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Thread: Looking into the crystal ball

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    Quote Originally Posted by roentarre View Post

    1.3 crop is fine but FF, not necessarily that important. Even for protraits, 1.3X is enough; otherwise we will really lose the body in built VR
    That and more. Half frame brings more good things that a lot of people consider as acquired but who are not in fact :

    - Very good lenses for cheap
    - Fast tele-lens
    - Light lenses
    - Light camera (full frame are heavier).
    - Anti blur at low speed
    - A lot of other things I don't know.

    What brings FF ?

    More dynamic ? I used S3 for a while and it has no more dynamic than my K10d.
    Bigger files ? to fill faster the CF card. anyway, at the end, 99% of shots stay on a screen.
    Less noise ? JPG from K10d are really usable at 1,600 ISO with no problem. in 2% of the case, I need 1,600 ISO, in 0.1% I need more (let's use flash).

    Point and purpose of a camera is to make photo, and to make photo, FF is for rich peoples because FF is completely useless for 99% of the people. Only rich peoples like to buy useless things.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    Quote Originally Posted by stougard View Post
    That and more. Half frame brings more good things that a lot of people consider as acquired but who are not in fact :

    - Very good lenses for cheap
    - Fast tele-lens
    - Light lenses
    - Light camera (full frame are heavier).
    - Anti blur at low speed
    - A lot of other things I don't know.

    What brings FF ?

    More dynamic ? I used S3 for a while and it has no more dynamic than my K10d.
    Bigger files ? to fill faster the CF card. anyway, at the end, 99% of shots stay on a screen.
    Less noise ? JPG from K10d are really usable at 1,600 ISO with no problem. in 2% of the case, I need 1,600 ISO, in 0.1% I need more (let's use flash).

    Point and purpose of a camera is to make photo, and to make photo, FF is for rich peoples because FF is completely useless for 99% of the people. Only rich peoples like to buy useless things.
    I like your analogy ........... I prefer 1.5x crop sensor especially with SR.
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    Quote Originally Posted by stougard View Post
    Point and purpose of a camera is to make photo, and to make photo.
    I agree on this.

    I would like to share my own personal view about the discussion.

    Be it FF or the 1.5 crop factor, I believe Pentax would still produce the 2 different type of camera for different users. Maybe it is just a matter of time.

    Just like the "N" & "C" which they intro new camera with the diff sensor type for different group of user to suit their needs and naturally, the user would select the camera base on how much they can afford to spend or willing to spend.

    Both type of sensors got pro and con, which lots of big bro had mentioned.

    So at the end of the day, the new lineup of pentax would satisfy the desire of the users of the 2 diff type of sensor users

    This is a nice discussion and I hope that we dun get too carried away and got on "fire" with the different views that we had
    Let's get rolling :)

  4. #24

    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    An idea occurred to me. With Pentax always ready to adopt new features, it would be long till it adds liveview to their products. I'm thinking since a video is already present on the LCD, that would make it possible to capture high resolution video too. I wonder why O has not thought of it yet but would be great if Pentax did for their K1D or K100D Ultra or K10D Super!

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    Quote Originally Posted by airconvent View Post
    An idea occurred to me. With Pentax always ready to adopt new features, it would be long till it adds liveview to their products. I'm thinking since a video is already present on the LCD, that would make it possible to capture high resolution video too. I wonder why O has not thought of it yet but would be great if Pentax did for their K1D or K100D Ultra or K10D Super!
    Good idea but they have to develop a better AF sensor than the one that they currently have ........... better and faster AF tracking ..............
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    Quote Originally Posted by NoMoney View Post
    Be it FF or the 1.5 crop factor, I believe Pentax would still produce the 2 different type of camera for different users. Maybe it is just a matter of time.

    About Pentax, the question is not that it will answer to 2 different kinds of users with two different kinds of point of view. It's the question that they have not the money to make it. It's the question that they have no open market for a FF camera and they know that they can not fail once more with a new camera.

    Anybody wants a FF ? simple, go to Nikon, go to Canon and get a FF. And pray that Pentax does not make one in the next years, because it'll be so much a failure on the market that it can bring the whole company to bankrupt.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    Rather difficult for Pentax to go FF, its too soon, the cost is just too high. Also have to think of the lens availability.

    Perhaps the right time is when we start seeing the successor of D80 and D300 using FF. Then Pentex will probably follow suit.

    But then again, we never know until the announcement is made in the coming months.

    Whatever it is, lets hope Pentax's new offering will be fantastic.

    Me ever closer to becoming a Pentaxian.
    Last edited by flowerpot; 22nd October 2007 at 09:45 PM.
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    Wah, so much pessimism.

    The reason we're currently having 1.5x cropped sensors is simply because at the time digital SLRs were introduced, there weren't any FF sensors produced. The whole issue with DSLRs revolved on the availability of sensors camera makers could get their hands on. Since then, the megapixel count has increased and no doubt sensor availability is less of an issue and presumably cost has come down as well.

    Consumers always want better quality and in the case of cameras, camera makers have increased the megapixel count and generally speaking, the image quality with each new generation of cameras have improved. One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to know that the image quality from a FF sensor will invariably be better than that of a cropped sensor. It will merely be a matter of time before FF will be the de facto standard. To say that Pentax doesn't have the means to commercially produce a FF camera is debatable. The K100D and K10D have helped Pentax shore up their user base and reversed the company's decline. I would imagine there would be a market for a FF camera from it's current users and attract new users as well.

    I actually take the view that the future for Pentax is very good. If anything, the companies that I think will face a greater challenge are those adopting the smaller 4/3 standard. They can currently hold their own compared to current APS-C cameras but when the onslaught of FF comes it will be interesting to see how things play out.

    Ha, ha, the one thing that I don't really need or want is LiveView...
    Last edited by creampuff; 23rd October 2007 at 08:52 AM.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    FF or APS-C, doesn't really matter to most users I think. There are plenty of small DC users, the smaller APS-C dSLR cameras will be great upgrade path for most of them. Besides, APS-C is not gonna disappear even when FF price come down to 1kSGD (APS-C would be even cheaper then ).

    I've seen many photos taken by FF cameras like Canon 5D, you can take similar quality photos even with an APS-C camera if you know how

    But if Pentax doesn't come out with FF cameras like C/N/S in a couple of years, the users might abandon it and go with C/N/S even when they buy APS-C cameras, 'cause they can see their futures are bright with leading brands.

    I have faith in Pentax, and I'm sure Pentax would get some good things out soon

    Cheers!

  10. #30

    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    Quote Originally Posted by creampuff View Post
    If anything, the companies that I think will face a greater challenge are those adopting the smaller 4/3 standard. They can currently hold their own compared to current APS-C cameras but when the onslaught of FF comes it will be interesting to see how things play out.
    The FourThird sensor format is starting to show its limitations, most notably noisier images (without resorting to NR tricks) and reduced dynamic range in RAW files. While current 35mm bodies with 1.5x crop sensors have the option of increasing sensor size up to FF to capture more light, the FT format is forever stuck with the same 18x13.5mm design. It would be interesting to see how the FT format stack up against the competition if the megapixel war continues...

    That said, the FT format with its telecentric optical path design excels in wide-ultrawide angle photography. There are people who bought into the FT format just to use the ZD 7-14mm lens (14-28mm in 35mm) or to get away from excessive vignetting, soft corners that plague other FF cameras (like C*non).


    Quote Originally Posted by creampuff View Post
    Ha, ha, the one thing that I don't really need or want is LiveView...
    Don't knock LV, its good for checking Front/Back focusing problems

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    Quote Originally Posted by creampuff View Post
    Wah, so much pessimism.

    Consumers always want better quality and in the case of cameras, camera makers have increased the megapixel count and generally speaking, the image quality with each new generation of cameras have improved. One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to know that the image quality from a FF sensor will invariably be better than that of a cropped sensor. It will merely be a matter of time before FF will be the de facto standard. To say that Pentax doesn't have the means to commercially produce a FF camera is debatable. The K100D and K10D have helped Pentax shore up their user base and reversed the company's decline. I would imagine there would be a market for a FF camera from it's current users and attract new users as well.
    You say that FF is better than 1.5 times crop. This is wrong in most cases because 1.5 crop sensor uses the best part of lenses when FF sensor uses the whole lens.

    You think that K10d has reversed the company's decline, but Pentax is not even able to make new lenses without help and partnerships from third parts lenses maker as Tokina.

    When you say that consumers always better quality, how do you explain that most of them prefer Windows than Linux for their personal computer ? how do you explain that most of them prefer modern music than Mozart or Beethoven ? how do you explain that American cinema is so successful ? I think that consumers don't want always better quality, I think consumers want what marketing and advertising want them to want.

    Following this, I think there are 3 reason that Pentax will not make a FF camera before a very long time :

    - Pentax always tries to make intelligent products
    - Pentax has no money to make a FF camera
    - And most important reason, Pentax has no money to make necessary marketing to sell it.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    Quote Originally Posted by fengwei View Post
    FF or APS-C, doesn't really matter to most users I think. There are plenty of small DC users, the smaller APS-C dSLR cameras will be great upgrade path for most of them. Besides, APS-C is not gonna disappear even when FF price come down to 1kSGD (APS-C would be even cheaper then ).

    I've seen many photos taken by FF cameras like Canon 5D, you can take similar quality photos even with an APS-C camera if you know how

    But if Pentax doesn't come out with FF cameras like C/N/S in a couple of years, the users might abandon it and go with C/N/S even when they buy APS-C cameras, 'cause they can see their futures are bright with leading brands.

    I have faith in Pentax, and I'm sure Pentax would get some good things out soon

    Cheers!
    ya, i think there were some articles mentioning the faults of full frame as well - like despite supposedly theoretically superior IQ, some of the images suffered from softness etc

    but i can't really find it now, hrm

  13. #33
    Senior Member creampuff's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    Quote Originally Posted by stougard View Post
    You say that FF is better than 1.5 times crop. This is wrong in most cases because 1.5 crop sensor uses the best part of lenses when FF sensor uses the whole lens.
    Obviously, this is true only you're using lenses that were originally designed for 35mm film format (eg. Pentax FA, F, A, M series) as they project a bigger image circle than the size of the current sensor. This is not true for cropped sensor lenses (digital only) where the image circle is matched to the smaller sensor, i.e. the lens is resolving to the edge of the image circle of the entire lens.

    Quote Originally Posted by stougard View Post
    You think that K10d has reversed the company's decline, but Pentax is not even able to make new lenses without help and partnerships from third parts lenses maker as Tokina.
    You may not know that Pentax closed down several of their lens production facilities in Japan a few years back. This at the time when film cameras and film based photography was in decline. It was also a time when many camera companies shifted precision manufacturing outside Japan to save cost.

    Pentax isn't the only company that have made design/production tie-ups and in this age of globalisation/outsourcing, and such an arrangement is to be expected. I have no problems with Tokina or Tamron making lenses for Pentax, just so long as the high quality and performance is maintained. (Off topic. Who do you think makes lenses for Sony? Who do you think makes filters for Leica now?)

    I agree with you that marketing is the force that drives consumer buying patterns. That's why I'm upbeat that under the leadership of Hoya, Pentax (as a brand) will have the capability and means to survive the keen competition now.
    Last edited by creampuff; 24th October 2007 at 07:59 AM. Reason: typo

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    Quote Originally Posted by creampuff View Post
    Obviously, this is true only you're using lenses that were originally designed for 35mm film format (eg. Pentax FA, F, A, M series) as they project a bigger image circle than the size of the current sensor. This is not true for cropped sensor lenses (digital only) where the image circle is matched to the smaller sensor, i.e. the lens is resolving to the edge of the image circle of the entire lens.



    You may not know that Pentax closed down several of their lens production facilities in Japan a few years back. This at the time when film cameras and film based photography was in decline. It was also a time when many camera companies shifted precision manufacturing outside Japan to save cost.

    Pentax isn't the only company that have made design/production tie-ups and in this age of globalisation/outsourcing, and such an arrangement is to be expected. I have no problems with Tokina or Tamron making lenses for Pentax, just so long as the high quality and performance is maintained. (Off topic. Who do you think makes lenses for Sony? Who do you think makes filters for Leica now?)

    I agree with you that marketing is the force that drives consumer buying patterns. That's why I'm upbeat that under the leadership of Hoya, Pentax (as a brand) will have the capability and means to survive the keen competition now.
    Well said ........... Long live Pentax!!
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  15. #35
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    Default Re: Looking into the crystal ball

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenten View Post
    Well said ........... Long live Pentax!!
    Well said, but it does not change facts. And facts show that there is no FF Pentax Camera, facts show that there will not be one before a very long time, not before Nikon AND Canon has made it cheap and maybe never as it's not proven and absolutely not sure that FF is a possible market for basic level camera.

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