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Thread: defense for pple sued by odex?

  1. #41

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Getting the student to declare bankruptcy is enough to scare the rest into submission.

    But who in his right mind wants to declare bankruptcy? Esp. for a small amount like a few thousand $$, esp. for an anime case like this? With all the restrictions on travel, loss of ability to obtain credit facilities, unable to stand for election, etc. The parents will bail them out for sure.

    Look-- how Odex plays its hand is up to them. I know nothing about anime, I don't even know if this is a criminal or civil case. What I'm saying is, you think you can get away scot free by merely ignoring Odex, I think that's playing a dangerous game. They could be so desperate, you never know how far they'll pursue this.

    It doesn't matter how much the damages are. Even a $1 judgment is enough. You lose enough by just having to pay your own counsel, not to mention the plaintiff's.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    For the Virtual Map case, they tried the same trick of kill 1 scare 1000. The only thing int hat case was that they never proceeded to assess damages, and the talk was because they would have trouble proving any significant damages.

    Imagine they win and the judge say, okay, your map is worth $100.

    Odex would have its work cut out for it in this case also to prove damgaes.

    And if all they sue is a poor student, the student declares bankrupt and Odex is stuck with a paper judgment and all its R&T bills to pay.

  2. #42

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    Getting the student to declare bankruptcy is enough to scare the rest into submission.

    But who in his right mind wants to declare bankruptcy? Esp. for a small amount like a few thousand $$, esp. for an anime case like this? With all the restrictions on travel, loss of ability to obtain credit facilities, unable to stand for election, etc. The parents will bail them out for sure.

    Look-- how Odex plays its hand is up to them. I know nothing about anime, I don't even know if this is a criminal or civil case. What I'm saying is, you think you can get away scot free by merely ignoring Odex, I think that's playing a dangerous game. They could be so desperate, you never know how far they'll pursue this.

    It doesn't matter how much the damages are. Even a $1 judgment is enough. You lose enough by just having to pay your own counsel, not to mention the plaintiff's.
    so you're suggesting that people just roll over and let themselves get bullied?

  3. #43
    Senior Member zac08's Avatar
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    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by garou12 View Post
    nope DC gave it out besides i'm not selling the image for profit.
    But the anime downloaders also DUN sell it for profit too... they are just watching it...
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  4. #44
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    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    It may not be relevant but you can't make a person a bankrupt if the debt is below $10,000.

  5. #45

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    when someone takes your picture, put it on his/her website and claims ownership/makes alterations to your picture and make it his/hers, that's infringing the rights to your work

    for anime market, fans do not take the work and make the work theirs. they don't make alterations except adding subtitles to promote the work overseas. the credit of the work still goes to the original creator(s).

    if someone takes your picture, promote it overseas and make you famous, will you be happy?

    i'm not an anime fan myself, but the distinction can be seen quite easily.
    Hmmm promotion eh? ....Well, let's try another example where no alterations are made and no money is gained by the downloaders of photographic works:

    You are a small time photographer and you shoot and then sell your works (clip art, stock photos, glamour shots, etc.) via CDs/DVDs/Downloads.

    Your works are quite well received and some one gets a hold of your works and shares it all out via P2P. People start downloading it for free. Students print it for file/book covers and posters for their rooms or use them as screen savers; adults print them as art prints for decorating they own homes - posters, framed pictures, table mats, etc, etc... or just use them as screen savers, just like their kids.

    They love your original works, they don't want to alter it, they want to see it and use it again and again .... for free and without profit/gain and they never once fail to credit you and your skills. Their friends want to buy your works but wait...there's no need to buy, they've already downloaded a copy and can just give a copy of it to their friends and their friends' friends and so on....they've even got color all-in-ones at home and can scan, or download, and print the free disk cover and labels containing all your details...

    But it's free publicity, sooner or later one of the big art houses or magazines or papers or whoever is going to notice your works and pay you big bucks or hire you; so, in the meantime, you just hold on to your partime taxi driver's job and let the free publicity continue.

    I think this scenario is a closer apple-to-apple comparison with the animie artists' situation than the scenario of a photographer getting his works altered so that someone else can gain from it.

    BTW, I'm not rooting for ODEX, I don't like the way they are handling the situation.

    __

  6. #46
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    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadpixel View Post
    Hmmm promotion eh? ....Well, let's try another example where no alterations are made and no money is gained by the downloaders of photographic works:

    You are a small time photographer and you shoot and then sell your works (clip art, stock photos, glamour shots, etc.) via CDs/DVDs/Downloads.

    Your works are quite well received and some one gets a hold of your works and shares it all out via P2P. People start downloading it for free. Students print it for file/book covers and posters for their rooms or use them as screen savers; adults print them as art prints for decorating they own homes - posters, framed pictures, table mats, etc, etc... or just use them as screen savers, just like their kids.

    They love your original works, they don't want to alter it, they want to see it and use it again and again .... for free and without profit/gain and they never once fail to credit you and your skills. Their friends want to buy your works but wait...there's no need to buy, they've already downloaded a copy and can just give a copy of it to their friends and their friends' friends and so on....they've even got color all-in-ones at home and can scan, or download, and print the free disk cover and labels containing all your details...

    But it's free publicity, sooner or later one of the big art houses or magazines or papers or whoever is going to notice your works and pay you big bucks or hire you; so, in the meantime, you just hold on to your partime taxi driver's job and let the free publicity continue.

    I think this scenario is a closer apple-to-apple comparison with the animie artists' situation than the scenario of a photographer getting his works altered so that someone else can gain from it.

    BTW, I'm not rooting for ODEX, I don't like the way they are handling the situation.

    __
    i think this is quite unrealistic, the scenario you've written is quite absurd. the two markets are totally different, there's no room for comparison in the first place, and i want to point out that difference

    the closest you can get is that some individuals see your online work very nice, print it out and use it to decorate their house, what can you do about it? go and hunt every single household? not like they print it out and sell. when every household has your picture inside them, no art house is going to be interested in your picture like i said, there's no value in copying for photography. but things are different for the anime market. fan base support for anime will be like that special individual who's going to bring your photograph to the art houses and convince them that it's a masterpiece.
    Last edited by eikin; 19th August 2007 at 02:36 AM.

  7. #47

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    i think this is quite unrealistic, the two markets are totally different, there's no room for comparison in the first place, and i want to point out that difference

    some individuals see your online work very nice, print it out and use it to decorate their house, what can you do about it? go and hunt every single household? not like they print it out and sell.
    Hee! Their markets may be different but they share one common problem ... lost income for the creator of the work. And as to the downloaders not gaining anything? Not quite accurate. They gain satisfaction by being entertained.

    As to hunting every household that did some downloading, that's exactly what ODEX is doing

    And BTW, some dipsh!ts did print out somethings of mine and were selling it. I don't shoot for a living but do occasionally sell hi-res shots/posters to individuals and companies, not much but they pay for new equipment , so I do know a little of what it "feels".

    _

  8. #48
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    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadpixel View Post
    Hee! Their markets may be different but they share one common problem ... lost income for the creator of the work. And as to the downloaders not gaining anything? Not quite accurate. They gain satisfaction by being entertained.

    As to hunting every household that did some downloading, that's exactly what ODEX is doing

    And BTW, some dipsh!ts did print out somethings of mine and were selling it. I don't shoot for a living but do occasionally sell hi-res shots/posters to individuals and companies, not much but they pay for new equipment , so I do know a little of what it "feels".

    _
    you're wrong, anime creators don't earn much, except for big production houses, most sell off the works to tv stations and depend heavily on fan base to drum up popularity so that they may get noticed in japan. most of them don't make it overseas without fan support.

    for your case, that's like having illegal distributing of the works for profit, there's a distinction. anyway this is the first of it's kind in singapore, it's going to leave long effects. i think the anime culture will just die off in singapore, while some fanatics will secretly import while they go overseas, the rest will just give up

  9. #49
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    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    speaking of which, i wonder if the real copyright owners are aware of what Odex is doing anyway, and whether they get compensated as well when Odex brings in the moola

  10. #50

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    you're wrong, anime creators don't earn much, except for big production houses, most sell off the works to tv stations and depend heavily on fan base to drum up popularity so that they may get noticed in japan. most of them don't make it overseas without fan support.
    I see. I guess for them it's really a hold and pray kind of situation. Hold on to regular day jobs and pray for a big break. I'm more familiar with those that come from the production houses.

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    speaking of which, i wonder if the real copyright owners are aware of what Odex is doing anyway, and whether they get compensated as well when Odex brings in the moola
    The individual artists many not be aware but it's highly likely that the distributors that represent them would be aware and are probably in full support of ODEX's actions. For them, the main issue would be to recover as much money as possible for their pockets; perhaps a few may also be thinking about the money that the artists they represent may be getting back. For these companies, not many (if any at all) would be thinking of the ramifications of ODEX's actions; that of alienating the artists' fan base.

    _

  11. #51
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    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadpixel View Post
    The individual artists many not be aware but it's highly likely that the distributors that represent them would be aware and are probably in full support of ODEX's actions. For them, the main issue would be to recover as much money as possible for their pockets; perhaps a few may also be thinking about the money that the artists they represent may be getting back. For these companies, not many (if any at all) would be thinking of the ramifications of ODEX's actions; that of alienating the artists' fan base.

    _
    Odex is supposed to be the sole distributor for many titles in Singapore and SEA. Singapore is actually a pretty small market, not much to lose here i would say. i am inclined to think that the artists don't know about this and will not get a single cent out of this, as for the bigger production houses, i still have my doubts as to whether they have been informed. Odex is afterall just a distributor, are they suing for copyright infringement or distribution related damages? if it's the former, those copyright owners represented by Odex or AVPAS (both are so mixed up) ought to be in the picture, if it's for the latter, Odex should be going after illegal uploaders, not downloaders.
    Last edited by eikin; 19th August 2007 at 03:22 AM.

  12. #52

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    It's all a little ridiculous. Even MDA allows for porn downloads as long as you don't distribute.

  13. #53

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    odex is biting the hand that feeds it.

    Anime was originally shown on TV (which I last checked was free to air and free to record). The fansubs add value to the original anime by giving it a wider audience who may then buy products related to the anime.

    The anime community has always been fan-driven, otherwise, how would a 9-year old know about Naruto and Bleach when they aren't even being screened in Singapore at all.

    As far as I can tell, odex DVDs offer no extra value other than the anime itself and there is no guarantee that it is uncensored and the VCDs aren't even worth talking about given the quality of the moving pictures on them. I would much rather get the region 1 DVDs which offer more value and are almost guaranteed to be uncensored

    odex may survive a little longer because of the lawsuit but they will die a slow lingering death. unless, of course singaporeans are so hard up that they can't wait to get reamed up the arse by buying their products after this fiasco
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  14. #54
    Senior Member zac08's Avatar
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    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    Odex is supposed to be the sole distributor for many titles in Singapore and SEA. Singapore is actually a pretty small market, not much to lose here i would say. i am inclined to think that the artists don't know about this and will not get a single cent out of this, as for the bigger production houses, i still have my doubts as to whether they have been informed. Odex is afterall just a distributor, are they suing for copyright infringement or distribution related damages? if it's the former, those copyright owners represented by Odex or AVPAS (both are so mixed up) ought to be in the picture, if it's for the latter, Odex should be going after illegal uploaders, not downloaders.
    Didn't Odex start the AVPAS??? Kinda read that in a Wiki article...
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  15. #55

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by azul123 View Post
    Let me try to understand it a little more, if someone takes my image without my permission and promote it and make me famous... hmmm, I think I will be happy, but it still does not absolve that person who took my photo without permission, right?

    ../azul123
    Then as a photog, ur pursuing the person for distributed your image. Odex is going after those who downloaded it.

    Say a person, likely potential end consumer, downloaded your image because he heard you're good, or thinks your image is good, would you go all out to track him down and sue him?

    It can never be a direct co-relation, because Odex is not the creator, but a distributor. So you won't find the perfect analogy. What's directly applicable, is that in any case, whoever is tracking and suing the downloader, is pissing all the other potential end consumers off. Rightly or wrongly, it's not very wise business sense.

    If they have the guts, go track those torrent sites down. Not defenseless kids whose only weapons are moans and groans.

  16. #56

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by shojibake View Post
    It's all a little ridiculous. Even MDA allows for porn downloads as long as you don't distribute.
    Oooooo.... Let's not let the discussion head in that direction, however, AFAIK or can recall, the ruling or law is that you can view it on your screen but not save it; this of course ignores the fact that your OS/browser is likely to save a temporary copy on your hard disk. This issue was raised and answered in the newspapers quite some time back.

    _

  17. #57

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadpixel View Post
    Oooooo.... Let's not let the discussion head in that direction, however, AFAIK or can recall, the ruling or law is that you can view it on your screen but not save it; this of course ignores the fact that your OS/browser is likely to save a temporary copy on your hard disk. This issue was raised and answered in the newspapers quite some time back.

    _
    interesting...always thought porn was illegal here.

  18. #58

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken View Post
    Then as a photog, ur pursuing the person for distributed your image. Odex is going after those who downloaded it.

    Say a person, likely potential end consumer, downloaded your image because he heard you're good, or thinks your image is good, would you go all out to track him down and sue him?

    It can never be a direct co-relation, because Odex is not the creator, but a distributor. So you won't find the perfect analogy. What's directly applicable, is that in any case, whoever is tracking and suing the downloader, is pissing all the other potential end consumers off. Rightly or wrongly, it's not very wise business sense.

    If they have the guts, go track those torrent sites down. Not defenseless kids whose only weapons are moans and groans.
    What if my works are hosted on a stock photo site and people are downloading then sharing the images via P2P without paying more for them and the stock photo site (who's acting as a distributor) chooses to track down the downloaders to sue them?

    It may not be wise business sense but then what happens to the poor guy who does not get his rightful pay? Yes, he is getting well known but while the downloaders are watching his works and praising him and enjoying the best junk food that can accompany a good show, the guy may be eating plain rice.

    One thing is certain, if we don't want to pay for something, we can make a thousand excuses not to do so.

    _

  19. #59
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    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Look at the other perspective, if the student declares bankruptcy, that would mean that Odex would be stuck paying at least 100k+ in legal fees to its own lawyers and getting S$0 in return.

    Now, next student comes along, if you are Odex, would you take on another 100k+ suit which may or may not turn into profits? The scare tactic may or may not work. Just as what the defendants are playing a dangerous game, so is Odex. The students may also be so desperate you have no idea how they are pursuing this.

    Alll I'm saying is, you need to look at both sides.

    As for damages, if it doesn't make a difference and S$1 is good enough, then why doesn't Virtual map proceed to assessment? It would be a damn good scare tactic for sure.

    Damages always matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    Getting the student to declare bankruptcy is enough to scare the rest into submission.

    But who in his right mind wants to declare bankruptcy? Esp. for a small amount like a few thousand $$, esp. for an anime case like this? With all the restrictions on travel, loss of ability to obtain credit facilities, unable to stand for election, etc. The parents will bail them out for sure.

    Look-- how Odex plays its hand is up to them. I know nothing about anime, I don't even know if this is a criminal or civil case. What I'm saying is, you think you can get away scot free by merely ignoring Odex, I think that's playing a dangerous game. They could be so desperate, you never know how far they'll pursue this.

    It doesn't matter how much the damages are. Even a $1 judgment is enough. You lose enough by just having to pay your own counsel, not to mention the plaintiff's.

  20. #60

    Default Re: defense for pple sued by odex?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadpixel View Post
    What if my works are hosted on a stock photo site and people are downloading then sharing the images via P2P without paying more for them and the stock photo site (who's acting as a distributor) chooses to track down the downloaders to sue them?

    It may not be wise business sense but then what happens to the poor guy who does not get his rightful pay? Yes, he is getting well known but while the downloaders are watching his works and praising him and enjoying the best junk food that can accompany a good show, the guy may be eating plain rice.

    One thing is certain, if we don't want to pay for something, we can make a thousand excuses not to do so.

    _
    sounds like you're just trying to make a case that peopel shouldn't do it with your work. Completely deferent context and markets and you're trying to put them under the same analogy

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