Congestion or Congestions...
    I guess it is the same thing as MS Words or MS Word.

    I did notice that someone (oh, the irony! boy boy boy are you sharp) brought up in another thread that he was extremely disturbed by this perturbing use of "s". Tsk, this is bad. The standard of English in Singapore Internet forums has dropped drastically. Not that it was very fantastic to begin with.

    In any case, I had already stated that I will post nothing further on the matter, and will only engage in short paragraphs on things that have nothing to do with the subject. If anyone wishes to make any jibes about "last posts", then I will not bother saying "selective vision" in some high-pitched squeaky tone in some bizarre burst of jubilation that I have won some silly argument on the Internet.

    I do not really agree with the statement in the picture in the following link: link.. But I suppose what it intends to say is true. Of course I'd wager that there would be some who will then go on to tell me that I am disrespectful to less fortunate people, in which case, I would have to repeat myself and highlight the first sentence in this paragraph.. Then they will somehow display color-blindness.. Then I will bold it.. Then oh well you get the idea.
    Last edited by night86mare; 20th November 2007 at 12:41 AM.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    I guess it is the same thing as MS Words or MS Word.

    I did notice that someone (oh, the irony! boy boy boy are you sharp) brought up in another thread that he was extremely disturbed by this perturbing use of "s". Tsk, this is bad. The standard of English in Singapore Internet forums has dropped drastically. Not that it was very fantastic to begin with.

    In any case, I had already stated that I will post nothing further on the matter, and will only engage in short paragraphs on things that have nothing to do with the subject.
    Take it eazy...

  16. #76

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence Sky View Post
    Take it eazy...
    Damnit, you just made me rupture a blood vessel.

    How can you not know how to spell "easy"?

    And oh my word, a smiley face. Smiley faces are the devil. We must all practise good Engrish, because good engirhs is good for us erm hahahaha ya la good engirsh is good ok

  17. #77
    vince123123
    Guests

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    Hmm actually I have no idea, maybe I did, but he's probably a bean counter to keep score.

    That said, I do know that it is is last post and last post yet again. I'm not sure why people like to say "this is my last reply on this topic" and then come right back when someone says something he just has to reply on. A case of coming back over and over.

    Perhaps they think that by saying last post, they are immune, hence if they can't rebutt, they will keep quiet and pretend they didn't see it

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence Sky View Post
    You must have hurt his virtual ego badly before, Correct?

  18. #78
    vince123123
    Guests

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    So you're now declaring that you will only go OT on the thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    In any case, I had already stated that I will post nothing further on the matter, and will only engage in short paragraphs on things that have nothing to do with the subject.
    I guess you are referring to yourself since you appear to be suffering from the same selective vision you are alleging unto another. Go read all the posts above, and respond to ALL the points made before you extol on the topic of selective vision.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    If anyone wishes to make any jibes about "last posts", then I will not bother saying "selective vision" in some high-pitched squeaky tone in some bizarre burst of jubilation that I have won some silly argument on the Internet.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions


  20. #80

    Default Re: Interesting Theory on ERP and Traffic Congestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence Sky View Post
    1. erp discourages people from going to congested areas
    2. people will then use public transport
    3. public transport becomes more used, and public transport operators have to raise costs due to number of vehicles required
    4. public transport operators pass on costs to people
    5. erp becomes less effective to curb traffic congestion and people start driving again, which defeats purpose of 1, loop infinitum



    Ummm just to point out. This train of thought presupposes that all ppl have cars in the first place. It also assumes that there is no equilibrium point where the system reaches a stable number of ppl driving, in transport, at a given price for each mode. The only time this is not going to be stable is the introduction of more ppl into the system, as is the case here in singapore.

    But more importantly the comparison btw here and other countries is valid if looked at in context -- it's also valid to say that the tube exemplifies a state that no one in singapore wants to reach. So if that is an example of a good and working transport system that our ministers are looking at, then they should have their salaries cut and put into building better infrastructure.

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