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Thread: defense for pple sued by odex?

  1. #61

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by garou12 View Post
    interesting...always thought porn was illegal here.
    It is illegal to own/possess or sell or promote it.

    It's a little difficult to charge someone for watching a movie that is being streamed from another country or looking at a photo that is stored in another country cause those images are not "physically" in your computer so technically you do not "possess" them.

    _

  2. #62
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken View Post
    Then as a photog, ur pursuing the person for distributed your image. Odex is going after those who downloaded it.

    Say a person, likely potential end consumer, downloaded your image because he heard you're good, or thinks your image is good, would you go all out to track him down and sue him?

    It can never be a direct co-relation, because Odex is not the creator, but a distributor. So you won't find the perfect analogy. What's directly applicable, is that in any case, whoever is tracking and suing the downloader, is pissing all the other potential end consumers off. Rightly or wrongly, it's not very wise business sense.

    If they have the guts, go track those torrent sites down. Not defenseless kids whose only weapons are moans and groans.
    I've read both CS threads and now understands better, firstly my photos not good and I would not go after anyone who's sole aim is to promote my photos, heck even if they take my photos I also don't care.

    But it does seem ODEX is doing just that, but my guess is they are not targeting at the defenseless kids but the parents? can they get to the parents what the kids download?

    ODEX must be DAMN! desperate.

    ../azul123
    Last edited by azul123; 19th August 2007 at 10:24 AM.

  3. #63

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    Getting the student to declare bankruptcy is enough to scare the rest into submission.
    It probably would. Which is why I don't understand the thinking behind Odex. Do they genuinely feel that if they successfully curb anime downloading in SG, their business will be better? If it's their genuine reason for this hoohah, then I'm amazed at how little they understand the anime market in SG.

    I've been an anime fan for more than a decade. Closer to two. Odex came into the scene the last decade or so. At first, fans like myself applaud their entry. But only for a short while. They could only bring in very dated titles (at that time), poor video and audio quality, poor packaging and at an unrealistic price. Even parallel imports can rival Odex's pricing, after all the cuts in between.

    After a decade, Odex had gained a reputation amongst fans like myself and the community of fans I'm in, for giving an anime a bad name. They have stepped up in bringing in newer anime. A lot. But the poor video and audio quality remains. The prices is still unrealistic.

    For anime, they are grossly underestimating the meaning of the word 'fan'. I used to run a very large anime site, and fans were willing to save up their meagre allowance to keep the community going. Now, the fan sub culture in anime in US is so strong, that the professionalism in the translation and technical expertise on sub-titling far exceed that of the 'professional' work engaged by the licensed distributors like Tokyopop. That alone, had helped US market to turn from a niche one to a mainstream one.

    Whatever. I wasn't a fan since Odex first opened as a shop, then became a distributor. Anime is still a very niche market in SG. And I believe Odex just dealt themselves with their own finishing blow.

  4. #64

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken View Post
    It probably would. Which is why I don't understand the thinking behind Odex. Do they genuinely feel that if they successfully curb anime downloading in SG, their business will be better? If it's their genuine reason for this hoohah, then I'm amazed at how little they understand the anime market in SG.

    I've been an anime fan for more than a decade. Closer to two. Odex came into the scene the last decade or so. At first, fans like myself applaud their entry. But only for a short while. They could only bring in very dated titles (at that time), poor video and audio quality, poor packaging and at an unrealistic price. Even parallel imports can rival Odex's pricing, after all the cuts in between.

    After a decade, Odex had gained a reputation amongst fans like myself and the community of fans I'm in, for giving an anime a bad name. They have stepped up in bringing in newer anime. A lot. But the poor video and audio quality remains. The prices is still unrealistic.

    For anime, they are grossly underestimating the meaning of the word 'fan'. I used to run a very large anime site, and fans were willing to save up their meagre allowance to keep the community going. Now, the fan sub culture in anime in US is so strong, that the professionalism in the translation and technical expertise on sub-titling far exceed that of the 'professional' work engaged by the licensed distributors like Tokyopop. That alone, had helped US market to turn from a niche one to a mainstream one.

    Whatever. I wasn't a fan since Odex first opened as a shop, then became a distributor. Anime is still a very niche market in SG. And I believe Odex just dealt themselves with their own finishing blow.
    FINISH THEM!!!

  5. #65

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by garou12 View Post
    sounds like you're just trying to make a case that peopel shouldn't do it with your work. Completely deferent context and markets and you're trying to put them under the same analogy
    Ha ha ha...

    See what I mean about excuses?

    It's a simple black and white issue; the law makes it illegal to download copyrighted works.

    It does not matter who chooses to fight the case, a distributor (who has more firepower) or an artist (who wouldn't be able to shoulder the cost - remember, we're already depriving him of money to eat, where to get money to sue?). And it does not matter what market the copyrighted works belong to, photography, movies, software, books, music, etc. The issues are still the same, a copyrighted work is being used/enjoyed without rightful compansation to its owner.

    We're just making excuses and trying to mix black and white to create grey so that we can continue to enjoy our gains.

    BTW, I'm just acting as the devil's advocate here. I may or may not agree with the laws, but they do exist and it is worth pointing out. Wahahaha!

  6. #66

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadpixel View Post
    Ha ha ha...

    BTW, I'm just acting as the devil's advocate here. I may or may not agree with the laws, but they do exist and it is worth pointing out. Wahahaha!
    Then learn more about the law and it's context before trying to play the devil's advocate.

    Much of the anime that's available for distribution online does not even fall under Odex's jurisdiction for distributorship. Odex do not own the rights to every single anime that's being distributed online.

    Distribution of anime is extremely different from movies. Fans who offer the anime for download are almost always those that have not been licensed for distributorship yet. By the time the licenses have been obtained, the distribution would have ceased. And that's talking about the US distribution when the licensing of anime is waaaaaaaaaaaay for current than the titles by Odex.

    So good luck to Odex trying to find people who still bother to download those ancient titles they're distributing.

  7. #67

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadpixel View Post
    Ha ha ha...

    See what I mean about excuses?

    It's a simple black and white issue; the law makes it illegal to download copyrighted works.

    It does not matter who chooses to fight the case, a distributor (who has more firepower) or an artist (who wouldn't be able to shoulder the cost - remember, we're already depriving him of money to eat, where to get money to sue?). And it does not matter what market the copyrighted works belong to, photography, movies, software, books, music, etc. The issues are still the same, a copyrighted work is being used/enjoyed without rightful compansation to its owner.

    We're just making excuses and trying to mix black and white to create grey so that we can continue to enjoy our gains.

    BTW, I'm just acting as the devil's advocate here. I may or may not agree with the laws, but they do exist and it is worth pointing out. Wahahaha!
    So by your reasoning then you shouldn't even be on the internet: Everything that is on here is downloaded into your computer, so you are downloading. And everything, And i mean EVERYTHING is copyrighted one way or another, heck i can even copyright my reply to you right now, its original material, and come after you for downloading my work onto your computer without permission. Just because its on a forum doesn't mean you can just dl it to your com and keep it in your cache. You're just trying to make sure you make a buck from your stock photos so why can't i do the same with my words? The stuff you're saying would only make sense in your warped mind, just like some ding dong saying that China is the world's biggest china town.

  8. #68

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123 View Post
    But it does seem ODEX is doing just that, but my guess is they are not targeting at the defenseless kids but the parents? can they get to the parents what the kids download?

    ODEX must be DAMN! desperate.

    ../azul123
    Yes they can, regardless of whether the account used to download the files are subscribed under their parents names, particularly if the kids (teenagers included) are still below a certain age. That is why it is so important to monitor what our kids are downloading these days.

    For those of us who are planning on standing in front of a judge to say, "I cannot be made liable because it is my kid who did it and I wasn't aware of what he was downloading," all I can say is, "Go ahead and try." Wahahahaha!

    _

  9. #69
    Senior Member azul123's Avatar
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    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadpixel View Post
    Yes they can, regardless of whether the account used to download the files are subscribed under their parents names, particularly if the kids (teenagers included) are still below a certain age. That is why it is so important to monitor what our kids are downloading these days.

    For those of us who are planning on standing in front of a judge to say, "I cannot be made liable because it is my kid who did it and I wasn't aware of what he was downloading," all I can say is, "Go ahead and try." Wahahahaha!

    _
    Yup, that's what I thought, it is the parents they are really targeting. Well, this is one way to stay afloat... I guess.

    ../azul123

  10. #70

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by garou12 View Post
    So by your reasoning then you shouldn't even be on the internet: Everything that is on here is downloaded into your computer, so you are downloading. And everything, And i mean EVERYTHING is copyrighted one way or another, heck i can even copyright my reply to you right now, its original material, and come after you for downloading my work onto your computer without permission. Just because its on a forum doesn't mean you can just dl it to your com and keep it in your cache. You're just trying to make sure you make a buck from your stock photos so why can't i do the same with my words? The stuff you're saying would only make sense in your warped mind, just like some ding dong saying that China is the world's biggest china town.
    Another excuse but a really bad one...

    The law considers the action of downloading as to be one where an individual or group deliberately chooses to save a file on their computer's storage medias. Files that are streamed into your computer's temporary cache (and which would be subsequently automatically removed by the application or OS), are not considered. If you so choose to go into the cache to save that file into a different location, such that it would no longer be removed automatically, then you have copied a copyrighted work.

    Words shared in a public forum cannot be copyrighted. Also, people who post their works online may, if they choose, allow others to download their works for non profit reasons. Please do try to understand the copyright laws before trying to use them in a discussion.

    As for having a warped mind, I'm not the one making excuses or going overboard in my examples. I'm merely stating the law. BTW, what has China being the biggest chinatown got to do with illegally downloading copyrighted material? Maybe it's my warped mind but I don't see the connection.

    _
    Last edited by deadpixel; 19th August 2007 at 10:58 AM.

  11. #71

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Look who's talking? Your forced application of the superficial understanding of the law is out of context and are really bad ones.

    Here, even if for taking the law at face value, here's one which might empower you to be a better devils' advocate:

    http://digital.asiaone.com/Digital/N...816-22133.html

    Quote Originally Posted by deadpixel View Post
    Another excuse but a really bad one...

    ...

    Please do try to understand the copyright laws before trying to use them in a discussion.
    _

  12. #72

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken View Post
    Then learn more about the law and it's context before trying to play the devil's advocate.

    Much of the anime that's available for distribution online does not even fall under Odex's jurisdiction for distributorship. Odex do not own the rights to every single anime that's being distributed online.

    Distribution of anime is extremely different from movies. Fans who offer the anime for download are almost always those that have not been licensed for distributorship yet. By the time the licenses have been obtained, the distribution would have ceased. And that's talking about the US distribution when the licensing of anime is waaaaaaaaaaaay for current than the titles by Odex.

    So good luck to Odex trying to find people who still bother to download those ancient titles they're distributing.

    Well, as to my needing to read up on the copyright law, did you by any chance read about who ODEX are going after and effort that they made to cross check the anime files that are downloaded so that they go after the right people?

    It seemed very convinent for us to know that ODEX does not represent ALL anime makes but it doesn't seem important to notice the report about them checking that they get the right people with the right files.

    _

  13. #73

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Your side-stepping on my counter-arguments about your forced applications of the law are convenient as well. Whatever. Have a nice remainder of the sunday.

    Quote Originally Posted by deadpixel View Post
    Well, as to my needing to read up on the copyright law, did you by any chance read about who ODEX are going after and effort that they made to cross check the anime files that are downloaded so that they go after the right people?

    It seemed very convinent for us to know that ODEX does not represent ALL anime makes but it doesn't seem important to notice the report about them checking that they get the right people with the right files.

    _

  14. #74

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken View Post
    Look who's talking? Your forced application of the superficial understanding of the law is out of context and are really bad ones.

    Here, even if for taking the law at face value, here's one which might empower you to be a better devils' advocate:

    http://digital.asiaone.com/Digital/N...816-22133.html
    Thank you for the link, here's a quote from it:

    The fifth and final consideration is the effect of copying upon the work's potential market here. That is, the anime firm must show that future harm is very likely, not that actual harm has occurred. Local fans say they do go online to buy anime DVDs from foreign distributors. US experience suggests that this is not all empty talk.
    Like you said, forced application, just like what ODEX is doing in interpretting the underlined portions, despite the fact that it is proven that the downloaders (diehard fans) would still buy the original DVDs when they come onto the market.

    And you misunderstand me. I am not arguing for ODEX, I did say that I don't necessarily agree with their actions (in a previous post), I am pointing out that these laws do exist and no amount of wrangling on our part is going to make them disappear. If we are prepared to "use" the law (especially gray ones) to our advantage, we need to be prepared that others will want to do the same, to their advantage.

    _

  15. #75

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken View Post
    Your side-stepping on my counter-arguments about your forced applications of the law are convenient as well. Whatever. Have a nice remainder of the sunday.
    Side-stepped? Nah, I'm just interpreting the law in an unimaginative way, just like in the way described by the Asiaone report.

    But it doesn't cover the fact that we are all jumping down ODEX's throat without fully knowing who they are going after and what titles they are going after these people for. What if the downloaders are still downloading titles that are already available here? Diehard supportive fans aside, the bittorrent world is huge and almost anything can be downloaded from it so long as a request for a seed is answered.

    Thank you, I'm planning to have an arcade marathon with my kid so the Sunday's looking to be quite fun, except that my wife's going to nag me about playing too many games with him.

    Cheers
    _

    _

  16. #76

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadpixel View Post
    For those of us who are planning on standing in front of a judge to say, "I cannot be made liable because it is my kid who did it and I wasn't aware of what he was downloading," all I can say is, "Go ahead and try." Wahahahaha! _
    Think you should look up how vicarious liability applies in law before you go further.

  17. #77

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken View Post
    Then learn more about the law and it's context before trying to play the devil's advocate.

    Much of the anime that's available for distribution online does not even fall under Odex's jurisdiction for distributorship. Odex do not own the rights to every single anime that's being distributed online.

    Distribution of anime is extremely different from movies. Fans who offer the anime for download are almost always those that have not been licensed for distributorship yet. By the time the licenses have been obtained, the distribution would have ceased. And that's talking about the US distribution when the licensing of anime is waaaaaaaaaaaay for current than the titles by Odex.

    So good luck to Odex trying to find people who still bother to download those ancient titles they're distributing.

    That was my point I was trying to bring up all along.

    If Odex sues person A or sends them letter cos they have hard proof that person A has downloaded anime that is under their distribution then fine no arguement.

    However in this instance... is Odex merely singling out individuals who show high downloads from anime sites and regardless of what they are downloading, using that to scare them into submission. Afterall there is no warning as per normal just a invite to office to demand "compensation" Frankly it sounds more like something loan sharks or gangsters would do.

    To put it in a photographic example. You are boss of a photography pool, your biz is suffering as your photos are printed on lousy quality paper. Then you come up with this bright idea, you go threaten everyone in CS who has downloaded photos saying that it is loss of biz for you. These people dont know their rights and hence decided to pay up.... you laugh all the way to the bank.

  18. #78
    vince123123
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    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Please note that before relying so heavily on the Asiaone report, that his report may not be entirely accurate - there are some mistakes in his interpretation. Do verify against the actual legislation itself.

  19. #79
    vince123123
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    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    This is just one of many many obstacles that Odex has to overcome in order to prove a civil case, that is, that it is either the owner or exclusive licensee of the works, as only these two parties can take out a civil action.

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    That was my point I was trying to bring up all along.

    If Odex sues person A or sends them letter cos they have hard proof that person A has downloaded anime that is under their distribution then fine no arguement.

    However in this instance... is Odex merely singling out individuals who show high downloads from anime sites and regardless of what they are downloading, using that to scare them into submission. Afterall there is no warning as per normal just a invite to office to demand "compensation" Frankly it sounds more like something loan sharks or gangsters would do.

    To put it in a photographic example. You are boss of a photography pool, your biz is suffering as your photos are printed on lousy quality paper. Then you come up with this bright idea, you go threaten everyone in CS who has downloaded photos saying that it is loss of biz for you. These people dont know their rights and hence decided to pay up.... you laugh all the way to the bank.

  20. #80

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadpixel View Post
    Yes they can, regardless of whether the account used to download the files are subscribed under their parents names, particularly if the kids (teenagers included) are still below a certain age. That is why it is so important to monitor what our kids are downloading these days.

    For those of us who are planning on standing in front of a judge to say, "I cannot be made liable because it is my kid who did it and I wasn't aware of what he was downloading," all I can say is, "Go ahead and try." Wahahahaha!

    _
    You obviously haven't read any of the RIAA cases have you?

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