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Thread: Is 'National Service' necessary?

  1. #281
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    You asked for my dealing with my customers, hence the comparison must necessarily be based on my experiences. I thought that was obvious right from the start - not sure why you are picking on this bone and flogging the dead horse.

    Maybe you want to share your own experiences for time wasting in army compared to your day job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yappy View Post
    Thank you for your clarification.

    Can I say that you are saying(Correct me if I am wrong) that the time wasting is based on:

    1. Some individual experiences vs a whole army+NSF+Reservists?
    2. There is no 'Army Standard in MINDEF'. How do you know?
    3. To compare, there must be some references, so what is the ratio in a 'commercial companies'?

    Regards

  2. #282
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    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yappy View Post
    Enlisted Act started in 1971... over the years, many young men had gone thru it...

    So the question is "Is NS necessary?"
    Sure... why not.
    National Service = Service to the nation.
    Businessman / Salaryman = Service to self.

    For an extreme argument FOR National Service... read Starship Troopers ~ Robert Heinlein (the book...not the crappy movie). Basically, argues that for a person to earn the "right" to vote, he needs to serve in the National Service. Else, how different would you be compared to an "import"?


    For an extreme argument AGAINST National Service... organize Woodstock....

  3. #283

    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zplus View Post
    Sure... why not.
    National Service = Service to the nation.
    Businessman / Salaryman = Service to self.

    For an extreme argument FOR National Service... read Starship Troopers ~ Robert Heinlein (the book...not the crappy movie). Basically, argues that for a person to earn the "right" to vote, he needs to serve in the National Service. Else, how different would you be compared to an "import"?


    For an extreme argument AGAINST National Service... organize Woodstock....
    did you get to vote?

    i didnt.

    and to top it off, does it even matter even if you could vote? =)

  4. #284
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    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratix View Post
    did you get to vote?

    i didnt.

    and to top it off, does it even matter even if you could vote? =)
    In de book bro.... In theory yes....
    In reality... hehehe...

  5. #285

    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw View Post
    You are twisting history to fit your world view. The British outnumbered the Japanese at the time of surrender. What you forget is that the fact that you even some plum opportunities now is because of the sacrifices that many folk have made before you to lay the groundwork for the new generation. I'm not just talking about NS but in all other aspects, such as low pay, lack of social support services etc, which allowed Singapore to be stable and competitive and hence develop economically. That plum career you are harking to, how likely it would have presented itself to you if you lived in Myanmar?

    How about doing your bit for YOUR future generations?
    lol. even if i'm living in Myanmar, i should be able to land myself in that job (all the more, cos there's less of such people doing it).

    you pointed out that i've twisted the facts in my view. but actually, i didnt even point about the brits in my post.

    why? because they arent even supposed to be fighting for a country they dont call home - totally very similar to what i (and alot of guys of my age) are facing as well.

    we dont call this place home, where there's nothing in this country that gives us any sense of belonging. how much belong would you get when your country doesn't even provide for you? and you're expected to give time to it?

    not that i'm whining, but look at the streets today. try going to swimming pools on weekends and tell me what are the ratio of singaporeans vs foreigners? and with all those insane stuff (like annuities, pushing back of retirement age, and having a gov that almost doesn't listen to their people) coming along, it isn't too hard to figure out why so many people around refer SAF as serve and fark off.

    doing my bit for my future generation? what do i have to say about my future? it sure looks bleak in my opinion if all these politics continues. it just erodes the sense of belonging more and more each day.

    and soon, i'm pretty sure that i wont even have to worry about my future generation. i'll be out of singapore anyway.

    *my longest post in CS, yet. =)
    Last edited by Stratix; 28th October 2007 at 01:17 AM.

  6. #286

    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratix View Post
    and soon, i'm pretty sure that i wont even have to worry about my future generation. i'll be out of singapore anyway.
    Tata!

  7. #287
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratix View Post
    i'll be out of singapore anyway.
    haf fun n cya. LOL
    You'll Never Walk Alone! - i have the best job in the world!

  8. #288

    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratix View Post
    i'll be out of singapore anyway.
    Bon Voyage!

  9. #289

    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zplus View Post
    Sure... why not.
    National Service = Service to the nation.
    Businessman / Salaryman = Service to self.

    For an extreme argument FOR National Service... read Starship Troopers ~ Robert Heinlein (the book...not the crappy movie). Basically, argues that for a person to earn the "right" to vote, he needs to serve in the National Service. Else, how different would you be compared to an "import"?


    For an extreme argument AGAINST National Service... organize Woodstock....
    Thanks for the quotes.

    'import'.. are you referring to non-citizen? foreigner? etc????

  10. #290

    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowspeeder View Post
    This reminds of the time when I attended the 3-month JC programme while awaiting for my O level results -- seemed just like yesterday but sure was a long long time ago.

    Anyway, a school mate once commented (as she probably has already decided on applying to study elsewhere): "I don't like this school". Then I replied: "Well, what makes you think the school likes you?"
    Haha... it works both ways urh????

    I am interested in her reaction...!!

  11. #291

    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    1. I already said that there is no army standard, standard in the sense of an official document denoting what waiting vs working times there are in MINDEF. I had said that the word experience was better suited to describe my original intention.

    2. I already said that it was derived from my personal experiences, as well as the anectodal accounts I have heard. It is also congruent with other posters here on the amount of time wasting they themselves experience. There is no precise ratio or formula that you are referring to. I was merely making a comparison between the ratio of work vs waiting in the army, as compared to work vs waiting in commercial companies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yappy View Post
    Thank you for your clarification.

    Can I say that you are saying(Correct me if I am wrong) that the time wasting is based on:

    1. Some individual experiences vs a whole army+NSF+Reservists?
    2. There is no 'Army Standard in MINDEF'. How do you know?
    3. To compare, there must be some references, so what is the ratio in a 'commercial companies'?

    Regards
    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    You asked for my dealing with my customers, hence the comparison must necessarily be based on my experiences. I thought that was obvious right from the start - not sure why you are picking on this bone and flogging the dead horse.

    Maybe you want to share your own experiences for time wasting in army compared to your day job.
    My apology for making you feel and think that I am 'picking on this bone and flogging the dead horse'

    In my posting, I just needed you to clarify 3 points, only 3 points.. The 3 points were:

    "Can I say that you are saying(Correct me if I am wrong) that the time wasting is based on:

    1. Some individual experiences vs a whole army+NSF+Reservists?
    2. There is no 'Army Standard in MINDEF'. How do you know?
    3. To compare, there must be some references, so what is the ratio in a 'commercial companies'?
    "

    I just need the following answers to the 3 points

    1. Yes or no.
    2. I know or I don't know.
    3. The ratio is XX:YY or 'I don't have'

    I dare not, I repeat I dare not compare my personnal experience with the whole army (The army, the NSF and the reservists.).

    Regards

  12. #292

    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratix View Post
    did you get to vote?

    i didnt.

    and to top it off, does it even matter even if you could vote? =)
    It is a policy issue. We vote(majority) our leaders. The leaders decided the best for the people.

    It can be an unpopular decision but a decision has to be made.

    No one policy makes everyone happy but it benefits the majority!

    And tata to you!

    Hope that you have a chance to vote in every policy you want to vote or choose to vote!

    (One suggestion.. get yourself voted into the group of decision making.)

  13. #293
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    1. My own experiences and those of others that I have spoke to before. There is no "vs the whole army of NSFs and reservists" in my previous comments so I'm not sure why you are bringing this up. I didn't say that ALL the army's experiences are similar to mine or those I have spoken to.

    Have you spoken to the whole army + NSF + Reservists? If so, please state for the record.

    2. Again you misinterpreted my point. I never said anything about an Army Standard, as in an official guideline. Do you know if there's any? If so, please state for the record.

    3. I do not have any precise ratios, and I don't think anyone is capable of providing any precise ratios. All I can say is that X is greater than Y, where X is time wasting in the army, and Y is time wasting with my customers.

    If you are capable of giving precise ratios, kindly state so for the record.

    I have never purported to speak on behalf of the whole army, so stop trying to stuff that down my throat

    Quote Originally Posted by Yappy View Post
    My apology for making you feel and think that I am 'picking on this bone and flogging the dead horse'

    In my posting, I just needed you to clarify 3 points, only 3 points.. The 3 points were:

    "Can I say that you are saying(Correct me if I am wrong) that the time wasting is based on:

    1. Some individual experiences vs a whole army+NSF+Reservists?
    2. There is no 'Army Standard in MINDEF'. How do you know?
    3. To compare, there must be some references, so what is the ratio in a 'commercial companies'?
    "

    I just need the following answers to the 3 points

    1. Yes or no.
    2. I know or I don't know.
    3. The ratio is XX:YY or 'I don't have'

    I dare not, I repeat I dare not compare my personnal experience with the whole army (The army, the NSF and the reservists.).

    Regards
    Last edited by vince123123; 29th October 2007 at 01:59 PM.

  14. #294

    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    1. I already said that there is no army standard, standard in the sense of an official document denoting what waiting vs working times there are in MINDEF. I had said that the word experience was better suited to describe my original intention.

    2. I already said that it was derived from my personal experiences, as well as the anectodal accounts I have heard. It is also congruent with other posters here on the amount of time wasting they themselves experience. There is no precise ratio or formula that you are referring to. I was merely making a comparison between the ratio of work vs waiting in the army, as compared to work vs waiting in commercial companies.
    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    You asked for my dealing with my customers, hence the comparison must necessarily be based on my experiences. I thought that was obvious right from the start - not sure why you are picking on this bone and flogging the dead horse.

    Maybe you want to share your own experiences for time wasting in army compared to your day job.
    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    1. My own experiences and those of others that I have spoke to before. There is no "vs the whole army of NSFs and reservists" in my previous comments so I'm not sure why you are bringing this up. I didn't say that ALL the army's experiences are similar to mine or those I have spoken to.

    Have you spoken to the whole army + NSF + Reservists? If so, please state for the record.

    2. Again you misinterpreted my point. I never said anything about an Army Standard, as in an official guideline. Do you know if there's any? If so, please state for the record.

    3. I do not have any precise ratios, and I don't think anyone is capable of providing any precise ratios. All I can say is that X is greater than Y, where X is time wasting in the army, and Y is time wasting with my customers.

    If you are capable of giving precise ratios, kindly state so for the record.

    I have never purported to speak on behalf of the whole army, so stop trying to stuff that down my throat
    "Can I say that you are saying(Correct me if I am wrong) that the time wasting is based on:

    1. Some individual experiences vs a whole army+NSF+Reservists?
    2. There is no 'Army Standard in MINDEF'. How do you know?
    3. To compare, there must be some references, so what is the ratio in a 'commercial companies'? "

    I just need the following answers to the 3 points

    1. Yes or no.
    2. I know or I don't know.
    3. The ratio is XX:YY or 'I don't have'
    ========================================

    My apology again for 'trying to stuff that down my throat'.

    1. Sorry I am wrong. MINDEF = Army + Navy + Air Force + NSFs + Reservists. I missed out Navy and the Air Force and thanks for reminding me.
    2. Can I assume that your answer is 'I don't know'. You only need to answer 'Yes' or 'No'
    3. Can I assume that the answer is 'I don't have'. You only need to answer 'Yes' or 'No'.

    Regards

  15. #295
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Can you let me know why am I being limited in answering your questions in a manner specified by you?

    The funny thing is that I never purported to give any opinions to the issues which you are apparently trying to seek clarification on.

    My opinions have all been said above - all questions are asked and answered.

    Let me now do the same for you

    1. Have you spoken to the whole army + NSF + Reservists? If so, please state for the record.

    2. Do you know if there's any Army Standard? If so, please state for the record.

    3. If you are capable of giving precise ratios, kindly state so for the record.

  16. #296

    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Can you let me know why am I being limited in answering your questions in a manner specified by you?

    The funny thing is that I never purported to give any opinions to the issues which you are apparently trying to seek clarification on.

    My opinions have all been said above - all questions are asked and answered.

    Let me now do the same for you

    1. Have you spoken to the whole army + NSF + Reservists? If so, please state for the record. I have never. Good for your record..

    2. Do you know if there's any Army Standard? If so, please state for the record.The issue of Army Standard was brought up by U. U can keep this as a record too.

    3. If you are capable of giving precise ratios, kindly state so for the record.The word 'ratio' was also brought up by U. U can also save this statement and keep them as your record if you have a lot of hard disk space.
    Thank you for your comments.

    I only want to make life a bit easier for you and I just needed some clarifications and confirmation but I am really confused now!

    I would suggest that you go back to your previous postings on the following:

    1. Army Standard
    2. MINDEF
    3. Ratio

  17. #297

    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratix View Post
    lol. even if i'm living in Myanmar, i should be able to land myself in that job (all the more, cos there's less of such people doing it).

    So where do you receive you Pri and Sec education? In Myanmar?

    So you like the situation in Mynamar?


    you pointed out that i've twisted the facts in my view. but actually, i didnt even point about the brits in my post.

    You did. When the British surrendered the red dot to the Jap, they out numbered the Jap.

    why? because they arent even supposed to be fighting for a country they dont call home - totally very similar to what i (and alot of guys of my age) are facing as well.

    I support U and I can understand how you feel as you dont belong here.

    we dont call this place home, where there's nothing in this country that gives us any sense of belonging. how much belong would you get when your country doesn't even provide for you? and you're expected to give time to it?

    You are stateless and you dont have a home.

    Dont use 'We' use 'I'.

    What do you expect?


    not that i'm whining, but look at the streets today. try going to swimming pools on weekends and tell me what are the ratio of singaporeans vs foreigners? and with all those insane stuff (like annuities, pushing back of retirement age, and having a gov that almost doesn't listen to their people) coming along, it isn't too hard to figure out why so many people around refer SAF as serve and fark off.

    Which swimming pool did you go to? I visited the pool twice a week.
    Do U know why U see so many foreigners in Singapore?
    Those are unpopular policy and they are meant to drive the economy.(Indirectly)


    doing my bit for my future generation? what do i have to say about my future? it sure looks bleak in my opinion if all these politics continues. it just erodes the sense of belonging more and more each day.

    If you do not even have a home, do not talk about future generation. U can still do your bit in another home!

    and soon, i'm pretty sure that i wont even have to worry about my future generation. i'll be out of singapore anyway.

    U dont have to because you dont even have one!

    *my longest post in CS, yet. =)

    Good luck to you... hope this can change you..

    Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country!
    Last edited by Yappy; 30th October 2007 at 08:02 AM.

  18. #298
    vince123123
    Guests

    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    I suggest that you go back to my previous answers on the following; all asked and answered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yappy View Post
    Thank you for your comments.

    I only want to make life a bit easier for you and I just needed some clarifications and confirmation but I am really confused now!

    I would suggest that you go back to your previous postings on the following:

    1. Army Standard
    2. MINDEF
    3. Ratio

  19. #299

    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratix View Post
    lol. even if i'm living in Myanmar, i should be able to land myself in that job (all the more, cos there's less of such people doing it).

    you pointed out that i've twisted the facts in my view. but actually, i didnt even point about the brits in my post.

    why? because they arent even supposed to be fighting for a country they dont call home - totally very similar to what i (and alot of guys of my age) are facing as well.

    we dont call this place home, where there's nothing in this country that gives us any sense of belonging. how much belong would you get when your country doesn't even provide for you? and you're expected to give time to it?

    not that i'm whining, but look at the streets today. try going to swimming pools on weekends and tell me what are the ratio of singaporeans vs foreigners? and with all those insane stuff (like annuities, pushing back of retirement age, and having a gov that almost doesn't listen to their people) coming along, it isn't too hard to figure out why so many people around refer SAF as serve and fark off.

    doing my bit for my future generation? what do i have to say about my future? it sure looks bleak in my opinion if all these politics continues. it just erodes the sense of belonging more and more each day.

    and soon, i'm pretty sure that i wont even have to worry about my future generation. i'll be out of singapore anyway.

    *my longest post in CS, yet. =)
    It is sad to note that there is nothing in this country that gives you a sense of belonging, your Parents and your love ones (if you have any) will even be more sadden by your comment.

    This country has not provided anything for you? How did you get your so call education? What do you eat? Where did you get the water to drink? Which slump are you staying in now? Are you jobless? It is through the government effort that secure you with your food and water supply from other countries, its them again who created a stable economy for you to make a living. They provide you with an opportunity to be able to stay in a place thats well stock with all the modern comfort such as TV, Phone, Air-Con, Water heater etc. What the country has provided you with is a platform for you to be what you are today, always remember your roots and where you come from.

    Your parents brought you up by working in this country, earning an income to feed, educate and house you. Without it you won't even be here enjoying yourself with things that you don't even appreciate.

    I sincerely wish you luck when you leave this country, hope that you can find a place where you will truly feel belong to and never never return. Please leave as soon as possible, this is not the place for you. This country does not welcome people who does not appreciate what they are having for a simple fact that it is this country that gives you this opportunity. It makes me sick to know that we have people who think this way in this country.

    Till today I still do not respect all those Tuang King or Lazy Sxxt that serve the nation together with me during my NS days - No matter how well they have achieve in their career. They have already shown me their true colour during those testing time. With that kind of attitude they have, they does not deserve any good things happening to them. As for your future generation, don't worry too much, with that kind of attitude you have and you without a root, there are none for you to being with.

    If you does not feel that this is your home thats worth fighting for, leave immediately, because this house does not welcome you, don't even think of staying one more day to make use of what it can provide you with, money or education to feed you on so that you can arm yourself enough to leave. This is a place that has nothing to offer to you and its a waste of its resources to feed a parasite.

    Best of luck to those who are so call "without a home" in finding a place that they can call home.
    Canon 30D, G11, 50 f1.8II, 10-22 f3.5-4.5, 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f2.8L IS, EX580II

  20. #300

    Default Re: Is 'National Service' necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by airfins View Post
    It is sad to note that there is nothing in this country that gives you a sense of belonging, your Parents and your love ones (if you have any) will even be more sadden by your comment.

    This country has not provided anything for you? How did you get your so call education? What do you eat? Where did you get the water to drink? Which slump are you staying in now? Are you jobless? It is through the government effort that secure you with your food and water supply from other countries, its them again who created a stable economy for you to make a living. They provide you with an opportunity to be able to stay in a place thats well stock with all the modern comfort such as TV, Phone, Air-Con, Water heater etc. What the country has provided you with is a platform for you to be what you are today, always remember your roots and where you come from.

    Your parents brought you up by working in this country, earning an income to feed, educate and house you. Without it you won't even be here enjoying yourself with things that you don't even appreciate.

    I sincerely wish you luck when you leave this country, hope that you can find a place where you will truly feel belong to and never never return. Please leave as soon as possible, this is not the place for you. This country does not welcome people who does not appreciate what they are having for a simple fact that it is this country that gives you this opportunity. It makes me sick to know that we have people who think this way in this country.

    Till today I still do not respect all those Tuang King or Lazy Sxxt that serve the nation together with me during my NS days - No matter how well they have achieve in their career. They have already shown me their true colour during those testing time. With that kind of attitude they have, they does not deserve any good things happening to them. As for your future generation, don't worry too much, with that kind of attitude you have and you without a root, there are none for you to being with.

    If you does not feel that this is your home thats worth fighting for, leave immediately, because this house does not welcome you, don't even think of staying one more day to make use of what it can provide you with, money or education to feed you on so that you can arm yourself enough to leave. This is a place that has nothing to offer to you and its a waste of its resources to feed a parasite.

    Best of luck to those who are so call "without a home" in finding a place that they can call home.
    i have to say, what does your family members got to do with sense of belong in singapore? if you choose to leave, you could jolly well bring them along, why not?

    food and water, please. it's something you and i paid for. and btw, it's so largely inflated that it's getting harder and harder to provide proper meals. i know it because my parents, today, don't earn money easily as most of you whom sit in nice aircon rooms. after so much inflation happening these days, their salary just dont seem to increase.

    and whatever you've stated, i've rightfully paid for it. infact, i've rightfully paid ALOT for it.

    man. you can be as patriotic as you sound. i'm entitled to my fair share of opinion, simply because whatever i see isn't whatever you see. period.

    and oh, i'm not the only one. i'm not even in the minority groups to begin with.

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