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Thread: nozick - the experiment machine

  1. #41

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    actually if you think about it, to plug into the machine itself is the most selfish act. because you're denying real persons who know you the chance to experience living with you (unless they willingly plug in with you if the whole world is plugged in, then it doesn't really make a difference) the experiences in the machine are as real as they get, but they are based on your own perception of bliss, they are the direct manifestation of your desires (you only get what you want) in the machine, although you'll experience the world like the real world, fundamentally it's just you, you and you.
    couldn't agree more

    after all, it is an indirect declaration that you only care about personal pleasure, above anything else, i.e. like increasing your value to the world

    definitely in a broad sense, we could choose not to plug in because it does not increase society's utility by your being plugged into the machine.. of course that's very economic-orientated, and could lead to further discussion.. blah, i'm doing my economics assignment now.. forgive me

  2. #42
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    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    couldn't agree more

    after all, it is an indirect declaration that you only care about personal pleasure, above anything else, i.e. like increasing your value to the world
    actually by plugging in, you lose all your value to the world, you only increase your self value to yourself, and back to yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    definitely in a broad sense, we could choose not to plug in because it does not increase society's utility by your being plugged into the machine.. of course that's very economic-orientated, and could lead to further discussion.. blah, i'm doing my economics assignment now.. forgive me
    well in the past markets were about resource allocation, now modern markets are more about market creation. to create demand, you need to make people crave, satisfying their unrealised desires is a way

  3. #43

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    actually if you think about it, to plug into the machine itself is the most selfish act. because you're denying real persons who know you the chance to experience living with you (unless they willingly plug in with you if the whole world is plugged in, then it doesn't really make a difference) the experiences in the machine are as real as they get, but they are based on your own perception of bliss, they are the direct manifestation of your desires (you only get what you want) in the machine, although you'll experience the world like the real world, fundamentally it's just you, you and you.
    actually by plugging in, you lose all your value to the world, you only increase your self value to yourself, and back to yourself
    Hmm...interesting, and perhaps yes, that may be the case, or it may not.

    It's all about choice. Choose to plug in, stay in. Choose to plug in, go out. Choose to go in and out. At any point, an individual can bring to those around him or her the benefit of 'shared experience' because he or she can choose to come out and stay out for however long correct? What an individual chooses to do AFTER coming out, whether go back in or stay out is again, a matter of choice, or so it seems. Afterall, we're talking mostly rethorics and what-ifs here...

    OK, let's look at life and relationships - what I bring to my partner, my company and colleagues, friends, family is all ther result of learmings and experiencesd through out life. I can't bring to them what I do without having gone through many things in life, many of which were without them around (they existed elsewhere or not at all in my reality at a past given point in time*), without the benefit of my company, or I would not have been able to experience some of what I have in its entirety, and allowed it to shape my reality, which I now share the results of with abovementioned people, had they been around earlier. In that sense, I was in 'my own machine of life'.

    At any rate, and with no dis-respect, aren't some people already in 'their own machine' like when they choose to spend a lifetime holed away in a cave meditating, living on alpha or delta (or whatever - not sure which one can't remember) brain-waves? Essentially, and for all practical purpose, they mentally and spiritually exist on a different plane. Physically, they may still be on terra firma, but secluded from all other people and society.

    I'm not sure, but these folks don't 'come out' of their 'machines' right? Isn't that a more selfish approach because they're like totally not bringing back to those around them or mankind the benefits of being in their states of chosen existance? Yet they are often held in the highest esteem ... sometimes with almost religious like fervour and fanaticism.


    * Hey, as an aside and OT, which we all love doing (common, admit it), how do you perceive time?

    I mean, how does time exist, really?

    This is something I've always found interesting.

    Does time move ahead, since the saying goes that time and tide waits for no man?

    Or does time stay still, and we move through existance, and since we're moving in contrast to a 'still' entity of time, time seems to move? I've read that the ancient Greeks always perceived time as standing still, and living beings moving ahead, leaving time standing still, behind.
    Last edited by Dream Merchant; 6th November 2007 at 08:18 AM.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Merchant View Post
    Hmm...interesting, and perhaps yes, that may be the case, or it may not.

    It's all about choice. Choose to plug in, stay in. Choose to plug in, go out. Choose to go in and out. At any point, an individual can bring to those around him or her the benefit of 'shared experience' because he or she can choose to come out and stay out for however long correct? What an individual chooses to do AFTER coming out, whether go back in or stay out is again, a matter of choice, or so it seems. Afterall, we're talking mostly rethorics and what-ifs here...

    OK, let's look at life and relationships - what I bring to my partner, my company and colleagues, friends, family is all ther result of learmings and experiencesd through out life. I can't bring to them what I do without having gone through many things in life, many of which were without them around (they existed elsewhere or not at all in my reality at a past given point in time*), without the benefit of my company, or I would not have been able to experience some of what I have in its entirety, and allowed it to shape my reality, which I now share the results of with abovementioned people, had they been around earlier. In that sense, I was in 'my own machine of life'.

    At any rate, and with no dis-respect, aren't some people already in 'their own machine' like when they choose to spend a lifetime holed away in a cave meditating, living on alpha or delta (or whatever - not sure which one can't remember) brain-waves? Essentially, and for all practical purpose, they mentally and spiritually exist on a different plane. Physically, they may still be on terra firma, but secluded from all other people and society.

    I'm not sure, but these folks don't 'come out' of their 'machines' right? Isn't that a more selfish approach because they're like totally not bringing back to those around them or mankind the benefits of being in their states of chosen existance? Yet they are often held in the highest esteem ... sometimes with almost religious like fervour and fanaticism.


    * Hey, as an aside and OT, which we all love doing (common, admit it), how do you perceive time?

    I mean, how does time exist, really?

    This is something I've always found interesting.

    Does time move ahead, since the saying goes that time and tide waits for no man?

    Or does time stay still, and we move through existance, and since we're moving in contrast to a 'still' entity of time, time seems to move? I've read that the ancient Greeks always perceived time as standing still, and living beings moving ahead, leaving time standing still, behind.
    well, the catch phrase is ''plugging into a machine that serves your desires''

  5. #45

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    and i am immensely bored by the people in my tutorial class..
    hehe, so how's it going? is the clubsnap kopitiam a more fruitful discussion environment than a london uni tutorial?

    i guess one of the central questions this thought experiment is trying to get at is whether or not there *is* a reality beyond our perception. i think the answer most people (including myself) would give to this is "no, i don't want to use the machine", simply because we're used to thinking of "reality" as something "better" or more "truthful". but some philosophers argue that there's no meaningful distinction - all we can know is what we perceive. i can't know that i'm sitting in a chair - i can only know that i think i am sitting in a chair. in which case there's no easy distinction between experiences you have with or without the machine.

    putting that aside, if we take this nozick thing at face value, i would still say no to the machine. my reason is that to plug yourself in would be to limit your range of possible experiences to those in the data bank. could you ever write a poem or a novel that hasn't been written yet? or take a photo or paint a painting that doesn't exist? could you invent? create? no - you could only have the sensation of creating. you could borrow the feeling, but nothing new would be born, to make your own life or the lives of others richer.

  6. #46

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    well, the catch phrase is ''plugging into a machine that serves your desires''
    Said many times ~ choice.

    A chosen desire can be anything, and which can serve many purposes. I can choose experiences that enhances my knowledge and ability to be helpful to others, or I can choose to be entirely selfish and replay eating my favourite mee-pok tah with lots of chilli and bak pok over and over. How I use that wealth of experience is another matter, and again, choice comes into play.

    The way I see it, the machine is only a tool. How one uses that tool and to what end is a matter of choice.

    What about the other points I brought up?
    Last edited by Dream Merchant; 6th November 2007 at 12:35 PM.

  7. #47

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by pai View Post
    putting that aside, if we take this nozick thing at face value, i would still say no to the machine. my reason is that to plug yourself in would be to limit your range of possible experiences to those in the data bank.
    I don't know about actual figures, but what if say to date, a human that's 30 years old has so far experienced 1890037643874 memories/feelings/perceptions etc in life, and the data bank holds the collective memories and experiences of 400 billion people over the ages and an assortment of 59389594379241385742309823409584309509485672047234 86247620958762587562567234752038515547656097889735 47862550698567986745763576094765864254983275798365 48375893415609347564236594375678943758246359784350 43860234559389594379241385742309823409584309509485 67204723486247620958762587562567234752038515547656 09788973547862550698567986745763576094765864254983 27579836548375893415609347564236594375678943758246 35978435043860234559389594379241385742309823409584 30950948567204723486247620958762587562567234752038 51554765609788973547862550698567986745763576094765 86425498327579836548375893415609347564236594375678 94375824635978435043860234559389594379241385742309 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38515547656097889735478625506985679867457635760947 65864254983275798365483758934156093475642365943756 78943758246359784350438602345593895943792413857423 09823409584309509485672047234862476209587625875625 67234752038515547656097889735478625506985679867457 63576094765864254983275798365483758934156093475642 36594375678943758246359784350438602345593895943792 41385742309823409584309509485672047234862476209587 62587562567234752038515547656097889735478625506985 67986745763576094765864254983275798365483758934156 09347564236594375678943758246359784350438602345593 89594379241385742309823409584309509485672047234862 47620958762587562567234752038515547656097889735478 62550698567986745763576094765864254983275798365483 75893415609347564236594375678943758246359784350438 60234559389594379241385742309823409584309509485672 04723486247620958762587562567234752038515547656097 88973547862550698567986745763576094765864254983275 79836548375893415609347564236594375678943758246359 78435043860234559389594379241385742309823409584309 50948567204723486247620958762587562567234752038515 54765609788973547862550698567986745763576094765864 25498327579836548375893415609347564236594375678943 75824635978435043860234559389594379241385742309823 40958430950948567204723486247620958762587562567234 75203851554765609788973547862550698567986745763576 09476586425498327579836548375893415609347564236594 37567894375824635978435043860234559389594379241385 74230982340958430950948567204723486247620958762587 56256723475203851554765609788973547862550698567986 74576357609476586425498327579836548375893415609347 56423659437567894375824635978435043860234559389594 37924138574230982340958430950948567204723486247620 95876258756256723475203851554765609788973547862550 69856798674576357609476586425498327579836548375893 41560934756423659437567894375824635978435043860234 55938959437924138574230982340958430950948567204723 48624762095876258756256723475203851554765609788973 54786255069856798674576357609476586425498327579836 54837589341560934756423659437567894375824635978435 04386023455938959437924138574230982340958430950948 56720472348624762095876258756256723475203851554765 60978897354786255069856798674576357609476586425498 32757983654837589341560934756423659437567894375824 63597843504386023455938959437924138574230982340958 43095094856720472348624762095876258756256723475203 85155476560978897354786255069856798674576357609476 58642549832757983654837589341560934756423659437567 8943758246359784350438602345 choices?

    Definitely not infinite, but I'm guessing that the collective memories and experiences would far outnumber the list that one individual can encounter in a life-time.

  8. #48

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Merchant View Post
    I don't know about actual figures, but what if say to date, a human that's 30 years old has so far experienced 1890037643874 memories/feelings/perceptions etc in life, and the data bank holds the collective memories and experiences of 400 billion people over the ages and an assortment of 64236594375678 (...) definitely not infinite, but I'm guessing that the collective memories and experiences would far outnumber the list that one individual can encounter in a life-time.
    more isn't always better, right? as i said in the last part of my post, could you create a new poem/book/painting/photo/invention? or would you only just experience what it feels like to do so?

    that big big number you typed is very big
    but if you're only plugged into the machine then you yourself will never get a chance to make that number bigger.

    of course if you can just plug in plug out any time you want then it's a different thing lah. you can plug yourself in, experience something, then write a more accurate historical novel or something. but u get what i'm saying about the fundamental limit of what can be done when plugged in right?

  9. #49

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by pai View Post
    more isn't always better, right? as i said in the last part of my post, could you create a new poem/book/painting/photo/invention? or would you only just experience what it feels like to do so?
    Not necessarily, and it all depends, and Yes, why not?

    that big big number you typed is very big
    but if you're only plugged into the machine then you yourself will never get a chance to make that number bigger.
    Why not? No one said that I am a machine. I am human, and as human, I will always perceive an experience slightly differently from another. So what I get from the machine will be sightly uniquely mine, and when the result of that process is over, and if my experience of experiencing another's experience becomes part of the data bank of experiences, I have made that number bigger.

    of course if you can just plug in plug out any time you want then it's a different thing lah. you can plug yourself in, experience something, then write a more accurate historical novel or something. but u get what i'm saying about the fundamental limit of what can be done when plugged in right?
    When you're plugged in, I guess you can't do anything. It's like being in a womb. When you're plugged out - ahhh! Besides, a lot of what I wrote was based on the premise that I can plug in and out at will.

  10. #50

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Merchant View Post
    When you're plugged in, I guess you can't do anything. It's like being in a womb. When you're plugged out - ahhh! Besides, a lot of what I wrote was based on the premise that I can plug in and out at will.
    yes actually i think a lot of the difference between what you and i are saying turns on whether or not this premise is true.

    if you can unplug and stay unplugged, then the machine becomes like a movie theatre or a flight simulator or a computer game. it would have a lot of potential for entertainment and training purposes. there wouldn't really be very much to argue about

    i chose to focus on what happens if you stay plugged in because this was the question in the original post: "Should you plug into this machine for life, preprogramming your life's experiences?"

    ie you plug in for life, and the unplugging every two years does not imply a chance to change your mind, but is just something the experiment creator put in to deal with certain questions, as night86mare has already discussed:

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    i would think that nozick introduced that condition to prevent any situation where the "who's to know what's good for you" point comes into play. certainly at 8, you might think something is a good life, i.e. building sandcastles on the beach for days and days on end. at 10, it may change, it may involve getting all the game consoles and playing unlimited games forever. at 12, it may change further, so on and so forth.
    so in the spirit of the question, i'd say it's more fruitful, and a lot more interesting, to talk about it as if it were a lifelong decision. no.. "joyrides", as someone else put it.

    now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Merchant View Post
    Why not? No one said that I am a machine. I am human, and as human, I will always perceive an experience slightly differently from another. So what I get from the machine will be sightly uniquely mine, and when the result of that process is over, and if my experience of experiencing another's experience becomes part of the data bank of experiences, I have made that number bigger.
    ah ok this is very interesting. i'd like to raise two points (i'm not disagreeing with you, these are just ideas for further discussion)...

    1) the machine can give one the experience of writing a novel (says the original question). is having the experience of writing a novel the same as writing a novel?

    2) if there's a feedback loop like you've suggested, where your experience in the machine can spawn new experiences for others, which can in turn give you new experiences to choose from, does this mean that a community has been created that is plugged into a machine. does this community have a history? the members have no idea there's a life outside this "experience", so we return to the question - how is this life different from a life in "reality", to those plugged in? (obviously those not plugged in will see a difference lah)

    oi where is the TS? out pubbing issit
    Last edited by pai; 6th November 2007 at 03:44 PM.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Merchant View Post
    Said many times ~ choice.

    A chosen desire can be anything, and which can serve many purposes. I can choose experiences that enhances my knowledge and ability to be helpful to others, or I can choose to be entirely selfish and replay eating my favourite mee-pok tah with lots of chilli and bak pok over and over. How I use that wealth of experience is another matter, and again, choice comes into play.

    The way I see it, the machine is only a tool. How one uses that tool and to what end is a matter of choice.

    What about the other points I brought up?
    well, if we look at it your way, there's nothing worth discussing, because everything is just as they are, so no need to look at other points anymore

  12. #52

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Oh dear...

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