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Thread: nozick - the experiment machine

  1. #21
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    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    comecome lemme put your medial temporal lobe into the washing machine :P
    chezburgr i can haz?

  2. #22

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    U pay for the service and detergent ah? Can can!

  3. #23

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by vector1 View Post
    I'm trying to plow through everything, but the late hour is making everything soar over my head.

    I personally would not choose to go into the matrix, as if all my actions/experiences are predetermined, is there anymore fun to life?

    Regarding the "pleasure" or "pain" issue, I agree that the good must be defined by the bad.

    If there is no unhappiness, there is no ruler to measure pleasure, and we might end up like one of the kings in the tales of old, pampered beyond all measure, but desperately bored and unhappy, as he has never known anything worse, nor will know anything better.

    Just my weird ramblings here, feel free to ignore them
    no problem, it is early over here.. getting used to the fact that dst is screwing my idea of what time it is in singapore.

    the thing is, you would not KNOW that your actions/experiences are predetermined. you would be blissfully unaware of it, to the point that you would think that your actions and experiences are self-controlled. so it is not really a very valid point.. as one would argue that perception would render it null.

  4. #24

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by lovells19 View Post
    ic.. then it would be interesting.

    some things in life we will never have the time or money to do it.. but having experienced it in the lab will allow one to experience things he might never get to in his whole life time.
    this is why philosophy is amusing, in a way there is no end to it, since there was no correct answer in the first place

    in a sense there is no right and wrong with wanting to plug into the machine, it is after all your choice to reject a choice, and to accept a choice. i hope i'm not sounding too convoluted here.

    certainly, your argument is valid - let me try to paraphrase it - you are saying that by entering the machine you are going to improve your overall pleasure, since you might experience things which are impossible in your life given the current circumstance.

    but is anything set in stone, with regards to real life? i could win the lottery tomorrow and end up a very rich man. in some sense i might even surpass the experiences i have "entered" into the machine, or demanded from it. can you say for sure that you won't?

    or, how do you even compare "pleasure derived" from a certain set of experiences? can you say that you are more happy when comparing two different expereinces for sure? for example, getting a good career versus having a great family life. let's just say in the machine you have requested to be a high flyer and you have a great family. but in real life you may not succeed so much in your career but you still have a great family life. can you say for sure right now that in situation A you will be happier than in situation B? i highly doubt so unless you have experienced both.. and as one knows that is impossible

  5. #25

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    interesting view. the existence of the machine creating wants that would otherwise never have arised, very powerful attraction. the person who plugged in will experience the impossible, but what happens to his life?
    yes, indeed. this is why this proposition is so interesting.

    there is so much to consider - like if the person plugged into the machine awakes, is he going to be the same person that he is in the machine generated world, disconnection and panic aside? are those generated experiences going to shape his character as well as reality can? of course, if the machine is perfect, probably.

    so what i'm interested to know, is what people think the difference between a normal happy life and a happy life in the machine is. or if there is even any difference at all in the first place.

  6. #26

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Merchant View Post
    Oh man, what is there to think about?
    oh, much

    some that have been brought up in previous discussions include the fact that your experiences are in a broad sense, superficial. they are not yours, they are the machine's. does that not bother you? of course this would differ from person to person, i like how cypher says it in the matrix:

    You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize?

    Ignorance is bliss.
    but is it indeed? in the case of the matrix, people do not have a choice. they are plugged in whether they like it or not, and it is not necessarily a great experience that they are going through. but in some sense cypher is making the choice, since he has a choice.. he wants the agents to give him a great fantasy world where he is blissfully ignorant.. but is this really good for him? or is it not.

    also.. one argument put forth by my lecturer was interesting - he said that if you really did not care about reality - let's just say, you had 2 choices

    a) your family is in danger. you can save them, but in choosing to save them you can never enter the machine

    b) your family is in danger. you don't save them, enter the machine, and you will never know that you failed to save them. you will have a replacement generated family in the machine who will love and care for you and not be in danger

    what would be your choice then?

  7. #27

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Hmm...I guess the experience may 'belong' to the machine, but in a sense, once it is 'imparted' to me, and I perceive it, the perception of that experience, as well as any memory that comes with it essentially is mine. If I work on the basis that perception shapes my reality, then no, I would not be particularly bothered by it at this point of my life. Afterall, I do have a choice as to what I 'experience' right? If that is the case, the part which scars me to bits is the value and balance of what I choose.

    When you put an external 3rd or 4th party premium on it, then choice becomes a different matter because it involves others.

    For me, the choice would be to save my family and loose the opportunity to enter the machine.

    Life, my choices and what have you will give me a whole pleathora of experience that will contunue to fuel and shape my perception. And if we really want a shake-up, well ... there's always CS! LOL!

    The thing about perception is that it's an acculmination of shared experience, as well as other cognitive factors. The basic precept is that the machine is 'perfect' in that the spectrum and degree of experience it can create is able to replace reality, or occupy the void that being in that machine creates (does it?), so would you consider that a 'false' or superficial reality, altered reality or an alternative reality?

    BTW, before you continue, I have to tell you that I've hardly read all the more cheem stuff in life, so you might get a blank from me from time to time. Someone must have unplugged my machine! Hahaha!

  8. #28

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    very interesting thread.

    my thoughts are that perception edges out reality because effectively all we know about ourselves and everything around us is what we perceive. Hence, assuming that the machine is perfect and I never find out that my experiences were implanted, whatever I perceive is all real hence, I technically shouldn't be worrying about whether my experiences are real. Even if I have doubts, I think I'll slowly come to accept it. In fact, call me crazy but sometimes I do ponder about the matrix or a parallel situation being real, that whatever thoughts feelings and emotions are all implanted so that I perceive them the way I should (if the machine is perfect, it'll know how to make me perceive what it wants me to perceive). If this is the scenario, I don't think it matters whether or not to plug in.Either way your perception is your reality.

    But I feel that there's an uncertainty loop when you introduce the condition of every two years you get to choose new experiences.
    Assuming you start out plugged in, not knowing about the machine, and you've been perceiving experience A for example. The way I see it, you can only make your next experience choice if you know about the machine and that should introduce doubt in experience A, whether or not it was real. With that doubt, will you choose to plug in or not plug in? If you continue to plug in, you won't know if after two years of experience B whether you'll choose to plug in again or not? Hence a loop of uncertainty, that we can't see past the decisions we have not made. What about after experience C?

    So, if you're asking whether there is a difference in a happy life plugged and unplugged, it then doesn't make a difference if you continue to be plugged in forever, you only know what you perceive. But the two year condition introduces too many factors with decisions that we cannot see past. Also, will we be the same person as we were when plugged in? I think yes because that's the only ME we have known so far.

    Overall, with a broad statement, I think most of us if we knew that a choice existed, we would choose supposedly having real experiences. But if we didn't even know of the choice and it turns out we're plugged in and all our realities are only electrical pulses, we won't even know the difference.The perfect machine may even be able to manipulate our life experiences so that we would never have any doubts about the world in front of us. Eg. if we were in the Matrix, there would be no philosophers, no matrix movie etc.

    Hope I didn't stray from the topic.

  9. #29

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    aiya old stuff la, flogged to death in the matrix; but it came up in one of my modules (philosophy) and i am immensely bored by the people in my tutorial class.. quite sian diao, all the talk about creativity and all that happens is that people keep talking and parroting the main lecturer's ideas.. even his counterarguments and all that jazz.

    hope to find more refreshing views here, since i suppose no one would have attended the lecture.

    so here's the deal:



    cheers

    would you plug in? can just one liner but please, if you can, express your reasons why and why not.. so that a proper discussion can get going
    It's no longer philosophical. I think designer drugs helps to achieve the same thing? Otherwise there's always Second Life? http://secondlife.com/
    Last edited by lsisaxon; 5th November 2007 at 10:18 AM.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post

    also.. one argument put forth by my lecturer was interesting - he said that if you really did not care about reality - let's just say, you had 2 choices

    a) your family is in danger. you can save them, but in choosing to save them you can never enter the machine

    b) your family is in danger. you don't save them, enter the machine, and you will never know that you failed to save them. you will have a replacement generated family in the machine who will love and care for you and not be in danger

    what would be your choice then?
    why not like this

    a) your family is in danger. you can save them, but in choosing to save them you'll die

    b) your family is in danger. you don't save them, enter the machine, and you will never know that you failed to save them. you will have a replacement generated family in the machine who will love and care for you and not be in danger

    hehehehe ...

    edit:

    ok, just thought of it, let's be really really mean ...

    a) your family is in danger. you can save them, but in choosing to save them you'll become a vegetable person and will not be capable of being plugged into the machine.

    b) your family is in danger. you don't save them, enter the machine, and you will never know that you failed to save them. you will have a replacement generated family in the machine who will love and care for you and not be in danger
    Last edited by eikin; 5th November 2007 at 07:42 PM.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    i'll probably kill myself during the 10 mins/10 hrs while i'm out of the machine

  12. #32

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    why not like this

    a) your family is in danger. you can save them, but in choosing to save them you'll die

    b) your family is in danger. you don't save them, enter the machine, and you will never know that you failed to save them. you will have a replacement generated family in the machine who will love and care for you and not be in danger

    hehehehe ...

    edit:

    ok, just thought of it, let's be really really mean ...

    a) your family is in danger. you can save them, but in choosing to save them you'll become a vegetable person and will not be capable of being plugged into the machine.

    b) your family is in danger. you don't save them, enter the machine, and you will never know that you failed to save them. you will have a replacement generated family in the machine who will love and care for you and not be in danger
    Eikin is EVILZ!!!

  13. #33

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Merchant View Post
    Hmm...I guess the experience may 'belong' to the machine, but in a sense, once it is 'imparted' to me, and I perceive it, the perception of that experience, as well as any memory that comes with it essentially is mine. If I work on the basis that perception shapes my reality, then no, I would not be particularly bothered by it at this point of my life. Afterall, I do have a choice as to what I 'experience' right? If that is the case, the part which scars me to bits is the value and balance of what I choose.
    indeed, as one person put it

    who are you to judge what is good for you?

    therefore the choice is really not as simple as it seems, at first sight you think it's a simple choice, if you value certain things over other things, then you will go, if you value other things.. then you will not. but there's really a lot more to think about.

    in that way philosophy is quite amusing
    When you put an external 3rd or 4th party premium on it, then choice becomes a different matter because it involves others.

    For me, the choice would be to save my family and loose the opportunity to enter the machine.

    Life, my choices and what have you will give me a whole pleathora of experience that will contunue to fuel and shape my perception. And if we really want a shake-up, well ... there's always CS! LOL!

    The thing about perception is that it's an acculmination of shared experience, as well as other cognitive factors. The basic precept is that the machine is 'perfect' in that the spectrum and degree of experience it can create is able to replace reality, or occupy the void that being in that machine creates (does it?), so would you consider that a 'false' or superficial reality, altered reality or an alternative reality?

    BTW, before you continue, I have to tell you that I've hardly read all the more cheem stuff in life, so you might get a blank from me from time to time. Someone must have unplugged my machine! Hahaha!
    no one needs to read anything to engage in a fruitful discussion.. you have provided some refreshing views thus far.. and expressed your viewpoint.. no need to explain or apologise

    as for superficial reality, altered reality, alternative reality - i won't be able to tell you

    all i know is that for me, the choice is pretty clear, i will not go in, even if i could live out my wildest dreams.. in some sense i value the sense of realism, in a way you could call it a superficial point, after all that machine is seamless; i would be thinking that i am in reality.

    but being in reality is different from thinking you are in reality.. it's hard to explain.. if i eat a steak, i really want to eat it, i do not want the little things in my brain to tell me that i am eating it, if you catch my drift.

    in a way there are things to be gained from entering the machine, things to be gained from staying out. in that sense, that's why i said there was no wrong or right answer.. just how you express your viewpoint. even just thinking yes i would go is not wrong, if you cannot come up with a proper reason..

  14. #34

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by dreamzcape View Post
    Either way your perception is your reality.
    precisely the point -

    what i think when most people say, NO I WILL NOT GO, they have been brainwashed (oh the irony) by the movie where bad people opt in and good people opt out to "free the world".. if there was REALLY such a machine.. do you think the choice would be so easy?
    But I feel that there's an uncertainty loop when you introduce the condition of every two years you get to choose new experiences.
    Assuming you start out plugged in, not knowing about the machine, and you've been perceiving experience A for example. The way I see it, you can only make your next experience choice if you know about the machine and that should introduce doubt in experience A, whether or not it was real. With that doubt, will you choose to plug in or not plug in? If you continue to plug in, you won't know if after two years of experience B whether you'll choose to plug in again or not? Hence a loop of uncertainty, that we can't see past the decisions we have not made. What about after experience C?
    oh, certainly.. you can opt out i suppose.
    which is why someone in my class did mention that if you could opt out, why not just go in for a joy ride for 2 years.. after all it's only 2 years.

    someone earlier mentioned that being plugged into the machine and being unplugged could subsequently create distortion effects.. i.e. which reality is true? whether the person would suffer from psychotic aftereffects from the "huge strain" rendered to his mind by experiencing 2 separate lives.. that is indeed a valid point.. but here for the purposes of a more limited discussion we will ignore that

    on a separate note while we're on disorientation, wonder if any of you have heard of clive wearing.. if you have the time do read the wiki article in the link here.. it is a very interesting, sad story.. in short, the guy is like the main character in memento.. he has no short term memory, and hence no long term memory. all the memory he has is before his condition started. can you imagine living out your moments in a few seconds.. and never remembering? yet something amazing is that he can play music.. perhaps there is more to music than meets the eye

    extended story about clive wearing from the guardian here
    So, if you're asking whether there is a difference in a happy life plugged and unplugged, it then doesn't make a difference if you continue to be plugged in forever, you only know what you perceive. But the two year condition introduces too many factors with decisions that we cannot see past. Also, will we be the same person as we were when plugged in? I think yes because that's the only ME we have known so far.
    i would think that nozick introduced that condition to prevent any situation where the "who's to know what's good for you" point comes into play. certainly at 8, you might think something is a good life, i.e. building sandcastles on the beach for days and days on end. at 10, it may change, it may involve getting all the game consoles and playing unlimited games forever. at 12, it may change further, so on and so forth.

    what i'm more interested is what happens if you choose a totally unrealistic setting where no one could possibly experience. for example you could fly, etc. what sort of personality would you develop, then?

  15. #35

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    why not like this

    a) your family is in danger. you can save them, but in choosing to save them you'll die

    b) your family is in danger. you don't save them, enter the machine, and you will never know that you failed to save them. you will have a replacement generated family in the machine who will love and care for you and not be in danger

    hehehehe ...

    edit:

    ok, just thought of it, let's be really really mean ...

    a) your family is in danger. you can save them, but in choosing to save them you'll become a vegetable person and will not be capable of being plugged into the machine.

    b) your family is in danger. you don't save them, enter the machine, and you will never know that you failed to save them. you will have a replacement generated family in the machine who will love and care for you and not be in danger
    ...alamak

    then it becomes a test of how selfish you are, in increasing amounts, hahaha
    or how much of a martyr/messiah complex you have

  16. #36

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by rTwin View Post
    i'll probably kill myself during the 10 mins/10 hrs while i'm out of the machine
    interesting,why so?

    because you are not experiencing the good life

    or because you are disgusted at yourself for having chosen the machine?

  17. #37
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    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    ...alamak

    then it becomes a test of how selfish you are, in increasing amounts, hahaha
    or how much of a martyr/messiah complex you have
    let's make it even more complicated. say you saved your family without knowing the outcome in the first place, but you become a vegetable person. will you be willing to let your family plug into the machine? (in the machine they will be able to forget about the pain of you becoming a vegetable person, they will be able to experience living with you as it had been)

    heh heh heh ...

  18. #38
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    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by rTwin View Post
    i'll probably kill myself during the 10 mins/10 hrs while i'm out of the machine
    why not choose to die happy in the machine? save you the pain of leaving the machine

  19. #39

    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    let's make it even more complicated. say you saved your family without knowing the outcome in the first place, but you become a vegetable person. will you be willing to let your family plug into the machine? (in the machine they will be able to forget about the pain of you becoming a vegetable person, they will be able to experience living with you as it had been)

    heh heh heh ...
    siao liao la

    no lor, i must make them take care of me since i will be a vegetable no matter what

    an eye for an eye, i save them, they have to take care of me despite a null knowledge of what is happening

  20. #40
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    Default Re: nozick - the experiment machine

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    ...alamak

    then it becomes a test of how selfish you are, in increasing amounts, hahaha
    actually if you think about it, to plug into the machine itself is the most selfish act. because you're denying real persons who know you the chance to experience living with you (unless they willingly plug in with you if the whole world is plugged in, then it doesn't really make a difference) the experiences in the machine are as real as they get, but they are based on your own perception of bliss, they are the direct manifestation of your desires (you only get what you want) in the machine, although you'll experience the world like the real world, fundamentally it's just you, you and you.

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