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Thread: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Looking at this from another angle, I wonder why the CPF can't get those investment experts (Temasek Hldgs ?) to do the investment of the CPF funds. If you think of how many decades the money is locked up, I'm sure the returns should be better than 2.5%. At least 4-5%, if you compare with an insurance policy, which also locks up your money for the same amout of time.

  2. #82

    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw View Post
    Drop in the bucket. $30million/yr translates to $30 per person over 65/year by 2020. Could minister's salary be lower? I believe so, but it won't make a difference. This change needs to happen.
    Drop in the bucket? Oh yeah I forgot ..... to our leaders, their pay is "peanuts" And how on earth did you come out with your deduction and maths? Dont make sense dude....

    Put it this way, you have countrymen who are still struggling, instead of helping them, you decide that your pay die die must increase if not you will quit. Instead of giving more money to your country men, you give all sorts of lame excuses as to why you cannot give more money to help. And you get people to post in newspapers and internet forums on why you cannot give more money. If you as a minister dont get the additional few millions, will you starve? will you die? will you worry? No you wont cos your bank account is already so full that you can live on the interests. Im sure too you get lots of benefits as a minister too... so instead of telling us "nah my pay wont help solve your problem, why not try reducing your pay? no harm right?" From the way I see it, after next election, the minister's pay will increase again together with GST and many other things. As Furry said, pay and pay till we die.
    Last edited by centuryegg; 20th August 2007 at 06:07 PM.

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    Drop in the bucket? Oh yeah I forgot ..... to our leaders, their pay is "peanuts" And how on earth did you come out with your deduction and maths? Dont make sense dude....
    25% of 4 million over 65 years old, is 1 million people, by year 2020. If we were to reduce g-ment office bearers salaries by approx 2/3rds (i.e. salary 1/3rd of present), my back of the envelope estimate is approx $30-$50 million savings per year. Therefore, in reducing our ministers salary by 2/3rds, we have approx another $30-$50 million per year to distribute to 1 million elderly over 65+ (which I presume is your contention?). These are estimates, and there is an error around each estimate. Still even if the ministerial level were working for free, I don't believe the figure will be higher than around $120/per elderly/year.

    As I said, drop in the bucket that in no way changes the need for structural change.

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    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    Drop in the bucket? Oh yeah I forgot ..... to our leaders, their pay is "peanuts" And how on earth did you come out with your deduction and maths? Dont make sense dude....
    Do at least read a summary of PM's speech, whatever your points of view, he deserves your attention for a short while at least.

    I have reworked the numbers a little. Assuming a savings of $100 million a year (ministers work for almost free), and 16% of 4.5 million = 720,000 over 65, then the per annum distributable quantum is $139/person/yr, max.

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    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    Drop in the bucket? Oh yeah I forgot ..... to our leaders, their pay is "peanuts" And how on earth did you come out with your deduction and maths? Dont make sense dude....

    Put it this way, you have countrymen who are still struggling, instead of helping them, you decide that your pay die die must increase if not you will quit. Instead of giving more money to your country men, you give all sorts of lame excuses as to why you cannot give more money to help. And you get people to post in newspapers and internet forums on why you cannot give more money. If you as a minister dont get the additional few millions, will you starve? will you die? will you worry? No you wont cos your bank account is already so full that you can live on the interests. Im sure too you get lots of benefits as a minister too... so instead of telling us "nah my pay wont help solve your problem, why not try reducing your pay? no harm right?" From the way I see it, after next election, the minister's pay will increase again together with GST and many other things. As Furry said, pay and pay till we die.

    My fren, you need to look at the whole picture. I'd suggest you try and look at it from the perspective of a policy maker and see how it hangs together. Minister's pay is a pianful issue, but don't let that totally distract you from what the g-ment are trying to pursue. At the end of the day, it matters very little oevrall how much they are paid, in terms of distributable cash for the country as a whole.

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw View Post
    Har har! I do my bit in other ways. But you see the quandary don't you. If we want lower taxation then surely the welfare component must be under control. If welfare is under control then surely those who can manage to work should continue to do so?

    All I see in this forum are folk yelling out their self-interest only. "I want lower taxes, fast advancement, high wages, low costs, early retirement, universal welfare, income growth in old age", without considering how they all fit together. At the end of the day, the g-ment needs to cater to all sections of society. If we on this forum, of the DSLR/Photoshop/Travel photography/Blogger ilk, can't even get our heads around the issues and pull our weight, make the necessary compromises and support initiatives, then the g-ment can think up the best policies and none of it would work.
    Low taxes because : there is no welfare system $ for jobless and old ppl.

    We never ask for early retirement, just asking is it realistic to prolong retirement when you know ageism is a reality in singapore.

    Get back to this when i m more free.
    陳綺貞 2010 [夏季練習曲] 巡迴演唱會 Cheer Concert 13 Nov 2010 MAX Pavilion@Singapore Expo

  7. #87

    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw View Post
    My fren, you need to look at the whole picture. I'd suggest you try and look at it from the perspective of a policy maker and see how it hangs together. Minister's pay is a pianful issue, but don't let that totally distract you from what the g-ment are trying to pursue. At the end of the day, it matters very little oevrall how much they are paid, in terms of distributable cash for the country as a whole.
    End of the day you are just trying to brainwash us to to accept that our ministers are becoming filthy rich and that we should accept it. Sorry dude that is one thing I cannot accept. You serve your nation for pride for honour and not for how it can make you a millionaire.

    When you look back, you tell your grandchildren, "I was given the honour of serving Singapore and its people" not "Singapore was lucky to have me as its minister.... and I tell you be a minister too! So that you can be a millionaire like your grandparent!"
    Last edited by centuryegg; 20th August 2007 at 06:43 PM.

  8. #88

    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    The pandora box is opened. The g-ment raise the retirement age now. now is 67. maybe few years down the road, it will be raised to 70, 75, 80..... there is no end, all it needs to say is that because the lifespan is getting longer. need to raise furthur and furthur. no change is the best. let people retire at their "good age" whatever that might be. let them take out their CPF money. It is their money anyway. out of 10,000 maybe one nut will spend with a "big bang" its their dream anyway. they are responsible for it. they cannot blame anybody because the MP can say" look Mr Nut, you have so much money, you spend everything on XXXX and now you blame us???!"

    most old folks are sensible enough, go on modest short trip, give some to children etc. why punish all by raising the retirement age to some high number so that the CPF money cannot be taken out?

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    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    End of the day you are just trying to brainwash us to to accept that our ministers are becoming filthy rich and that we should accept it. Sorry dude that is one thing I cannot accept. You serve your nation for pride for honour and not for how it can make you a millionaire.
    If you can't get past this to look at other issues, then too bad, its really your loss and the loss for other SGreans. Yes it is high pay, perhaps exceedingly so, but that does not mean they do not know how to make policy. Do yourself a favour and lift this particular chip off your shoulder for a minute and look at the retirement age issue on its own merit, will you?

    On another point, I'm not interested in brain-washing anybody. I trust folk here to be sufficiently savvy and intelligent to look at issues on their merits. If a neutral observer takes a look at what I have to say, and think, "hmmmm, there's some sense", and digs around a little, is that brainwashing? I'm sorry, by casting an aspersion on my motivations, you have demonstrated arrogance and contempt, which merely reflects your character. I post because I care about the future of this nation for my children and family, simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    When you look back, you tell your grandchildren, "I was given the honour of serving Singapore and its people" not "Singapore was lucky to have me as its minister.... and I tell you be a minister too! So that you can be a millionaire like your grandparent!"
    Off topic. You put and project many unsavoury things on our leaders, how about a litle benefit of the doubt? Is the country not in fairly robust shape?

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    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by deckard View Post
    let people retire at their "good age" whatever that might be. let them take out their CPF money. It is their money anyway. out of 10,000 maybe one nut will spend with a "big bang" its their dream anyway. they are responsible for it. they cannot blame anybody because the MP can say" look Mr Nut, you have so much money, you spend everything on XXXX and now you blame us???!"

    most old folks are sensible enough, go on modest short trip, give some to children etc. why punish all by raising the retirement age to some high number so that the CPF money cannot be taken out?
    deckard, the proposal is for age 67. Average lifespan is 80 years! The vast majority will live to withdraw their CPF.

    Yes, CPF is your money, BUT with conditions, just like any other retirement pension, annuity, etc. It is meant for retirement use and there are conditions attached to when it can be withdrawn. If it is no longer serving that function of retirement savings well, then it needs to be tweaked to make it more effective. This is NOTHING NEW, it is in force all over the world, in one form or another. Please please read around a little and understand what its about, my offer on the book still stands.

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    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    Low taxes because : there is no welfare system $ for jobless and old ppl.

    We never ask for early retirement, just asking is it realistic to prolong retirement when you know ageism is a reality in singapore.

    Get back to this when i m more free.
    So you are not against later retirement then? If the g-ment introduce legislation to help people work longer, you happy with that? 'Coz lotsa posters in this thread seem very agitated by that point.

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw View Post
    So you are not against later retirement then? If the g-ment introduce legislation to help people work longer, you happy with that? 'Coz lotsa posters in this thread seem very agitated by that point.
    Just remain status quo. 62 its ok.

    65 wat is my govt thinking... ?

    67.. hey.. dun be stupid
    陳綺貞 2010 [夏季練習曲] 巡迴演唱會 Cheer Concert 13 Nov 2010 MAX Pavilion@Singapore Expo

  13. #93

    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw View Post
    If you can't get past this to look at other issues, then too bad, its really your loss and the loss for other SGreans. Yes it is high pay, perhaps exceedingly so, but that does not mean they do not know how to make policy. Do yourself a favour and lift this particular chip off your shoulder for a minute and look at the retirement age issue on its own merit, will you?

    On another point, I'm not interested in brain-washing anybody. I trust folk here to be sufficiently savvy and intelligent to look at issues on their merits. If a neutral observer takes a look at what I have to say, and think, "hmmmm, there's some sense", and digs around a little, is that brainwashing? I'm sorry, by casting an aspersion on my motivations, you have demonstrated arrogance and contempt, which merely reflects your character. I post because I care about the future of this nation for my children and family, simple.



    Off topic. You put and project many unsavoury things on our leaders, how about a litle benefit of the doubt? Is the country not in fairly robust shape?
    hey please dont go attack my character....nothing to do with the discussion.... you and the leaders your are supporting are the arrogant ones. Forget it, we will show you with our votes next election and let you know we are not stupid.
    Last edited by centuryegg; 20th August 2007 at 07:22 PM.

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    mmm...this may be a new industry to cater for the retired..

  15. #95

    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw View Post
    deckard, the proposal is for age 67. Average lifespan is 80 years! The vast majority will live to withdraw their CPF.

    Yes, CPF is your money, BUT with conditions, just like any other retirement pension, annuity, etc. It is meant for retirement use and there are conditions attached to when it can be withdrawn. If it is no longer serving that function of retirement savings well, then it needs to be tweaked to make it more effective. This is NOTHING NEW, it is in force all over the world, in one form or another. Please please read around a little and understand what its about, my offer on the book still stands.


    you funny guy. yes I understand vast majority will live to withdraw the CPF. but by the time they do that, they may be too old to enjoy the money.. if you know what I mean. some activities with money require physical capacity.

    some dreams require that the old guy can do physical stuff. For example. Like I said, lets say, there is this guy who have planned to have a round the world trip. he have worked out the budget. it requires quite a sum of money, need to take the CPF money and then some. yes after the big journey he will have very little money left. just enough to write a book, work in Mac til he bonks out. surely he can't do this now? by the time he can get enough money out now. he will be lucky to even able to walk by himself let alone travel the world. just an example.

    like I said, some people don't live with your normal confucious values system. their "retirement" is actually their second life. you understand? they need the money for their second life to do what they really want to do before they bonks out. and that second life requires quite a sum of money.

  16. #96

    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    Just remain status quo. 62 its ok.

    65 wat is my govt thinking... ?

    67.. hey.. dun be stupid
    yeah! so old how to enjoy the money?
    Last edited by deckard; 20th August 2007 at 07:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by deckard View Post


    you funny guy. yes I understand vast majority will live to withdraw the CPF. but by the time they do that, they may be too old to enjoy the money.. if you know what I mean. some activities with money require physical capacity.

    some dreams require that the old guy can do physical stuff. For example. Like I said, lets say, there is this guy who have planned to have a round the world trip. he have worked out the budget. it requires quite a sum of money, need to take the CPF money and then some. yes after the big journey he will have very little money left. just enough to write a book, work in Mac til he bonks out. surely he can't do this now? by the time he can get enough money out now. he will be lucky to even able to walk by himself let alone travel the world. just an example.

    like I said, some people don't live with your normal confucious values system. their "retirement" is actually their second life. you understand? they need the money for their second life to do what they really want to do before they bonks out. and that second life requires quite a sum of money.
    Nothing to do with confucius, just pragmatic retirement planning. If the first thing a retiree does with his retirement money is to take a run-the world trip, then none of the best laid retirement plans will work for anybody. You have contradicted yourself on many fronts. First you say that the number of people who will act irresponsibly with their money is "1:10,000". The you offer up in the above post, that the government should give up retirement funds so that the elderly can "enjoy themselves", live a "second life". What many people fail to accept is that they are living to a nice old age. Living a blistering "second life" that requires "quite a sum of money" will leave you a pauper when you are really old, and with no means to work. Get it? That is precisely why the CPF withdrawal is being raised, for exactly those reasons you cited, people who are just waiting to get their hands on the money to splurge. It is NOT splurging money, it is money to keep you in decent shape till you perish. If you want splurging money, make sure you earn it sufficiently before you retire.
    Last edited by dkw; 20th August 2007 at 08:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by Static View Post
    Just remain status quo. 62 its ok.

    65 wat is my govt thinking... ?

    67.. hey.. dun be stupid
    And if the average life span keeps getting longer? Keep the same? 70 year olds are doing triathlons these days, the paradigm has changed.

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    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    hey please dont go attack my character
    Well, the shoe is on the other foot now, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    you and the leaders your are supporting are the arrogant ones. Forget it, we will show you with our votes next election and let you know we are not stupid.
    The arrogance you demonstrate is ample. No one can whisper a word in support of the establishment without being an agent of the g-ment or having a secret agenda (brainwashing?). In other words, only your opinion is of independent origin, all else is mere parroting of the official line, and all who parrot it are incapable of independent thought and only bent on quashing all dissent. That is arrogance, my fren, subtle but unmistakable.

    Let me take you thru your posts. You start off by saying that rather than incresing taxes, the better way might be to not increase minister's pay. I presume it is in the context of social programs for the elderly, since that was what I had originally made the offer about tax increase for. When I went on to show how little impact that would make, you first questioned my numbers, and when that demonstrated that your suggestion was without significant merit, you then sidetracked to accuse me of brainwashing. That is the extent of your thesis.

    At the end of the day, I think the neutrals reading will have a fair sense of who has or has not been unreasonable in this exchange.

  20. #100

    Default Re: Singapore wants older workers to continue working

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw View Post
    Well, the shoe is on the other foot now, isn't it?



    The arrogance you demonstrate is ample. No one can whisper a word in support of the establishment without being an agent of the g-ment or having a secret agenda (brainwashing?). In other words, only your opinion is of independent origin, all else is mere parroting of the official line, and all who parrot it are incapable of independent thought and only bent on quashing all dissent. That is arrogance, my fren, subtle but unmistakable.

    Let me take you thru your posts. You start off by saying that rather than incresing taxes, the better way might be to not increase minister's pay. I presume it is in the context of social programs for the elderly, since that was what I had originally made the offer about tax increase for. When I went on to show how little impact that would make, you first questioned my numbers, and when that demonstrated that your suggestion was without significant merit, you then sidetracked to accuse me of brainwashing. That is the extent of your thesis.

    At the end of the day, I think the neutrals reading will have a fair sense of who has or has not been unreasonable in this exchange.
    Cuckoo cuckoo.... hello there how on earth does finding so strange a person fantatic till the point of imbecile blind obedience for the party has to do with arrogance?? Frankly we all find you are strange and I am not the first person to say so. I Anyway we dont have to agree with you neither do you have to agree with us. I would advise you to go back and report to your masters your findings that they might not garner the 66.6 percent they got this time round rather than trying to convince us with pathetic figures.... End of the day dont you just want to squash our dissent? Talk so much **** and bull and end oof the day, you just want to put everyone who doesnt agree with the party down... and start calling people arrogant, no morals etc etc.... yeah only yourself and your leaders are the most moral of all....
    Last edited by centuryegg; 21st August 2007 at 01:15 AM.

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