View Poll Results: Can Japan conquer China ,if Japan concentrate all her resources on China campaigns

Voters
38. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, Japan will conquer the whole China

    6 15.79%
  • No, China will resist and use all her resources to defend herself

    28 73.68%
  • Not Sure

    4 10.53%
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 42

Thread: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

  1. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Some equitorial, tropical isle
    Posts
    2,398

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie View Post
    But the Chinese was poorly trained and even more poorly equiped. Some don't even have a gun, using a Sabre to hack the Japanese....
    When you run out of bullets.... a sabre can be deadly....
    The Chinese can afford to send one warm body to drain off a few bullets....

  2. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Bukit Timah
    Posts
    59

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Even if the Jap concentrated on fighting China alone and not do the Pearl Habour thing, I doubt they will succeed. Even if they succeeded, I dun think the conquer will last very long before the Jap would be kicked out.

  3. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Some equitorial, tropical isle
    Posts
    2,398

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Another question is... what would Asia be like WITHOUT the Jap offensive?? Would the Asian countries gain independence? Would China be weaker than it is today?

    We might be using pounds and shillings, and speak with stiff upper lips instead...

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Outside the Dry Box.
    Posts
    16,268

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zplus View Post
    Another question is... what would Asia be like WITHOUT the Jap offensive?? Would the Asian countries gain independence? Would China be weaker than it is today?

    We might be using pounds and shillings, and speak with stiff upper lips instead...
    U might be sweeping floor now, while i am wiping table...
    Logging Off. "You have 2,631 messages stored, of a total 400 allowed." don't PM me.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    新天地
    Posts
    4,768

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zplus View Post
    Another question is... what would Asia be like WITHOUT the Jap offensive?? Would the Asian countries gain independence? Would China be weaker than it is today?

    We might be using pounds and shillings, and speak with stiff upper lips instead...
    Aren't we speaking Singlish with stiff upper lips?

    If not with Japs as overloards we'll be speaking Nihongo with soft lower lips.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie View Post
    But the Chinese was poorly trained and even more poorly equiped. Some don't even have a gun, using a Sabre to hack the Japanese....
    try that again now

  7. #27

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    My vote is China would succeed in defending herself, even if Japanese threw all they had into China.

    1. The Japanese had limited resources. Even taking out the conflict in Pacific theatre against the US, they simply did not have the logistical assets and numerical superiority on their side. They HAD to bring their offensive down to SEA region.

    2. They had started the war with China but their intention soon grew to SEA because of resources. It grew overly ambitious, and China didn't gave them what they had wanted (tin, oil and rubber), and yes, like Germany's invasion into Russia. It was just plain too big piece for them to bite.

    3. Japanese focused their available resources into building a first class navy with their 8-8 armada, and dreadnoughts and flattops would be pretty useless for a full invasion. Though their Armies were well trained, the Imperial's decision didn't work well for protracted offensive like overruning China.

    So with my dua-puluh sen's worth, I think their plan was doomed to fail from the beginning.
    from guitars, cars to dslr...

  8. #28

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    if usa didnt enter the war, maybe , the world is now most probably dominated by 3 big powers, us, germany and japan.

    china may have numerical superiority in terms of people, but without superior firepower, it counts for almost nothing. china at that time was the sick man of asia - western powers had already carved up extra territorial rights in the big cities like shanghai.

    japan's firepower at that time was second to none in the pacific. in 1905, in the Tsushima Straits, japan's victory over russia was one of the most decisive sea battle in history. it was 45 russian ships versus 31 japanese ships. final tally of the fight: 21 russian ships sunk, 13 captured or disarmed. japan lost only 3 torpedo boats.

    smaller (area and/or population) countries do win over bigger countries as proven in history, eg france under napolean conquered most of euro. mongols conquered almost the whole of asia and half of euro. malacca controlled the whole of malaya.

    in the final analysis, superior firepower is the determinant of who the victor is. numerical numbers will only be useful when accomapnied by firepower.

  9. #29
    Senior Member King Tiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    In the heart of SengKang
    Posts
    5,882

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    china at that time was the sick man of asia - western powers had already carved up extra territorial rights in the big cities like shanghai.

    Yes, China was insulted and humiliated by Japan and European Powers from the begining of the late 19th Century onwards.

    The words Sick Man of Asia 東 亞 病 夫, reminds me one of the Bruce Lee's movies : Fist of Fury.




    This 4 chinese characters 東 亞 病 夫 have great impact to people of China and even in today society.

    It unite China's nationalism and Chinese's determination to fight, and prove to the world that China will never be look down again.


    中 国 人 不 是 東 亞 病 夫

    Last edited by King Tiger; 7th July 2007 at 01:16 AM.

  10. #30
    Senior Member King Tiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    In the heart of SengKang
    Posts
    5,882

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Quote Originally Posted by firestone View Post
    In the Xian incident (Dec 12, 1936), General Zhang and another general Yang Hu-cheng kidnapped Chiang Kai-shek and imprisoned the head of the Nationalist government until he agreed to form a united front with the communists against the Japanese invasion.

    Chiang at the time took a non-resistent position against the Japanese invasion, he rather put his efforts in fighting his own countrymen than the foreign invaders. Chiang broke the truce shortly after. He used his best forces against the communists while leaving many cities such as Nanking wide open for the Japanese to take over.

    Do read abt General Zhang, a real hero.
    He spent half a century in house arrest for his role in the Xian incident.
    http://nostalgia.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Xue-liang

    Sometimes, internal enemies like the bustard Chiang is more dangerous than invaders.
    General Zhang Xue liang, I salute and respect him.

    A brilliant General who put the people and country on first priority and know who should be the real enemy to fight,
    despite knowing that the then communist was enemy of KMT.
    Last edited by King Tiger; 7th July 2007 at 01:26 AM.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tiger View Post
    General Zhang Xue liang, I salute and respect him.

    A brilliant General who put the people and country on first priority and know who should be the real enemy to fight,
    despite knowing that the then communist was enemy of KMT.
    General Zhang is a career soldier - like any good soldier, who wanted nothing but to served his country. General Zhang's objective is simple and clear but the 2 opposing chinese parties r politicians with very grand visions and have v complex schemes. the ccp and kmt r hoping against hope that the jap will destroy the other party. this happens repeatedly throughout history, either implicitly, explicitly or by invitatation. the british applied this tactic during their empire building time esp in india whereby the various maharajahs "invites" the british to strength their position in their disputes. the brits frequently stoke flames so that they can be part of the disturbance and benefit from whatever the outcome of any dispute.

    foreign powers intervention in any dispute is inseparable in all disputes since pre-historic times and it continues till today...

  12. #32

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgo View Post
    Never. I'm always for the idea that one country will NEVER succeed if they try to conquer any country which does not belong to them. The will of the Chinese is stronger than anything else.

    Anyway, China is too huge in land mass for any country to take over. Population is also too big to eliminate. As the saying goes, if each 人民解放军 urinate on a crater, it will become a reservoir!
    I agree with you. Japan does not have the mass. Too small to cover the whole of China. There are/were just too many Chinese to be killed. And remember, do not wake up a giant unless you are asking for trouble!

  13. #33

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Quote Originally Posted by firestone View Post
    In the Xian incident (Dec 12, 1936), General Zhang and another general Yang Hu-cheng kidnapped Chiang Kai-shek and imprisoned the head of the Nationalist government until he agreed to form a united front with the communists against the Japanese invasion.

    Chiang at the time took a non-resistent position against the Japanese invasion, he rather put his efforts in fighting his own countrymen than the foreign invaders. Chiang broke the truce shortly after. He used his best forces against the communists while leaving many cities such as Nanking wide open for the Japanese to take over.

    Do read abt General Zhang, a real hero.
    He spent half a century in house arrest for his role in the Xian incident.
    http://nostalgia.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Xue-liang

    Sometimes, internal enemies like the bustard Chiang is more dangerous than invaders.
    Chiang was a soilder and a thinker, he knew that Japan could not take over China and he was waiting for an opportunity to the one to lead China resulting many lives loss. He was eventually force to join force with Mao as he knew that he could not have the support he wanted.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    General Zhang is a career soldier - like any good soldier, who wanted nothing but to served his country. General Zhang's objective is simple and clear but the 2 opposing chinese parties r politicians with very grand visions and have v complex schemes. the ccp and kmt r hoping against hope that the jap will destroy the other party. this happens repeatedly throughout history, either implicitly, explicitly or by invitatation. the british applied this tactic during their empire building time esp in india whereby the various maharajahs "invites" the british to strength their position in their disputes. the brits frequently stoke flames so that they can be part of the disturbance and benefit from whatever the outcome of any dispute.

    foreign powers intervention in any dispute is inseparable in all disputes since pre-historic times and it continues till today...
    General Zhang was a great soilder. He knew and read the minds of both CCP and KMT. He knew that KMT was taking advantage and he knew that the CCP was gathering political asset by fighting the Japanese as they had no choice. KMT made the wrong move and lost China to the CCP. The rest is history.

  15. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Singapore, western area
    Posts
    5,337

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Even if japan did concentrate all her resources, she would have to spend them all conquering china. Next, even though japan might have conquered several cities, what they do to the civilians was simply dumb - killing innocents. They won't have the support to generate the resources even if it was a well resourced city.

  16. #36
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    89

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    I think Japan might succeed in conquering China had it avoided fighting in 3 fronts (China, SEA, pacific?). Reasons include their advance biological weapons program, superior airpower which can match anything the US could muster during the early days of the war.

    The battle of Midway was a watershed and Japan never did recover from losing all those planes and aircraft carriers in the defeat.

  17. #37
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    89

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yappy View Post
    General Zhang was a great soilder. He knew and read the minds of both CCP and KMT. He knew that KMT was taking advantage and he knew that the CCP was gathering political asset by fighting the Japanese as they had no choice. KMT made the wrong move and lost China to the CCP. The rest is history.
    I just finished reading (and sometimes dozing off while reading) Mao Zedong's biography by Jung Chang. In the book, wrt to General Zhang, his motive for kidnapping CKS was that he wanted to replace CKS as head of KMT and President of China.

    I am not saying that this is a historical fact, but the author did an interview with General Zhang while he was retired in an old folks home in Canada... can't recall the details maybe I will look it up later when I get home

    This is the book I read

    [update]

    Just did a quick scan of the chapter in the book about the kidnapping of CKS. Some interesting points:

    1. General Zhang ("young marshal") inherited Manchuria when his warlord father ('old marshal') was assassinated in 1928.
    2. Zhang placed domain under CKS central govt and ruled Manchuria until japanese invaded in 1931.
    3. But Zhang tried to supplant CKS by offering to make a deal with the russians that he was ready to form alliance with the chinese redsand engage the japanese. In return Zhang wanted Moscow to back him to replace CKS as head of the country.
    Last edited by FooFighter; 10th July 2007 at 11:14 PM.

  18. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Planet Eropagnis
    Posts
    2,944

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zplus View Post
    When you run out of bullets.... a sabre can be deadly....
    The Chinese can afford to send one warm body to drain off a few bullets....
    Sabre vs Katana?

    I'd like to see a battle like dat man.

  19. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Planet Eropagnis
    Posts
    2,944

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Quote Originally Posted by sprintist View Post
    Even if japan did concentrate all her resources, she would have to spend them all conquering china. Next, even though japan might have conquered several cities, what they do to the civilians was simply dumb - killing innocents. They won't have the support to generate the resources even if it was a well resourced city.
    The Imperial Army did the logical thing in war but whilst the move was logical for any conquering army to do so, its committing political suicide.

    The propaganda worked well in persuading Chinese Armies to surrender wholesale at Nanking. However when soldier's mentality of, "I dun even have food & water to feed my own army, u tell me to feed civilians? Priority: Army first. Can waste the Civilians as target practice boards." they literally committed political suicide.

    Had the Imperial Army walked in and lived out the promises of their propaganda and tamed their conquered quests (like what they did when the colonized Taiwan) with Civilian Administrators to the cities instead of Military Commanders, half of China would have rose against the KMT and CCP.

    I guess old habits ARE hard to break. Education reform during the rein of Meiji Emperor and the long standing history of internal warfare and spirit of Samurai never died. Enemy lose = Kill or Seppuku.

  20. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Outside the Dry Box.
    Posts
    16,268

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Invasion of China (07 July 1937)

    Quote Originally Posted by jsbn View Post
    Sabre vs Katana?

    I'd like to see a battle like dat man.
    (Of Heavenly Sword & Dragon Saber fame, used by Zhang Wuji)屠龙刀 vs 服部 半蔵 (Hattori Hanzo of Kill Bill Fame used by the bride)
    Logging Off. "You have 2,631 messages stored, of a total 400 allowed." don't PM me.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •