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Thread: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

  1. #21

    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    Many things are wrong.

    In this case, however, the parties should have claimed from their insurance, rather than fight it out themselves.

    PS. We have the Small Claims tribunal to offer cheap justice for low-value cases (ie under $20,000 in dispute). However, SCT won't do cases involving motor claims.
    ? usually motor accident got wrong party one what so you want to claim against the OTHER guys insurance.

    what is the pay of our Judges? wonder if it is pegged like out minister's pay....

  2. #22
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    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Law only protects those who KNOWS the Law.. not the poor or needy whatsoever. As justice should not take sides to the poor nor the rich.
    “How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.” - Adolf Hitler

  3. #23
    vince123123
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    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    I agree with these statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    Most people who own cars will not be able to qualify for legal aid.

    Frankly, our means testing is so low that only Bangladeshi workers on criminal charges can qualify.
    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    PS. We have the Small Claims tribunal to offer cheap justice for low-value cases (ie under $20,000 in dispute). However, SCT won't do cases involving motor claims.
    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    What's wrong with promoting litigation? It may be better than a situation where people have no worthwhile means to pursue remedial actions for torts against them.

  4. #24

    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Quote Originally Posted by wind30 View Post
    ? usually motor accident got wrong party one what so you want to claim against the OTHER guys insurance.

    what is the pay of our Judges? wonder if it is pegged like out minister's pay....
    You can claim against yours first. Insurance companies have made it very clear that if you want to claim against the other party, you cannot then claim against yours if your claim fails or if you decide to drop your claim halfway.

    Claiming third-party insurance simply means you must be prepared to litgate, if necessary. Then it's LPPL.

  5. #25

    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    You can claim against yours first. Insurance companies have made it very clear that if you want to claim against the other party, you cannot then claim against yours if your claim fails or if you decide to drop your claim halfway.

    Claiming third-party insurance simply means you must be prepared to litgate, if necessary. Then it's LPPL.
    ok. R U a lawyer? I am curious about the above case as the mistake obviously is made by the district judge but how come the teacher need to bear the cost? Shouldn't the high court sentence the district judge to bear the cost of the appeal as he waste everybody's time?

    or is it the case of I cover your backside, next time you cover mine.... a bit like doctors in singapore hard to prove negligence...
    Last edited by wind30; 9th September 2007 at 02:32 PM.

  6. #26

    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    What's wrong with promoting litigation? It may be better than a situation where people have no worthwhile means to pursue remedial actions for torts against them.
    i didn't say it was wrong. just presenting two sides of the argument. suppose you are the defendant in a seemingly non-meritorious claim - you may wish for a less litigious society.

    separately, i agree that more should be done for those that cannot afford legal representation. but this is a problem that has not been solved yet. of cos, the current means test just seems too low. a plug gap solution may be the pro bono scheme that the law society is promoting or the free legal clinics.

  7. #27

    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Quote Originally Posted by brightnessfalls View Post
    i didn't say it was wrong. just presenting two sides of the argument. suppose you are the defendant in a seemingly non-meritorious claim - you may wish for a less litigious society.

    separately, i agree that more should be done for those that cannot afford legal representation. but this is a problem that has not been solved yet. of cos, the current means test just seems too low. a plug gap solution may be the pro bono scheme that the law society is promoting or the free legal clinics.
    1. Doesn't every lawyer's letter begins with rejecting the plaintiff's claims as being completely "without merit", regardless of the circumstances? It's just posturing.

    My view is that you can't have your cake and eat it. Eg if you want human rights, you have to accept that terrorists will find it easier to operate within such a society compared to within a police state. Ditto for a society where litigation is easier. There may be more lawsuits, but it will also be easier for the ordinary man to take big corporations, even the govt, to court.

    2. Free legal clinics are useless. You need someone to take up the case for you, all the way to the end, not just someone telling you what you can consider doing.

    Probono depends on the good graces of the lawyers involved. They're more willing to help in cases such as divorce, but I don't see them helping the public at large to get redress from torts. And certainly they will not take up cases against the govt or even big corporations.
    Last edited by waileong; 9th September 2007 at 06:05 PM.

  8. #28
    vince123123
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    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Agreed.

    Just for information, in free legal clinics, the lawyers involved are prohibited from acting on your behalf in any particular case. They can only advise what they think you can try doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    1. Doesn't every lawyer's letter begins with rejecting the plaintiff's claims as being completely "without merit", regardless of the circumstances? It's just posturing.

    My view is that you can't have your cake and eat it. Eg if you want human rights, you have to accept that terrorists will find it easier to operate within such a society compared to within a police state. Ditto for a society where litigation is easier. There may be more lawsuits, but it will also be easier for the ordinary man to take big corporations, even the govt, to court.

    2. Free legal clinics are useless. You need someone to take up the case for you, all the way to the end, not just someone telling you what you can consider doing.

    Probono depends on the good graces of the lawyers involved. They're more willing to help in cases such as divorce, but I don't see them helping the public at large to get redress from torts. And certainly they will not take up cases against the govt or even big corporations.

  9. #29

    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    1. Doesn't every lawyer's letter begins with rejecting the plaintiff's claims as being completely "without merit", regardless of the circumstances? It's just posturing.

    My view is that you can't have your cake and eat it. Eg if you want human rights, you have to accept that terrorists will find it easier to operate within such a society compared to within a police state. Ditto for a society where litigation is easier. There may be more lawsuits, but it will also be easier for the ordinary man to take big corporations, even the govt, to court.

    2. Free legal clinics are useless. You need someone to take up the case for you, all the way to the end, not just someone telling you what you can consider doing.

    Probono depends on the good graces of the lawyers involved. They're more willing to help in cases such as divorce, but I don't see them helping the public at large to get redress from torts. And certainly they will not take up cases against the govt or even big corporations.
    hi

    it is very disheartening to hear the legal clinics labelled as useless. it is as good as telling those lawyers who have given much of their time that what they are doing is for nothing.

    like i said, they are stop gap measures, and serve their limited purpose in society.

    as for the cases against corporations, or cases against the governments, ask yourself - are you willing to devote yourself, for no pay for a matter that will possibly take up most of your working hours, to a case because you felt sorry for the aggrieved party? you will also probably sacrifice your paying job, for which you are answerable to your employers for. maybe you will, but that is still a big sacrifice to make, and not one that anyone can expect from you. like you said, it will depend on the good graces of the lawyer who agreed to take on the case.

    that is why there is promotion of the pro bono scheme. maybe it will become more acceptable or easier (for people who are employed; those who own their own law firms probably have more say with their time) for lawyers to do such work.

    and i agree with you on not being able to have your cake and eat it. i was just trying to point out one disadvantage of the contingency fee system. it may very well be the solution to the legal aid problem, but not one that appears to be accepted here yet.

  10. #30

    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    1. Doesn't every lawyer's letter begins with rejecting the plaintiff's claims as being completely "without merit", regardless of the circumstances? It's just posturing.
    yes, many letters may be taken to be posturing. but if having considered the issues, and your lawyer thinks you have a bad case, i hope for your sake that he advises you to accede to the demand and settle the matter out of court.

    i was asking you to consider this point in a more litigious society: imagine being sued for a frivolous claim, one that the claimant clearly cannot win. even if you had a watertight case, you would still be forced to spend time and money to fight that frivolous suit.

    the advantage, however, is that you, having a watertight case, should have no worries finding a lawyer on a contingency fee basis.

  11. #31

    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    That's why pro bono won't work. At least, not for the type of situations we illustrated in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by brightnessfalls View Post
    hi as for the cases against corporations, or cases against the governments, ask yourself - are you willing to devote yourself, for no pay for a matter that will possibly take up most of your working hours, to a case because you felt sorry for the aggrieved party? you will also probably sacrifice your paying job, for which you are answerable to your employers for. maybe you will, but that is still a big sacrifice to make, and not one that anyone can expect from you. like you said, it will depend on the good graces of the lawyer who agreed to take on the case.

    that is why there is promotion of the pro bono scheme. maybe it will become more acceptable or easier (for people who are employed; those who own their own law firms probably have more say with their time) for lawyers to do such work.

  12. #32
    Senior Member Hommie's Avatar
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    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Quote Originally Posted by brightnessfalls View Post
    hi

    it is very disheartening to hear the legal clinics labelled as useless. it is as good as telling those lawyers who have given much of their time that what they are doing is for nothing.

    like i said, they are stop gap measures, and serve their limited purpose in society.
    I have to agree with Waileong, free legal clinics is like free doctors to advice on your health, they can tell you what to do and what you should do but can't give you medicine to cure you your diease.

  13. #33

    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    If it is a frivolous suit, I'll win and get costs as well.

    Your assumption here is that people will become frivolous when litigation is cheaper. That's what our govt says too, but I must respectfully disagree with our learned friends.


    Quote Originally Posted by brightnessfalls View Post
    i was asking you to consider this point in a more litigious society: imagine being sued for a frivolous claim, one that the claimant clearly cannot win. even if you had a watertight case, you would still be forced to spend time and money to fight that frivolous suit.

    the advantage, however, is that you, having a watertight case, should have no worries finding a lawyer on a contingency fee basis.

  14. #34
    vince123123
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    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Let me offer you my two cents on why the contingency fees situation is not likely to be accepted here. This is because Singapore is a pro-companies anti-consumer climate. Contingency fees enable the small man to better sue the big corporations. Singapore will have nothing of that since that would make it a negative factor to attracting foreign investors.

    Yes I know that USA has that and we dont see a shortage of investors, but Singapore has to make itself look better than what they have at home.

    Quote Originally Posted by brightnessfalls View Post
    hi

    it is very disheartening to hear the legal clinics labelled as useless. it is as good as telling those lawyers who have given much of their time that what they are doing is for nothing.

    like i said, they are stop gap measures, and serve their limited purpose in society.

    as for the cases against corporations, or cases against the governments, ask yourself - are you willing to devote yourself, for no pay for a matter that will possibly take up most of your working hours, to a case because you felt sorry for the aggrieved party? you will also probably sacrifice your paying job, for which you are answerable to your employers for. maybe you will, but that is still a big sacrifice to make, and not one that anyone can expect from you. like you said, it will depend on the good graces of the lawyer who agreed to take on the case.

    that is why there is promotion of the pro bono scheme. maybe it will become more acceptable or easier (for people who are employed; those who own their own law firms probably have more say with their time) for lawyers to do such work.

    and i agree with you on not being able to have your cake and eat it. i was just trying to point out one disadvantage of the contingency fee system. it may very well be the solution to the legal aid problem, but not one that appears to be accepted here yet.

  15. #35
    vince123123
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    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Yes, the lawyer will advise you to settle out of court in a bad case, or to drop the case. However, when he writes on your behalf to the other side, he will talk as if your case is super good and as if your case is damn strong. That is what posturing is about.

    For your second paragraph, even in a non-contingency fee situation, the same thing happens. Big corporations play a war of attrition against the small folks, running them out of money even in weak cases (see NKF vs the two folks for an example).

    With contingency fees, the small folks are now able to do the same thing to the big corporations, therefore giving a balance. Right now, only corporatiosn can play the war of attrition.

    The contingency fee is for claims which may not be so well founded, but have the potential of a big payout. Its not only for water tight cases and where the litigant can't pay. If it is so watertight, the lawyer can elect to choose to accept deferred payment since he knows its a sure win - this should not be too much of a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by brightnessfalls View Post
    yes, many letters may be taken to be posturing. but if having considered the issues, and your lawyer thinks you have a bad case, i hope for your sake that he advises you to accede to the demand and settle the matter out of court.

    i was asking you to consider this point in a more litigious society: imagine being sued for a frivolous claim, one that the claimant clearly cannot win. even if you had a watertight case, you would still be forced to spend time and money to fight that frivolous suit.

    the advantage, however, is that you, having a watertight case, should have no worries finding a lawyer on a contingency fee basis.

  16. #36

    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Woah...didn't know a motor accident can incur 80k debts???!!


  17. #37

    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    i agree with vince's likely reasons for non-acceptance of the contingency fee system. that is why the biggest headache is how to make the legal system more accessible to the people.

    i think one reading my posts might assume i am not in favour of the contingency fee system but i am just assuming that it would not take root here, given the tradition and the above reasons. my discussions with lawyer friends about how to make the legal system more accessible to the poor always end in a sad muted end because there just doesn't seem to be a good way out, and the contingency fee system just appears to bring with it some problems and is not something the government will allow.

  18. #38

    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    It looks like ancient China to me; The Law is on the side of the rich?

    I have nothing more to say.
    Last edited by johnlim; 10th September 2007 at 01:29 PM.

  19. #39

    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnlim View Post
    It looks like ancient China to me; The Law is on the side of the rich?

    I have nothing more to say.
    What did you expect? A level playing field? It doesn't happen in love, it doesn't happen in life, it certainly doesn't happen in law.

  20. #40

    Default Re: our courts and lawyers, teacher to pay thousands...

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    What did you expect? A level playing field? It doesn't happen in love, it doesn't happen in life, it certainly doesn't happen in law.
    That's why I said "It looks like ancient China to me".

    Whether it is level or not, it lies in the person's heart. Eventually, you get back what you gave . Nature's law is equal, just like the gravity of the earth, it makes no preference. One may think he can take advantage of the law(imperfect) for his own benefit, but there is always a price to pay for at the end of the day.

    To this people, I say "Luck is not always by your side".

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