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Thread: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

  1. #421
    Senior Member harrynkl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesecake View Post
    wa, smuggled 'live' rounds from the ORD shoot ah, steady.


    his O.C, Platoon I.C, Platoon Sarge, all tio. swee la! one man to rule them all!!!
    but he already declared he doest have any rounds with him, the commanders will fight this case. becos of a stupic bastxxx the rest of the ppl suffer with him,
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  2. #422
    Senior Member harrynkl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by LazerLordz View Post
    If the Guard Comd/G2IC gets into trouble/DB/lose a place in the local university because of some idiot, I think that idiot should really look around and watch himself when he is out in the future.
    he would be out he still got to go through court mashal, now only civil court, maybe DB, he better watch himself, wait the commanders got friends in MP.
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  3. #423

    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by harrynkl View Post
    but he already declared he doest have any rounds with him, the commanders will fight this case. becos of a stupic bastxxx the rest of the ppl suffer with him,
    His commanders have no case. In a military tribunal, you are guilty before charged. It is a matter of how much punishment u get. In this case, his conducting officer for range most likely won't get DB but will get charged for something else. Its the guard commander that will die. As for the rest of the officers, their career is down the drain. Can forget about promoting.

  4. #424
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by harrynkl View Post
    but he already declared he doest have any rounds with him, the commanders will fight this case. becos of a stupic bastxxx the rest of the ppl suffer with him,
    aiya, this case is big news.

    the public demands an explanation and the gov and the military will gif them an answer.

    since this CPL is not from some wealthy family nor does he have some influential backing, we can expect a GUILTY verdict and a harsh penalty.

    the rest will kena jus as severely.



    the Chinese saying, Kill 1 to appease the rest.




    by the way, there's no such thing as 'fairness'.
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  5. #425
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    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by aeskywan View Post
    His commanders have no case. In a military tribunal, you are guilty before charged. It is a matter of how much punishment u get. In this case, his conducting officer for range most likely won't get DB but will get charged for something else. Its the guard commander that will die. As for the rest of the officers, their career is down the drain. Can forget about promoting.
    han ta ka Ki !!

  6. #426
    Member tim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesecake View Post
    by the way, there's no such thing as 'fairness'.
    I agreed

    Look around in your daily routine, you'll see there're no such thing as fair or not fair.

  7. #427
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    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Very strange, why so many of you are so certain the guard commander or the wacko dude's superiors will face big punishment?

  8. #428

    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yatlapball View Post
    Very strange, why so many of you are so certain the guard commander or the wacko dude's superiors will face big punishment?
    Cos our Minister for Defence already said, those involved will be punished.

  9. #429

    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by blazer_workz View Post
    Maybe no more guard duty for NSF next time..all use CISCO guards..
    Have guard duty, not carrying guns but baton and polycarbonate shield

  10. #430

    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yatlapball View Post
    Very strange, why so many of you are so certain the guard commander or the wacko dude's superiors will face big punishment?
    Because there must be scapegoats to take the blame ma!

  11. #431

    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesecake View Post
    aiya, this case is big news.

    the public demands an explanation and the gov and the military will gif them an answer.

    since this CPL is not from some wealthy family nor does he have some influential backing, we can expect a GUILTY verdict and a harsh penalty.

    the rest will kena jus as severely.



    the Chinese saying, Kill 1 to appease the rest.




    by the way, there's no such thing as 'fairness'.
    I can't agree more

  12. #432
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    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yatlapball View Post
    Very strange, why so many of you are so certain the guard commander or the wacko dude's superiors will face big punishment?
    I remember that during one of my guard duty when i was in service....there was a spot check just after a shift change and they discovered that one of the duty personnel did not return his 5 rounds after his shift..........the guard commanders tio jialat jialat while the personnel just kena a big warning........

    How i know?....I was the one of the guard commanders......

    So i am damm positive that the guard commander and his superiors will face a very harsh punishment........

  13. #433
    Senior Member afbug's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yatlapball View Post
    Very strange, why so many of you are so certain the guard commander or the wacko dude's superiors will face big punishment?
    In the military, the commanders are responsible for the actions/welfare etc of their men. At the guardroom, the guard commander will be present all the time, working/sleeping/resting. So he, at least, will face the music. BOS and DO will likely to get punished too.

    There are cases where during exercises, 1 of the men took off his shirt to cool off and got caught. He signed 3 extras and his commander took 7.

  14. #434
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    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Guard Comdr's/2IC responsibility to ensure that the rounds are returned. The punishment meted out is justifiable.

    In the context of this case, the serviceman escaping and going AWOL with the weapon could not have been foreseen by the superiors. So why should they be punished for the above-mentioned?

    If they ought to be punished for anything, it should be for the failure to ensure that the serviceman return the ammunition. As per what happened in your case.

  15. #435
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    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by afbug View Post
    There are cases where during exercises, 1 of the men took off his shirt to cool off and got caught. He signed 3 extras and his commander took 7.
    This could not possibly have happened without the commander seeing the trooper take off his shirt. As his commander, he ought to be punished for failing to reprimand the errant trooper.

    I understand very well the reason behind why a commander or superior should be punished as matter of overall responsibility.

    And in this particular case, I would say that other than the Guard Comdr, or whoever is manning the desk ensuring that the returning guards return and sign in their ammunition, the other superiors ought to be absolved of responsibility.

  16. #436
    Senior Member afbug's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yatlapball View Post
    Guard Comdr's/2IC responsibility to ensure that the rounds are returned. The punishment meted out is justifiable.

    In the context of this case, the serviceman escaping and going AWOL with the weapon could not have been foreseen by the superiors. So why should they be punished for the above-mentioned?

    If they ought to be punished for anything, it should be for the failure to ensure that the serviceman return the ammunition. As per what happened in your case.
    Bro, not only the live rounds are not accounted for. Assault rifle also missing and he gone MIA. How the guard commander going to answer for it? He did not enforce the reporting procedure of every 30mins during prowling duty. He did not ensure that his sentry keep alert watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yatlapball View Post
    This could not possibly have happened without the commander seeing the trooper take off his shirt. As his commander, he ought to be punished for failing to reprimand the errant trooper.
    Why not. U been in the army? It happened and signed they did! Commander saw, told him off but nothing done and got caught the next moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yatlapball View Post
    And in this particular case, I would say that other than the Guard Comdr, or whoever is manning the desk ensuring that the returning guards return and sign in their ammunition, the other superiors ought to be absolved of responsibility.
    When SAF charges, charge they will. But their punishment might not be that harsh. All duty commanders are suppose to ensure that guard duty is carried out without incidents, especially internal incidents. And they failed in that. 3 major incidents; live rounds, rifle and 1 duty personal missing.

    If other commanders will not be responsible, then why have them on duty? They are there to enforce rules and regulations and to make sure no serious incidents happen.

  17. #437
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    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Commander saw, told him off but nothing done
    And this was his failing. I will not accept a "I already told him" reason. It was his responsibility as section comdr (i presume?) to make the trooper put his shirt back on the moment he saw it. Not 1 second later.

    Based on what I have read so far, the "failure" is with the guard comdr or 2ic (as mentioned in a previous post, whoever was on shift manning the desk at that timing CPL Dave was supposed to have surrendered his ammo and weapon at the guard room after his shift). It would be unfair for the BOS or DO to take the rap because although they are overall responsible for everything that happens in the camp during their duty, they are ultimately not at the guard room at all hours, and neither can their spot checks be made every single minute.

    To put it in another context, if the BOS or DO did a spot check and found the ammo/weapon/personnel missing, they would not be in the wrong would they? They surely would be in alot of sh*t to help with the investigation and drafting of the initial reports, but I would figure that would be just about it.

    Do not be too quick to witchhunt superiors. If they have carried out their duties as per SOP, they would not be in any trouble. Realistically there is no such thing as zero incident. It is how you manage it. If the BOS and DO failed to report on the missing personnel, then that is their failing. Which is not the case here.

    In this case, the guard comdr/2ic has failed in one or more of his procedural duties and therefore should be punished accordingly.

    If one were to "Oh, all the superiors are responsible". Then in this case you would have to ask the president to resign immediately. As he is the supreme commander of the armed forces.

    It is just my viewpoint that the "chasing of who's at fault" in this case ends at the guard comdr/2ic. Of course, my friends you are all free to disagree with me

    add-on: Oh, and also deciding if the sentry is "not vigilant" would also hinge on whether he is actually able to see the point at which CPL Dave escaped from. I am not familiar with the layout of Mandai Hill Camp, thus I cannot comment on this. But if from the sentry post, there is an unrestricted field of view that includes the bunk and the carpark, then the sentry is in hot soup too.
    Last edited by Yatlapball; 20th September 2007 at 12:22 AM. Reason: add-on about sentry

  18. #438

    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    So many cases happened in Army recently... maybe Lee should consider job rotation for his guys too.

  19. #439
    Senior Member afbug's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yatlapball View Post
    And this was his failing. I will not accept a "I already told him" reason. It was his responsibility as section comdr (i presume?) to make the trooper put his shirt back on the moment he saw it. Not 1 second later.
    Ahh thats why the commander signed 7 extras.
    Based on what I have read so far, the "failure" is with the guard comdr or 2ic (as mentioned in a previous post, whoever was on shift manning the desk at that timing CPL Dave was supposed to have surrendered his ammo and weapon at the guard room after his shift). It would be unfair for the BOS or DO to take the rap because although they are overall responsible for everything that happens in the camp during their duty, they are ultimately not at the guard room at all hours, and neither can their spot checks be made every single minute.

    Do not be too quick to witchhunt superiors. If they have carried out their duties as per SOP, they would not be in any trouble. Realistically there is no such thing as zero incident. It is how you manage it. If the BOS and DO failed to report on the missing personnel, then that is their failing. Which is not the case here.
    Yeah but did the DO/BOS ensure that all SOP are carried out? Apprently not as the prowlers did not report every 30mins as reported by the media and SAF. And its not only this matter of things going missing. They also report it 3 hrs late.
    If one were to "Oh, all the superiors are responsible". Then in this case you would have to ask the president to resign immediately. As he is the supreme commander of the armed forces.
    Come on! Dun be daft! Only duty personal are responsible. His other superiors I'm not sure.......
    It is just my viewpoint that the "chasing of who's at fault" in this case ends at the guard comdr/2ic. Of course, my friends you are all free to disagree with me
    Yeah I understand and I disagree with you.

    When 1 man goes missing, heads will already roll. Now plus weapon and ammo....

    Pls dun mind me saying this but it looks like you dun really understand the workings of the military. Not that I understand a lot but I did guard duty before and knew some of the responsibilities and consequences of weapon and ammo go MIA.

    Its not just a small hand gun....when a rifle goes missing, it is a major event. Just like SAF activated units to hunt for a missing rifle in some training area some years back. These assault rifles are lethal even at 100-300m....not to mention close combat. Plus, he is an infantry guy....u'll know that he can make most, if not all rounds count if he fires.

  20. #440

    Default Re: Armed SAF serviceman caught...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yatlapball View Post
    Guard Comdr's/2IC responsibility to ensure that the rounds are returned. The punishment meted out is justifiable.

    In the context of this case, the serviceman escaping and going AWOL with the weapon could not have been foreseen by the superiors. So why should they be punished for the above-mentioned?

    If they ought to be punished for anything, it should be for the failure to ensure that the serviceman return the ammunition. As per what happened in your case.
    Its not like you dun know that people go to sleep during petrolling when doing guard duty. One of my buddy did not return after the two hour shift, we were send out to look for him after 15 mins. By 30 mins he was back at the guard house, found sleeping somewhere. So how? By 30 min report GSOC eh...as ammunition and rifle was missing. Xiao lah...then that guard duty personal will kena jia lat for sleeping as he woke up the entire army and police force.

    hehe

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