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Thread: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

  1. #21

    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by blueayz View Post
    One of the places I would really like to visit, but have to put off for now. Hope those who are going have a safe and beautiful trip!
    hi blueayz, I will be planning more of such trips next year. Will post them here on the forum.

  2. #22

    Default 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Anyone else interested in the trip? I have pushed back the last day of confirmation to 13th August and all interested parties have to get back to me by 3rd Aug so as to secure air tics and purchase travel insurance. Be quick!

  3. #23

    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    gaza is between egypt and israel, now controlled by the hamas terrorists.
    Hamas being terrorists may just be another western view point. Like some other people may view USA as a terrorist govt.

    Let's not forget that it is the legitimately elected leadership of the Palestinian National Authority by the Palestinian people.

    Very sorry for OT........ opps

  4. #24
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by foreverlovex View Post
    Hamas being terrorists may just be another western view point. Like some other people may view USA as a terrorist govt.

    Let's not forget that it is the legitimately elected leadership of the Palestinian National Authority by the Palestinian people.

    Very sorry for OT........ opps
    terrorism does not depend on viewpoint. any systematic non-isolated violence against civilians outside of state law and conventional warfare is terrorism.

    there is also specific categorisation between legal execution, murder, manslaughter and accidents. of cos there is no stopping of family members of a deceased calling an ambulance driver a murderer, but off the personal interpretations, a general nomenclature that does not depend on viewpoint does exist.

    sometimes we need to separate different things and not lump them together. the video incidence of the JI in singapore does not make singapore an area where terrorism is prevalent, but that does not mean the reporting of this incident is biased. if one just saw the news of the red mosque and ignore the documentary of the same region on the next national geographic channel, and have a biased attitude, you can't blame the journalist media for reporting the important news as you can't expect them to cover lifestyle, philosophy and human geography.

    what a backpacker experiences is not what a long dweller experiences, what a long dweller experiences is not what a local experiences, and what a local experiences is not what a soldier there experiences. there is a lot to understand about a place, and each and every of these resources have their own value, our own experience and our own perception adds to it, they dun replaces it.

    when i travel to a country, my main concern is my safety and whether there is something that i want to see or experience. none of us is going to be there to judge anything as we are only witness of what we see and not witness of what we do not see.

    i think the relevance should be centred on whether it is safe for travellors and for photography.
    Last edited by zoossh; 22nd July 2007 at 12:36 AM.

  5. #25
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    i would be interested if not for the late notice. i need to pre-plan my trip usually more than 6 months ahead.

  6. #26

    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    terrorism does not depend on viewpoint. any systematic non-isolated violence against civilians outside of state law and conventional warfare is terrorism.

    there is also specific categorisation between legal execution, murder, manslaughter and accidents. of cos there is no stopping of family members of a deceased calling an ambulance driver a murderer, but off the personal interpretations, a general nomenclature that does not depend on viewpoint does exist.

    sometimes we need to separate different things and not lump them together. the video incidence of the JI in singapore does not make singapore an area where terrorism is prevalent, but that does not mean the reporting of this incident is biased. if one just saw the news of the red mosque and ignore the documentary of the same region on the next national geographic channel, and have a biased attitude, you can't blame the journalist media for reporting the important news as you can't expect them to cover lifestyle, philosophy and human geography.

    what a backpacker experiences is not what a long dweller experiences, what a long dweller experiences is not what a local experiences, and what a local experiences is not what a soldier there experiences. there is a lot to understand about a place, and each and every of these resources have their own value, our own experience and our own perception adds to it, they dun replaces it.

    when i travel to a country, my main concern is my safety and whether there is something that i want to see or experience. none of us is going to be there to judge anything as we are only witness of what we see and not witness of what we do not see.

    i think the relevance should be centred on whether it is safe for travellors and for photography.
    I have no idea what is terrorism, is it any systematic non-isolated violence against civilians outside of state law and conventional warfare? If I take the meaning of terrorism as what you state, Hamas cannot be a group of terrorists. It was legally elected in as the government of the Palestinian people and they are unlikely to conduct non-isolated violence against Palestinians (less the Fatah) outside of state law (they are part of the government before the Fatahs illegally setup another govt at west bank.) Their warfare against Fatahs in Gaza was generally conventional.

    The context and background are important. Any systematic non-isolated violence against civilians outside of state law and conventional warfare can be deeds of freedom fighters as well. Historically, there is not a lack of freedom fighters (or Terrorism) which carry out such deeds. Internationally (e.g. UN), countries have not even able to agree what is terrorism. One state's "terrorist" is another state's "freedom fighter".

    We should not lump different things together (e.g. like violence + illegal acts + civilians = terrorism). It is unfair to lump things together and put a negative connotation on anyone.

    Hamas is a welfare group for the Palestinians. Hamas is a freedom fighter group to those who believes in its cause. Hamas is a terrorist group to Israel and generally the western world. Hamas kills civilians. Hamas helps civilians.


    interesting to have an exchange of thoughts......let's agreed to disagree. Lol......
    Last edited by foreverlovex; 22nd July 2007 at 01:23 AM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    civilians refer to non-combatants. i'm not saying citizens, i'm saying civilians. it does not matter if JI kills a balinese, a javanese or an australian, that does not define terrorism. by state law, i refer to legal punishment on non-war and non-political criminals.

    freedom fighters is also a totally separate and non-related concept from terrorists. one refers to a goal. another refers to the action. freedom fighters combat against invaders and non-elected authorities, with or without violence, not on civilians. i find it weird to put aung sang suu kyi next to one of those bombers of bali. it is like saying someone is a courageous rapist, whether he is courageous or not, and whether he is a rapist, is two different things that does not relate to or account for each other.

    but anyway, i think 2-3 posts is sufficient for me, dun want to go OT further. you may read further on this article which i find is close to (but not totally the same as) my thoughts. i found this article after typing the above.
    Last edited by zoossh; 22nd July 2007 at 02:03 AM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    I agreed with most of your last post.

    That's why Hamas may not be a terrorist group

    Hamas has goals (although it may be extreme - the basic one is call for the destruction of Israel).
    To them, Israel is an invader who occupied its historical land (of coz the Israelis have their historical views) .

    To have a closer like to like comparison, how about putting aung sang suu kyi beside Arafat? Generally, we can say both are freedom fighters. Not forgetting Arafat killed non-combatants.

    If a country practices national service, is the citizens non-combatants or civilians? If the soldier is a non-combatant, is he a civilian?

    Sometimes life and things are not so clear cut one lah......we are fulfilling multiply roles at any one point of time. And at different times, the same role may change to another role.

    Cheers.

  9. #29
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    i brought over the discussion over another thread to avoid too much OT. http://www.clubsnap.org/forums/showthread.php?t=297581

    ps. think it got deleted and i later realised political discussion is not allowed in clubsnap. also think that is probably a good idea for such rules.
    Last edited by zoossh; 23rd July 2007 at 12:26 AM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Still cannot get a confirmation on this one, but my Pakistan (and Central Asia) lonely planet guide is screaming for attention. Should expect this to be a little bit of Himalaya, a little bit of Central Asia and the wonderful Pakistan friendliness (for people who have been there, they would swear by their friendliness outside the big cities). Hopefully, I have a later start date for my new workplace... then would fit in nicely.

    Also, this should be closer to the true Shangrila (that inspired the novel by James Hilton) than fakies who name their town Shangrila (from the same people that sell cardboards for meals! sheshh!).
    Last edited by Shuttergraphy; 23rd July 2007 at 12:09 AM.

  11. #31
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Shuttergraphy View Post
    Still cannot get a confirmation on this one, but my Pakistan (and Central Asia) lonely planet guide is screaming for attention. Should expect this to be a little bit of Himalaya, a little bit of Central Asia and the wonderful Pakistan friendliness (for people who have been there, they would swear by their friendliness outside the big cities). Hopefully, I have a later start date for my new workplace... then would fit in nicely.

    Also, this should be closer to the true Shangrila (that inspired the novel by James Hilton) than fakies who name their town Shangrila (from the same people that sell cardboards for meals! sheshh!).
    are you keen on a trip on sikkim or northeast india somewhere next year (apr onwards)? hoping to pre-plan for some of the masked dancing festivals, such as the tsechu. as for central asia, a couple of them are going xinjiang in september.

  12. #32

    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    are you keen on a trip on sikkim or northeast india somewhere next year (apr onwards)? hoping to pre-plan for some of the masked dancing festivals, such as the tsechu. as for central asia, a couple of them are going xinjiang in september.
    Yellow card for OT again, next one and you're heading for early showers! But thanks for the offer. Pakistan and Central Asia were the two destinations i had wanted to do during my sabbatical which i did not manage to complete, might still be able to squeeze it in. I would not be able to plan so far ahead in terms of Sikkim but who knows, maybe India could be a future territory for work (easier to swing by then).
    Last edited by Shuttergraphy; 23rd July 2007 at 02:14 AM.

  13. #33

    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Shuttergraphy View Post
    Still cannot get a confirmation on this one, but my Pakistan (and Central Asia) lonely planet guide is screaming for attention. Should expect this to be a little bit of Himalaya, a little bit of Central Asia and the wonderful Pakistan friendliness (for people who have been there, they would swear by their friendliness outside the big cities). Hopefully, I have a later start date for my new workplace... then would fit in nicely.

    Also, this should be closer to the true Shangrila (that inspired the novel by James Hilton) than fakies who name their town Shangrila (from the same people that sell cardboards for meals! sheshh!).
    On the part about the real Shangri-la, I have to agree with u. In fact, my friend who was in Northern Xinjiang told me that that area is even more untouched and more beautiful... I cannot wait to get there one day and see it for myself!

  14. #34

    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by foreverlovex View Post
    I agreed with most of your last post.

    That's why Hamas may not be a terrorist group

    Hamas has goals (although it may be extreme - the basic one is call for the destruction of Israel).
    To them, Israel is an invader who occupied its historical land (of coz the Israelis have their historical views) .

    To have a closer like to like comparison, how about putting aung sang suu kyi beside Arafat? Generally, we can say both are freedom fighters. Not forgetting Arafat killed non-combatants.

    If a country practices national service, is the citizens non-combatants or civilians? If the soldier is a non-combatant, is he a civilian?

    Sometimes life and things are not so clear cut one lah......we are fulfilling multiply roles at any one point of time. And at different times, the same role may change to another role.

    Cheers.
    Interesting debate going on here. I am not very familiar with the politics around the Gaza area but do somewhat understand how the US govt is manipulating Israel to gain a foothold in the Middle Eastern area. Am going to start on a book 'The Great War for Civilisation' by Robert Fisk, a British journalist, and hopefully will gain more insight into the chaos of the last century.

    I get my news feed from this alternative news website which really exposes the truth behind so much veiled and censored news by the mainstream media. Check it out if u are into world issues, current affairs and international politics, particularly that of the United States and the Middle East.
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/

    Oops, seriously OT here. Hope I wun get kicked.

  15. #35

    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Shuttergraphy View Post
    ....
    ....
    Also, this should be closer to the true Shangrila (that inspired the novel by James Hilton) than fakies who name their town Shangrila (from the same people that sell cardboards for meals! sheshh!).
    Really, who is to say and define Shangrila? Shangrila is different for each and everyone!

  16. #36
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by aurora26 View Post
    Interesting debate going on here. I am not very familiar with the politics around the Gaza area but do somewhat understand how the US govt is manipulating Israel to gain a foothold in the Middle Eastern area. Am going to start on a book 'The Great War for Civilisation' by Robert Fisk, a British journalist, and hopefully will gain more insight into the chaos of the last century.

    I get my news feed from this alternative news website which really exposes the truth behind so much veiled and censored news by the mainstream media. Check it out if u are into world issues, current affairs and international politics, particularly that of the United States and the Middle East.
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/

    Oops, seriously OT here. Hope I wun get kicked.
    it's ok, i think. the mods dun read that deeply unless it is in the thread title.

    anyway i think the lonely planet for pakistan seems too old in 2004. i think each edition should not differs for more than 3 years.

    p.s. i always like the cover for lonely planet. seems to have strong appeal to me

  17. #37

    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    it's ok, i think. the mods dun read that deeply unless it is in the thread title.

    anyway i think the lonely planet for pakistan seems too old in 2004. i think each edition should not differs for more than 3 years.

    p.s. i always like the cover for lonely planet. seems to have strong appeal to me

    Yeah, I was waiting for the Pak LP guide to churn a new one out early this year, but they would only be coming with an updated version next yr. There's a new LP guide on Central Asia though, and they have separated Afghanistan from it. That means Afghanistan actually has a brand new book dedicated to itself! How cool is that!

  18. #38
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    but the new turn in events for afghanistan is very distressing.

  19. #39

    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by zoossh View Post
    but the new turn in events for afghanistan is very distressing.
    yeah, true... and it's all over the news... I actually wanted to make a trip there with some other travellers back in May when I went to Pakistan and I decided not to go in the end after locals advised me against it. They kept tellin me not to take the chance, and these are all educated, well-travelled Pakistanis who have been around the world. We might just wait for another 5-10years for the country to brace itself up and rebuilding is completed. But for a country which has been thru war for 40over years, rebuilding is not going to be easy, wat's more with such a corrupted regime inside the country right now... Sigh...

  20. #40
    Senior Member zoossh's Avatar
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    Default Re: 15 day trip to Northern Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by aurora26 View Post
    yeah, true... and it's all over the news... I actually wanted to make a trip there with some other travellers back in May when I went to Pakistan and I decided not to go in the end after locals advised me against it. They kept tellin me not to take the chance, and these are all educated, well-travelled Pakistanis who have been around the world. We might just wait for another 5-10years for the country to brace itself up and rebuilding is completed. But for a country which has been thru war for 40over years, rebuilding is not going to be easy, wat's more with such a corrupted regime inside the country right now... Sigh...
    corruption is not as bad as bias and violence. the first blinds a person, the second drains out empathy out of a person. in the late century, a lot of countries have went through a period of corruption before everything stabilises, but those with bias and violence remains in a cycling turmoils.
    Last edited by zoossh; 4th August 2007 at 05:18 PM.

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