Metering.. without light meter

[nicekit]

Hi guys...

anybody can teach how to calculate light meter..
i quite understand sunny/16 rules.. but maybe someone can re-explain again..

how about calculating flash ?
how much aperture and etc.. ?

Thanks

Kit

[madsolitaire]

Not sure if this will help. I find it useful.

http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

[waileong]

Wiki. Google.

[nicekit]

Originally Posted by waileong Wiki. Google.

you can save your post if you have nothing better to contribute..
thanks

[nicekit]

Originally Posted by madsolitaire Not sure if this will help. I find it useful. http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

thanks.. will read thru it

[waileong]

Originally Posted by nicekit you can save your post if you have nothing better to contribute.. thanks

On the contrary.

The Internet has changed. Anyone who doesn't appreciate or use resources like Wiki and Google is not doing himself any favours.


PS. Why do you think the moderator put up "stickies"?

[alternatve]

Originally Posted by waileong On the contrary. The Internet has changed. Anyone who doesn't appreciate or use resources like Wiki and Google is not doing himself any favours. PS. Why do you think the moderator put up "stickies"?

Well, since he has already posted here, why not help him a bit? He might have already searched for the information, but did not understand it, that's why he is asking us.

On the other side however, it's good to read up first before posting and waiting to be fed.

I usually stick by the sunny 16 rule, which is, if it's sunny outdors, you should set your camera to f/16 and the nearest shutter speed to the ISO of your film. For example, if you are using a ISO 200 film, set the speed to 1/250. If ISO 400, then 1/500.

I have found out that 1/30 f/2 with ISO 400 film is good for general use indoors and use another rule called shady 5.6 which is exactly like the sunny 16 rule just that you have to set the aperture to 5.6.

Light is very very subjective, so for your first few tries, you might not get it. But with experience, I'm sure you'll get the hang of it.

Regards,
Samuel

[nicekit]

Originally Posted by alternatve Well, since he has already posted here, why not help him a bit? He might have already searched for the information, but did not understand it, that's why he is asking us. On the other side however, it's good to read up first before posting and waiting to be fed. I usually stick by the sunny 16 rule, which is, if it's sunny outdors, you should set your camera to f/16 and the nearest shutter speed to the ISO of your film. For example, if you are using a ISO 200 film, set the speed to 1/250. If ISO 400, then 1/500. I have found out that 1/30 f/2 with ISO 400 film is good for general use indoors and use another rule called shady 5.6 which is exactly like the sunny 16 rule just that you have to set the aperture to 5.6. Light is very very subjective, so for your first few tries, you might not get it. But with experience, I'm sure you'll get the hang of it. Regards, Samuel

so for shady 5.6...
the rule is exactly like sunny 16?
ASA 100 set shutter to 125
ASA 200 to shutter 250..
and so forth???

so.. it is more for cloudy right?

i wanna learn more about metering without light meter
cuz the Canon QL17 that i have the meter seems to be ku ku...
:O

[alternatve]

Originally Posted by nicekit so for shady 5.6... the rule is exactly like sunny 16? ASA 100 set shutter to 125 ASA 200 to shutter 250.. and so forth??? so.. it is more for cloudy right? i wanna learn more about metering without light meter cuz the Canon QL17 that i have the meter seems to be ku ku... :O

Yup. Shady 5.6 can be used for cloudy days or shady areas. But as I said, you have to judge for yourself. Sunny f/16 and Shady f/5.6 are not absolute rules, experience must come in as well to judge whether to increase or decrease a stop.

Don't fret over such stuff all the time, as it'll be such a burden. If you're out for some fun, guess the settings the best you can, and shoot. Film nowadays have great latitude anyway.

[nicekit]

Originally Posted by alternatve Yup. Shady 5.6 can be used for cloudy days or shady areas. But as I said, you have to judge for yourself. Sunny f/16 and Shady f/5.6 are not absolute rules, experience must come in as well to judge whether to increase or decrease a stop. Don't fret over such stuff all the time, as it'll be such a burden. If you're out for some fun, guess the settings the best you can, and shoot. Film nowadays have great latitude anyway.

thanks...
any idea about flash calculation?

and what if you don;t know the flash's DIN value?

[waileong]

Originally Posted by alternatve Well, since he has already posted here, why not help him a bit? He might have already searched for the information, but did not understand it, that's why he is asking us. On the other side however, it's good to read up first before posting and waiting to be fed.

I might even add that Wiki is a lot more authoritative than asking for CS-er's "opinions", "tips", "comments", etc. Ask 20 people about exposure and you might get 20 different answers, some wrong, some half wrong, and some right. It takes a long time to get the answers, to sift out the right answers from the wrong ones, to wade through the OT's and to separate the opinions and prejudices from the facts.

Why go through all that when Wiki is at your fingertips?

[alternatve]

Originally Posted by waileong I might even add that Wiki is a lot more authoritative than asking for CS-er's "opinions", "tips", "comments", etc. Ask 20 people about exposure and you might get 20 different answers, some wrong, some half wrong, and some right. It takes a long time to get the answers, to sift out the right answers from the wrong ones, to wade through the OT's and to separate the opinions and prejudices from the facts. Why go through all that when Wiki is at your fingertips?

And what if you don't understand what is written on Wikipedia and need another person to explain it to you?

[alternatve]

Originally Posted by nicekit thanks... any idea about flash calculation? and what if you don;t know the flash's DIN value?

DIN is a old film standard used in europe, like ASA (US) and GOST (USSR).

I'm not a good user of flash, but I'll tell you what I know.

What you are looking for is the flash GN. The higher the number, the more powerful it is. You don't really need to know the GN number if you are shooting relatively close (Though not too close) Plug the flash connection into the socket if your camera doesn't have a hotshoe. If your camera is using anything other then a leaf shutter, you need to find the flash syncronisation shutter speed. If your camera has a leaf shutter (The QL17 has a leaf shutter) you can syncronise at all speeds. But I usually use 1/60 speed. On your flash unit, you should see a table / moving range. Set it / Refer to your ISO speed and distance. The unit will give you the f/stop to use. Get the distance by reading off the distance gauge on your lens after you've focused properly. Try not to stand too close to the target to avoid red eye and try not to take objects that are too far away. If you can, bounce the light or use a diffuser.

Real life however, I rarely, if ever, use flash on my camera. If I really have to, I either diffuse or bounce it. I think it's more natural this way.

[chiif]

Hi Kit,

I presume you are new to photography. Since you ask... I share with you my limited experience...

First of all, you must understand, photography is not something like literature or geography, where you read, you understand, you will take score in the exams. Contrary, photography is something like... even if you don't understand the theory of it, don't know how light meter works, don't understand what ASA, DIN, aperture, shutter speed... you might still be able to take beautiful pictures... or even create art.

Having said that, it is still good to know some fundamentals. I've never attended any formal training on photography before, but I can share with you how you can get pretty good idea on how to learn to "meter" without a light meter.

1. Get hold of a digital camera (borrow from a friend) with manual mode (preferably a DSLR, low end one also can or a cheap cheap Canon D300 also can). You should be able to set the aperture, shutter speed & ISO settings manually. Find a hot sunny afternoon, probably around 2 to 3 pm. Go out to the open and take out the digi-cam set ISO to 400 and set to auto mode and find some buildings and shoot. Do NOT do this under the shade. As taking pictures under tree shade and getting correct exposure is very difficult. Then set the digi-cam to manual. Set the aperture & shutter speed to the same setting as taken at the auto mode and take the same shot. You should get a pretty well exposed shot in manual mode.
(Why ISO 400? Because it's the most common colour negative film you can find today. Unless you shoot with ISO 200 film, set an ISO to the film that you most frequently use)

2. Now, set the aperture to f2.8, with the same shutter speed, take a shot, do the same for f4, f5.6, f8, f16 & f22.

3. Then set the aperture to f2.8 and do the same for the range of shutter speed from 1/30s to 1/4000s. Then try it with f4, f5.6, f8, f16 & f22.

4. Go back, down load the picture to your PC and analyze the pictures. With the EXIF, you can easily see which shoot is taken at which setting. Try and digest and analyze which settings produce acceptable result, as taken at the auto-mode settings.

5. Then do the same for indoor, in the afternoon, 2 to 3pm with natural light from the window.

6. Then progress to artificial light, like from ceiling light or in shopping centres.

7. Do this over and over again, since digital film is FREE. Study the results and ask your self which settings (aperture & shutter speed pair) at which condition is workable. Imagine back in those days we have to learn with 35mm film. Develop into 3R or 4R prints after shooting 36 frames to learn this way!

8. With enough practice, after a few weeks, you will be a natural light meter. But do bear in mind... our eye is very sensitive and can adapt to surrounding very quickly and sometimes can fool your brain. So be realistic when you shoot, it's probably not going to be one shot one kill. If the picture is important, take the same shot with over & under expose settings to make sure at least out of the 3 shots, you will get 1 frame at the right exposure. Otherwise, you can correct the lighting in photoshop after scanning in your negatives.

For flash, I normally use full power, bounce from the ceiling, and experiment with 1/60s & 1/30s with different aperture. From my experience, most of the time, I bounce my flash to the ceiling, with subject about 3 to 5 meters, aperture, f5.6 & 1/60s. if the face is washed out, set aperture smaller to f8. Which is the max I would go. There are only a few combinations of shutter speed & aperture in flash photography in normal room conditions. Normally for flash, we seldom go up more than 1/250s, as it's too fast, the shutter might close before the flash gets fired.

Just shoot more and experiment, you will naturally be good at it. Once you think you are pretty comfortable with guessing the right exposure, do it with film, you should be close to the light meter..

The above is purely from my experience, that's how I learn photography. There may be other people with better or more orthodox methods, and find what I say is totally rubbish. Just pick and choose which is suitable for you. If you prefer reading... carry on doing so.

Regards,
Chii Fei

[nicekit]

Originally Posted by chiif Hi Kit, I presume you are new to photography. Since you ask... I share with you my limited experience... First of all, you must understand, photography is not something like literature or geography, where you read, you understand, you will take score in the exams. Contrary, photography is something like... even if you don't understand the theory of it, don't know how light meter works, don't understand what ASA, DIN, aperture, shutter speed... you might still be able to take beautiful pictures... or even create art. Having said that, it is still good to know some fundamentals. I've never attended any formal training on photography before, but I can share with you how you can get pretty good idea on how to learn to "meter" without a light meter. 1. Get hold of a digital camera (borrow from a friend) with manual mode (preferably a DSLR, low end one also can or a cheap cheap Canon D300 also can). You should be able to set the aperture, shutter speed & ISO settings manually. Find a hot sunny afternoon, probably around 2 to 3 pm. Go out to the open and take out the digi-cam set ISO to 400 and set to auto mode and find some buildings and shoot. Do NOT do this under the shade. As taking pictures under tree shade and getting correct exposure is very difficult. Then set the digi-cam to manual. Set the aperture & shutter speed to the same setting as taken at the auto mode and take the same shot. You should get a pretty well exposed shot in manual mode. (Why ISO 400? Because it's the most common colour negative film you can find today. Unless you shoot with ISO 200 film, set an ISO to the film that you most frequently use) 2. Now, set the aperture to f2.8, with the same shutter speed, take a shot, do the same for f4, f5.6, f8, f16 & f22. 3. Then set the aperture to f2.8 and do the same for the range of shutter speed from 1/30s to 1/4000s. Then try it with f4, f5.6, f8, f16 & f22. 4. Go back, down load the picture to your PC and analyze the pictures. With the EXIF, you can easily see which shoot is taken at which setting. Try and digest and analyze which settings produce acceptable result, as taken at the auto-mode settings. 5. Then do the same for indoor, in the afternoon, 2 to 3pm with natural light from the window. 6. Then progress to artificial light, like from ceiling light or in shopping centres. 7. Do this over and over again, since digital film is FREE. Study the results and ask your self which settings (aperture & shutter speed pair) at which condition is workable. Imagine back in those days we have to learn with 35mm film. Develop into 3R or 4R prints after shooting 36 frames to learn this way! 8. With enough practice, after a few weeks, you will be a natural light meter. But do bear in mind... our eye is very sensitive and can adapt to surrounding very quickly and sometimes can fool your brain. So be realistic when you shoot, it's probably not going to be one shot one kill. If the picture is important, take the same shot with over & under expose settings to make sure at least out of the 3 shots, you will get 1 frame at the right exposure. Otherwise, you can correct the lighting in photoshop after scanning in your negatives. For flash, I normally use full power, bounce from the ceiling, and experiment with 1/60s & 1/30s with different aperture. From my experience, most of the time, I bounce my flash to the ceiling, with subject about 3 to 5 meters, aperture, f5.6 & 1/60s. if the face is washed out, set aperture smaller to f8. Which is the max I would go. There are only a few combinations of shutter speed & aperture in flash photography in normal room conditions. Normally for flash, we seldom go up more than 1/250s, as it's too fast, the shutter might close before the flash gets fired. Just shoot more and experiment, you will naturally be good at it. Once you think you are pretty comfortable with guessing the right exposure, do it with film, you should be close to the light meter.. The above is purely from my experience, that's how I learn photography. There may be other people with better or more orthodox methods, and find what I say is totally rubbish. Just pick and choose which is suitable for you. If you prefer reading... carry on doing so. Regards, Chii Fei

ohhh so u practise on a digital camera...
more like a trail and error until u memories all the numbers for what situation lighting...

i been in photography for quite sometime
but i thought learning the numbers provides better foundation?

but different ppl have different approach

thanks you all

[chiif]

Originally Posted by nicekit ohhh so u practise on a digital camera... more like a trail and error until u memories all the numbers for what situation lighting...

Digital or film, fundamentals remain the same. It's about capturing light on a piece of sensor or light sensitive coated material on plastic.

Yes, it's trial & error & practise.

[juggler]

Can cut this out and put in wallet: Universal Pocket Exposure Calculator (Rick Oleson)

[joteo]

Originally Posted by juggler Can cut this out and put in wallet: Universal Pocket Exposure Calculator (Rick Oleson)

This is a real nice link. Thanks very much.

I googled Pocket Exposure Calculator and it came up with some other alternatives too like:

http://expomat.tripod.com/

It's a little bit more detailed and explains how to use it as well.

The links below that article are really useful and also lead back to the fredparker link given above in post #2. All good stuff.