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Thread: Letter of Guarantee..

  1. #21

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    instead of being so negative about universal healthcare (the NHS is a noble endeavour, you hear lots of bad stories about it but there's alot of good too, my friend works as a doctor there), let's see what we can learn from it. Canada has a good system, why do you just have to pick on the NHS?
    Nobility is not necessarily disengaged from stupidity, I'm sure you know that.

    Don't know what Canada has, perhaps you could elaborate on it, I have only read up on the NHS before.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    Insurance is very important and people should be made aware of that
    my question to you...can everyone afford to buy insurances?

  3. #23

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    Same thing.

    How affordable is affordable? What is affordable for the CEO for a large company is different from what is affordable for the old woman picking cardboard boxes on the street.

    I agree that certain things need state control - defense, utilities. Not medical; healthcare is an industry where costs are high like it or not, to put it blatantly it is unfair to force higher taxes onto everyone. Admittedly taking good care of your health doesn't guarantee a problem-free life healthwise, but a person who's 100% ok, paying for the person who smoked his way into lung cancer - you really think you want to be the former person?

    You really think the nation's people, are ready to do that?

    There are people who are not happy about immigration officers not smiling at them; if they are healthy and there is an announcement that taxes will go up, because the government has decided to subsidize medical costs for everyone alike (even though subsidies ARE in place, just do a short comparison between private and public hospitals, you'd see what I mean, do some reading up).. What do you think their reaction would be?

    There are better ways of doing it - subsidies for the people who REALLY need it. A broad stroke to just reduce health costs across the board strikes me as ridiculous and a plausible breeding ground for further inefficiency and a good driving factor to reduce the population of healthcare workers.

    When I was reading up on the problems in the NHS a while back, you should see the circus stories that Britain healthcare workers had to face because of the "free" healthcare. I think you'd agree with me that cutting costs across the board will lead to similar situations not unlike the scenes (e.g. Mercedes Benz driving people going to free clinics, rofl) of ugly Singaporeans that you see today.
    Affordable to me means not paying more than 10% of my monthly salary to secure a medical plan that can pay all my medical costs if i am hit by a critical illness in a hospital like SGH, NUH. I think my expectation is not too ridiculous, am I?

    Subsidies are in place, but subidies are getting lesser. I think we need to refocus our discussion, who are the target group that we are talking about. My focus is the lower and medium income group.

    Healthcare industry is expensive because of the free market approach that the govt is adopting. Why are medicines cheaper than in Malaysia than in Singapore? Because there is no curb in Spore for the increase, no watchdog, the hospitals are forming cartels, because they know that Sporeans are relatively reacher and have no choice (unless they go Malaysia for drugs).

    Your concern that the expensive medical industry will cause tax payer more money, well, those who are really poor do not pay taxes, and they cant afford the medical costs. Those who are medium income pay high taxes, but they end up paying higher medical costs too. Why? Because the medical industry is governed by market forces. The rich and wealthy will feel the pinch because they are paying more for their fellow citizens.

    I believe that majority of the Singaporeans do not drive Mercedes, most of us are medium class who work hard to overcome the increasing living costs in Spore.

    I dont think the govt has a good way to determine who REALLY deserve the help of the govt, or else they will implement Means Testing long ago.

    As I mentioned looking at Salary alone is superficial. A better way will be co-payment by citizens. You pay for the same rate to get consultation, but if bills for the medicine, will depend on your income level, those who earn more will pay more.
    Last edited by mlwang; 26th July 2007 at 01:32 PM.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    Nobility is not necessarily disengaged from stupidity, I'm sure you know that.

    Don't know what Canada has, perhaps you could elaborate on it, I have only read up on the NHS before.
    I find it amusing that you dismiss others who complain about the healthcare system here as "armchair critics", when your criticism about the NHS is based only on what you have "read up on".

  5. #25

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by LKSC View Post
    I find it amusing that you dismiss others who complain about the healthcare system here as "armchair critics", when your criticism about the NHS is based only on what you have "read up on".
    I have friends over there as international students.

    They would rather pay pounds to visit the doctor then to wait for the public health system.

    Go figure. Fact is, I'm looking at the broader picture - do you have insider info about the NHS? If not, all we can do is compare with what we know. And if you notice, I did pass criticism on the system here, seems like I'm the only one who isn't jumping to any side clearly, just to add some purpose to my life. =)

  6. #26

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by LKSC View Post
    I find it amusing that you dismiss others who complain about the healthcare system here as "armchair critics", when your criticism about the NHS is based only on what you have "read up on".
    No surprise here, whenever there are opinions on the public systems, some defender will jump in and brand others as inane and malicious.

    I think the problem with us is that we like to compare with the worst and conveniently forget about the best. And we always believe we are the best.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by mlwang View Post
    Your concern that the expensive medical industry will cause tax payer more money, well, those who are really poor do not pay taxes, and they cant afford the medical costs. Those who are medium income pay high taxes, but they end up paying higher medical costs too. Why? Because the medical industry is governed by market forces. The rich and wealthy will feel the pinch because they are paying more for their fellow citizens.

    I believe that majority of the Singaporeans do not drive Mercedes, most of us are medium class who work hard to overcome the increasing living costs in Spore.

    I dont think the govt has a good way to determine who REALLY deserve the help of the govt, or else they will implement Means Testing long ago.

    As I mentioned looking at Salary alone is superficial. A better way will be co-payment by citizens. You pay for the same rate to get consultation, but if bills for the medicine, will depend on your income level, those who earn more will pay more.
    Your suggestion of the income-based taxation being workable is not true. As always, my concern with any welfare-orientated system is precisely for the group which you think everyone is in - the middle class.

    The rich lose nothing much, they won't feel the pinch. The poor only stand to gain. The ones which will feel the pinch are the ones who are neither here nor there, not rich enough to be immune to the effects, and not poor enough to gain the benefits of such a system. Agreed?

    I don't really get what you mean in your last paragraph - you state that looking at salary alone is superficial, but you say that the co-payment should be based on income. Last I checked, income was salary?

  8. #28

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by LKSC View Post
    I find it amusing that you dismiss others who complain about the healthcare system here as "armchair critics", when your criticism about the NHS is based only on what you have "read up on".
    Quote Originally Posted by Silence Sky View Post
    No surprise here, whenever there are opinions on the public systems, some defender will jump in and brand others as inane and malicious.

    I think the problem with us is that we like to compare with the worst and conveniently forget about the best. And we always believe we are the best.
    You see, this is why online discussion will never come to any proper conclusion - where all parties see eye to eye. In an Utopian situation, I would not get my posts selectively quoted - if you must reply, reply to it as a whole and not quote selectively. Perhaps I should not even bother to entertain people who just nitpick at whatever I post.

    And yet another one bites the bullet by carrying out ad hominem attacks. =) No surprise really, in the past I thought you had some interesting points to provide but it seems that you're just interested in throwing a spanner into the works for the sake of personal entertainment.

    Provide some valid points, with proper evidence. I have news articles from the NHS side, what do you have? A hot air balloon? =) The facts are clear, it seems.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by westwest2 View Post
    my question to you...can everyone afford to buy insurances?
    No, is the answer.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    Money breeds money, don't forget that.
    Yeah..and lenses breed lenses too..u know..
    but i guess u have more money then my lenses since u understand the former..
    This is an electronic post which requires no signature.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Actually I have been wondering.

    What makes the cost of healthcare shoot up? Equipment moola? Medicine moola? Lets face it, whoever bought over & patented pencillin has 2 choices, depense it freely at the basic production cost or make a profit out of it.

    It makes me wonder abt the true production cost of medicine. Medicine is supposed to save right?

  12. #32

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by jsbn View Post
    It makes me wonder abt the true production cost of medicine. Medicine is supposed to save right?
    its suppose to save the company making the medicine from going bankrupt...

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    I have friends over there as international students.

    They would rather pay pounds to visit the doctor then to wait for the public health system.

    Go figure. Fact is, I'm looking at the broader picture - do you have insider info about the NHS? If not, all we can do is compare with what we know. And if you notice, I did pass criticism on the system here, seems like I'm the only one who isn't jumping to any side clearly, just to add some purpose to my life. =)
    Your friend must be rich enough to pay for private doctor visit in UK
    I have worked under NHS before, I would think NHS is actually not that bad, so do you think I am more credible than your friend or online story? Or no? We all see things from different angle, so we can't just say our view is correct just based on some angle....

    Also, everyone do look at different "broad" picture, so please just don't assume yours is broader than other.
    Sony Alpha 700 hobbyist

  14. #34

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Remember the news article about the ruling party having a "top secret" team of net savy members who reported to an high level party member and whose job was to post pro party comments in Forums and to put down anti party comments? Mmmmm not suprised someone here is one...... if not I find it funny why is this person rabidly fanatically loyal to the party and defends everything and shoots down everyone who has an alternative view.

    I am a loyal Singaporean but I dont believe in being loyal means I have to agree 100 percent with everything the party says. I believe that if we fail to examine ourselves and see if we are really correct and fail to detect problems, we rot from within. History has taught us lessons with great empires like Russia, China's dynasties falling from power all because they felt that dissent mean disloyalty and was to be squashed.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    You see, this is why online discussion will never come to any proper conclusion - where all parties see eye to eye. In an Utopian situation, I would not get my posts selectively quoted - if you must reply, reply to it as a whole and not quote selectively. Perhaps I should not even bother to entertain people who just nitpick at whatever I post.

    And yet another one bites the bullet by carrying out ad hominem attacks. =) No surprise really, in the past I thought you had some interesting points to provide but it seems that you're just interested in throwing a spanner into the works for the sake of personal entertainment.

    Provide some valid points, with proper evidence. I have news articles from the NHS side, what do you have? A hot air balloon? =) The facts are clear, it seems.
    I think people here is not asking for absolutely free medical services, but asking for affordable services.
    Let's not talk about others places, let compare with Malaysia, our closest neighbour.


    Let me give a real life account, i think i quoted it before.

    Mr A Singaporean and MR B Malaysian both down with Colon cancer.
    Mr A is treated in a private hospital and Mr B is also treated in a private hospital but in JB.
    Both use the same drug and similar procedure.
    Mr A pays SG$45,000 for the treatment.
    Mr B pays MR$28,000 for the treatment.

    Why is there such a big difference?

  16. #36

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Health care is such a sensitive topic, sigh...

    Silence, your example is real but difficult to use simply because it's in two different countries. Plainly speaking everything is cheaper in Malaysia. It's for that reason that there are medical "tourists" from the West, from Indonesia, etc. going to Malaysia, Thailand and other cheaper countries for medical procedures. What's there to say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence Sky View Post
    Let me give a real life account, i think i quoted it before.

    Mr A Singaporean and MR B Malaysian both down with Colon cancer.
    Mr A is treated in a private hospital and Mr B is also treated in a private hospital but in JB.
    Both use the same drug and similar procedure.
    Mr A pays SG$45,000 for the treatment.
    Mr B pays MR$28,000 for the treatment.

    Why is there such a big difference?

  17. #37

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Healthcare is an imperfect market.

    Many drugs are protected by patents and the companies which invented them can charge huge $$$ till the patents run out.

    The suppliers (doctors, etc) are typically better informed than the buyers (patients) and hence pricing power is on their side.

    It's not easy to compare prices, time is often not on the buyers' side, and apple-to-apple comparisons are often not possible.

    As a country becomes more developed, medical care becomes more advanced, which means more expensive.

    Fear of malpractice suits also drives up costs, which results in higher prices.

    Are these enough reasons?


    PS. Why would anyone dispense a new drug freely?

    Quote Originally Posted by jsbn View Post
    Actually I have been wondering.

    What makes the cost of healthcare shoot up? Equipment moola? Medicine moola? Lets face it, whoever bought over & patented pencillin has 2 choices, depense it freely at the basic production cost or make a profit out of it.

    It makes me wonder abt the true production cost of medicine. Medicine is supposed to save right?

  18. #38

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    What is your question? If you have no money, then you have no money.

    The simple answer is, most hospitals will allow you to pay by instalments.
    I understand the hospital will allow me to pay by installments, but what if my medical bills are coming every month?

    Let's say being a diabetics, one month i would need about 500 dollars worth of medication, not including tests. I can only afford to pay 250 a month, so what i am supposed to do?
    Don't take medication, maybe i can die earlier?

    Yeah it's hard to ask the gov't to bear so much for me, I never ask what the gov't can do for me, cause i know it's not ever their duties to do anything for me. Well, then let me die.

    Quote Originally Posted by westwest2 View Post
    my question to you...can everyone afford to buy insurances?
    My prefer question is "can EVERYONE buy health insurance?"

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    one guy got knocked over by a car, and when the medics came he just told them not to bring him to the hospital because he had no money, so he forced himself up and limped off.

    Hey that's what i did! when i was in US.
    Last edited by Nisa; 26th July 2007 at 05:31 PM.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Isn't that where organisations such as NKF, Cancer Society, SATA, etc. come in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nisa View Post
    I understand the hospital will allow me to pay by installments, but what if my medical bills are coming every month?

    Let's say being a diabetics, one month i would need about 500 dollars worth of medication, not including tests. I can only afford to pay 250 a month, so what i am supposed to do?
    Don't take medication, maybe i can die earlier?

    Yeah it's hard to ask the gov't to bear so much for me, I never ask what the gov't can do for me, cause i know it's not ever their duties to do anything for me. Well, then let me die.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Letter of Guarantee..

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    I have friends over there as international students.

    They would rather pay pounds to visit the doctor then to wait for the public health system.

    Go figure. Fact is, I'm looking at the broader picture - do you have insider info about the NHS? If not, all we can do is compare with what we know. And if you notice, I did pass criticism on the system here, seems like I'm the only one who isn't jumping to any side clearly, just to add some purpose to my life. =)

    Ur frens' situation might be 1) better than mine, 2) illness worse than mine.
    When i am sick, i rather take over the counter medication and go to the ChinaTown free clinic to see a doc, which will cost me 2 meals less a day.

    That time I am bit gong, cause i forgot there is student insurance!!

    In US, EVERYone can buy an health insurance, no matter what illness they might have.
    But in Singapore, IF u have any major illness, u will not be accepted by any insurance company for health insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by waileong View Post
    Isn't that where organisations such as NKF, Cancer Society, SATA, etc. come in?
    I can pay, just not that much!
    If they help me, then what about those who cannot even pay even half of the bill?

    I just felt there is a need to look at how medical industry is being handled.

    My life is cheap, but what about a sole breadwinner in a household?
    Last edited by Nisa; 26th July 2007 at 05:51 PM.

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