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Thread: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    I was just suggesting that the TS think hard again. I did not even said that film is no good.

    Why are the film shooters so agitated and aggressive?.

    I do not intend to start a debate, but I could, if I want, counter many of the points raised in those 'shooting' my post.
    One of points raised sadden me as it shows the lack of his/her knowledge of the digital world.

    But at las, Isisaxon, an ex-film shooter, gave a balanced opinion.

    What is the fuss about. Just like a selecting, in a loose analogy, between tube and solid state amplifier. Alert the potential buyer with the real pro and cons, not psuedo justification!!

  2. #42

    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    Yes, the instant feedback that digital affords is great for learning.

    Bottomline: Go digital for learning, unless you really can't afford it.

    There are tons of arguments are how film forces you to think / be more careful, etc. That really boils down to the temperament of the photographer - a careful photographer is careful, film SLR or Digital SLR.

    With regards to going 'Manual' as part and parcel of becoming a true/real (or other hogwash) photographer - I think we need to be careful on what 'Manual' really means.

    If 'Manual' means using M-mode on the camera, the photographer is still at the mercy of the camera's metering system.

    A trained monkey can be taught to move the simulated match-needle to the centre by manipulating some dials.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by swhyge View Post
    I was just suggesting that the TS think hard again. I did not even said that film is no good.

    Why are the film shooters so agitated and aggressive?.

    I do not intend to start a debate, but I could, if I want, counter many of the points raised in those 'shooting' my post.
    One of points raised sadden me as it shows the lack of his/her knowledge of the digital world.

    But at las, Isisaxon, an ex-film shooter, gave a balanced opinion.

    What is the fuss about. Just like a selecting, in a loose analogy, between tube and solid state amplifier. Alert the potential buyer with the real pro and cons, not psuedo justification!!

    no lah..where got agitated? just thought you gave a very lopsided view

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    i m using f801s nikon n i like to share with u my thots and wat i encounter from my friends

    buy film when u
    -like things to be nostalgic
    -are willing to do few shots with exposure compensation on a subject,
    -are willing to wait to see the final develope shots
    -are willing to cramp in lots of time to understand the camera ( nothing kills more than fumbling at your slr when u r in a scenic spot, n then go reach home to reliase that the photo is not sharp enuf) so u jolly well master that cam.
    -


    buy digital when u
    -like things in the 21 century
    -need the convience of a digital cam , eg snap immediate - review immediate n snap again to take the ultimate photo that u like
    -likes to be in the centre of attention surrounded by people who likes to have the latest in things
    -r willing to spend some addtional money and time like photo software to tweak the photo further.
    -take your own sweet time to use the camera

    i m in a situation where all my friends use DSLR (its does help since all of them are rich) and as u may have guess when i use film its like such an old thing to them.
    i also fumble in 1 situation cause i did not master my cam to be ready for a great scene i came across. dam dui till today
    and in the beginning, my photography pattern is in P mode , now , its 50-50 on P n M mode. i hope with time to come i can use M mode for all my shots,

    both modes of photography offers great learning curve, so u just need to find the path that u like best and if money is an issue then a second hand cam will be a great choice , else u can always opt for instalment (but i dun recommend). both types of camera can take good picture , the only problem is how the person who took that shots. i have seen some with only pns can takes shots that never fails to awe me.

    i think its great u ask , so this way u can make an informed choice and 1 that u r willing to stand by it.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by swhyge View Post
    I was just suggesting that the TS think hard again. I did not even said that film is no good.

    Why are the film shooters so agitated and aggressive?.

    I do not intend to start a debate, but I could, if I want, counter many of the points raised in those 'shooting' my post.
    One of points raised sadden me as it shows the lack of his/her knowledge of the digital world.

    But at las, Isisaxon, an ex-film shooter, gave a balanced opinion.

    What is the fuss about. Just like a selecting, in a loose analogy, between tube and solid state amplifier. Alert the potential buyer with the real pro and cons, not psuedo justification!!
    And I suppose your view was very balanced as well?

    The title of the message is, "Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!". So my advise was and has to be skewed towards that direction. Isn't it quite irritating to decide on the path to film and all the response you get is GO DIGITAL? Does the person get any real help then? Also, notice how I did not advise old manual SLRs which I personally prefer to AF SLRs as I feel that it is more relavent to the person?

    Of course, the point of this thread is not to shoot down a fellow CSer. But as you state your point, let me do so as well.

    Regards,
    Samuel

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    TS taking the PHO215 module? the intro to black and white photog?

    if i'm not wrong you might be able to borrow/rent a FM nikon from sch? i heard of something like this from friends before. supposedly a very fun module the module uses the darkroom at ADM?
    chezburgr i can haz?

  7. #47

    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by nuxnewbie View Post
    Yes, the instant feedback that digital affords is great for learning.

    Bottomline: Go digital for learning, unless you really can't afford it.

    There are tons of arguments are how film forces you to think / be more careful, etc. That really boils down to the temperament of the photographer - a careful photographer is careful, film SLR or Digital SLR.

    With regards to going 'Manual' as part and parcel of becoming a true/real (or other hogwash) photographer - I think we need to be careful on what 'Manual' really means.

    If 'Manual' means using M-mode on the camera, the photographer is still at the mercy of the camera's metering system.

    A trained monkey can be taught to move the simulated match-needle to the centre by manipulating some dials.
    Instant review is sure a fast way to learn but be aware not to fall into the trial and error category. The key point is to understand what you are shooting and understand the effects of the changes you make to the setting.

    In my opinion, using a DSLR will speed up this process because for film, one will need to be diligent enough to take notes, then review the images when the photos are processed. Film processing may take up to a day and they cost money.

    One also need to plan carefully what to shoot to learn, say, about aperture or shutter speed. You don't bracket your shots like f/5.6, f/8, f/11 and then ending not knowing the differences. Go something drastic, like f/2.8, f/5.6, f/11, then the effects can be clearly seen with minimum number of shots. These effectively will give drastic shutter speed also, if the metering was 1/125s @ f/5.6, then you'll get 1/500s, 1/125s and 1/30 respectively for the above apertures. Having a notepad is very important to take down the settings.

    In the beginning stage, be prepared that the first few rolls of film will only give you a few satisfactory images. But that's learning. Some people need to spend the money and feel the pinch before they learn.

    Going the DSLR way may be a heavier initial investment because the bodies are more expensive. But now, let's say decent ones will cost about $500-$1000 more than their film counterparts, that's about 30-60 rolls of film plus processing or 1000-2000 shots. As a beginner, it's not difficult to hit that because experimentation is part of learning.

    For digital, you'll only need to print the images you want, so the shots used for learning are essentially free because you can just use a computer to view the images. It's just a faster way of learning if you learn the right way and not just trial and error just because it's free.

    As for image manipulation etc, for film, if you leave it to the lab to colour correct during printing, then there is no reason why you cannot do the same for digital but many people would want to do it themselves and send for printing with no correction. Then you'll need to spend more money to get a monitor calibrator and image manipulation software.

    Similarly, with film, you'll need to spend money to set up a darkroom, buy enlargers and processing equipment if you want to do it yourself. Believe me, a monitor calibrator and editing software is cheaper if you already have a PC/Mac (otherwise how did you post in CS? Right?) Instead of spending nearly an hour in the darkroom just to get the skin tone right with the test prints you make, you would now get instant preview on the computer.

    Digital has revolutionized photography. There is nothing wrong with film just that the running cost and opportunity cost are higher even though the initial investment is cheaper.

    Not trying to sway anyone one way or the other, I started with film, I won't know if it's good or bad to start learning with digital because sometimes the foundationn is not strong if one goes too fast.

    The difference between P mode and manually adjusting a dial to match the needles or LED can be quite different for a beginner. At least the latter shows that the amount of light has to be measured and you are the one choosing the aperture and shutter speed, you are in control. If one started with P mode and get correct exposures, then he/she will not understand what metering is all about. No?
    Last edited by lsisaxon; 15th August 2007 at 05:19 PM.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by nuxnewbie View Post
    A trained monkey can be taught to move the simulated match-needle to the centre by manipulating some dials.
    i think i should add here...also need to teach the already-trained monkey not to believe the needle all the time, since the meter can be fooled under certain lighting conditions. the same will apply to dslr also..

  9. #49

    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by lsisaxon View Post
    Sometimes, some waiting is good for learners to reflect upon what they shoot but of course they must be diligent enough to take notes... Digital is easier because EXIF information is there.

    I'll have to agree that digital allows faster learning even though I come from a film background. I'm almost fully digital now.
    yeah, I came from film too.. it took me so many years to get from A to C whilst when i went digital, I went from D to Z in a short time. Then i went back to shooting film for leisure. It becomes a whole new experience when you know what you're doing rather than clicking and praying your lightmeter doesnt get fooled.
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  10. #50
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    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    Why don't you find out what cameras does the members in NTU photography club uses, make some friends, and borrow their cameras to try? From there, perhaps you can decide which systems you prefer, and perhaps continue with that brand?

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by swhyge View Post
    I was just suggesting that the TS think hard again. I did not even said that film is no good.

    Why are the film shooters so agitated and aggressive?.

    I do not intend to start a debate, but I could, if I want, counter many of the points raised in those 'shooting' my post.
    One of points raised sadden me as it shows the lack of his/her knowledge of the digital world.

    But at las, Isisaxon, an ex-film shooter, gave a balanced opinion.

    What is the fuss about. Just like a selecting, in a loose analogy, between tube and solid state amplifier. Alert the potential buyer with the real pro and cons, not psuedo justification!!
    Haha,relax,man.Yes,I strongly agree with you that both pros and cons should be suggested
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    135L since APR 5, 2008

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by psychobiologist View Post
    TS taking the PHO215 module? the intro to black and white photog?

    if i'm not wrong you might be able to borrow/rent a FM nikon from sch? i heard of something like this from friends before. supposedly a very fun module the module uses the darkroom at ADM?
    No,not PHO215,although I have tried to get it for the past two semesters,but I just fail to get it each sem, because it is such a hot module,you know,too many ppl compete for it each sem.
    The module I am taking is EE8090,modern photography:technology and art.It is quite about the basics,but it do cover film and film photography.
    No,I don't think the darkroom is the ADM one,I just joined the club(PVS),haven't got a chance to try the facilities yet.
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  13. #53

    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    well..we are not discouraging you from going digital. why would we right?

    since you asked about film slr, and since you mentioned your budget, i dont think getting a film slr and shooting film will damage your wallet that badly. its not like you going to shoot rolls and rolls of film every week or so. anyway..whatever your decision, its still photography. so just shoot, learn and enjoy.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    thank you to your kind and detailed suggestions,alternatve,nuxnewbie,madmacs,Chiang,ls isaxon,cibs.I am paying a visit to the shops this weekend and see how it goes.Many thanks to all of your kind responses!
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    refering to the thread title, TS was asking for pointers since he already made up his mind to explore into shooting film. so it is normal for ppl to shed some lights on the path that he has chosen.

    i believe most of those contributed has had experience of (and still) shooting films (neg, b&w, slide) and also own at least a dslr at this present moment.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    visit the shops? I hope this does not mean that you are intending to get a first-hand slr. It is better if you look at the BS forum for a cheaper deal.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by madmacs View Post
    i think i should add here...also need to teach the already-trained monkey not to believe the needle all the time, since the meter can be fooled under certain lighting conditions. the same will apply to dslr also..

    Indeed.

    Unfortunately most trained monkeys are so proud of the fact that they are using MANUAL mode that they forgot their tails are still tied to the camera's metering system.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by cantaresg View Post
    visit the shops? I hope this does not mean that you are intending to get a first-hand slr. It is better if you look at the BS forum for a cheaper deal.
    Hmm, if i can find some suitable models within my budget,I would love to get a brand new one,by the way,there are quite a few shops that sell second hand cameras also,so i just go and see loh
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  19. #59
    Senior Member Galdor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    I find that it's cheaper to get from the B&S here than to get from the 2nd hand shops.
    Minolta. Konica Minolta. Sony

  20. #60

    Default Re: Wanna go film,need pointers!Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by freebsdntu View Post
    Hmm, if i can find some suitable models within my budget,I would love to get a brand new one,by the way,there are quite a few shops that sell second hand cameras also,so i just go and see loh
    those 2nd hand shops?? i think you are better off getting from b&s....usually cheaper too and very good condition. if you gonna get a brand new film slr, maybe better to consider 2nd hand dslr

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