Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 81

Thread: Weapon Talk

  1. #1
    Senior Member zac08's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    East
    Posts
    11,755

    Default Weapon Talk

    Anyone interested in weapon chat??

    Come in and lets talk.

    First topic for the day, should our Police Force change their ball rounds to hollow point(HP) rounds? This is to prevent over-penetration and liable collateral damages when the rounds over-penetrate the target and hit someone else behind.

    Anyone game?
    Michael Lim
    My Flickr Site

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Singapore Pasir RIs
    Posts
    1,095

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by zac08 View Post
    Anyone interested in weapon chat??

    Come in and lets talk.

    First topic for the day, should our Police Force change their ball rounds to hollow point(HP) rounds? This is to prevent over-penetration and liable collateral damages when the rounds over-penetrate the target and hit someone else behind.

    Anyone game?
    Actually, SPF is using a mixture of rounds including HP rounds...

  3. #3

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by m00nman26 View Post
    Actually, SPF is using a mixture of rounds including HP rounds...
    just a curious question gens... are our airports or any others areas like orchard road and mrt stations securities personnels trained to shoot in that environments where the chances of collateral damages are high? i mean are they fully train like the sas where split decision is critical to indentify good and bad guys? sas are train to shoot on instinct... but are ours?

    cheerz

  4. #4

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by teruranse View Post
    just a curious question gens... are our airports or any others areas like orchard road and mrt stations securities personnels trained to shoot in that environments where the chances of collateral damages are high? i mean are they fully train like the sas where split decision is critical to indentify good and bad guys? sas are train to shoot on instinct... but are ours?

    cheerz
    If our own police went through the same training and filtering system as the SAS, I assure you, our police force would be about, oh, 10 or 20 men strong?

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Punggol 21
    Posts
    967

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    i thought hollow point rounds are more damaging than ball rounds?

    i think they should use five seven ...

  6. #6

    Talking Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by jmmtn4aj View Post
    If our own police went through the same training and filtering system as the SAS, I assure you, our police force would be about, oh, 10 or 20 men strong?
    not the filtering system though... i dont expect our local police forces or even our elite to even pass the super training at sas where the dropout rate are bout80% and above... and beside sas dun suka suka recuit soldiers... they need to have some real combat experience before they are even shortlisted... even the delta forces may not all pass thru it...

    i just mean they just might that lack that kind of shooting skill in crowded areas...

  7. #7

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Sjourn View Post
    i thought hollow point rounds are more damaging than ball rounds?

    i think they should use five seven ...
    That's the point. When any organization selects ammunition, they look at 3 things; stopping power, range, and availability. Price is rarely a factor unless it's really extravagant. Range is the maximum distance a bullet is able to travel while maintaining acceptable accuracy, availability is how many other countries or organization within that country uses it, and how easy it is to acquire it on the market (the NATO rounds are shared by all NATO countries and more because on the battlefield it makes logistics much more simple), and stopping power is the ability to stop a person. Stopping power is what is in focus here.

    On any battlefield, including on in an urban setting, the escalation to using weapons means that the weapon operator's job is now shoot to kill. Studies show that if a bullet doesn't permanently disable a person on impact, his adrenaline system will render all subsequent shots painless, thus unless the subsequent shots disable him by striking the brain or critical joints in the body, they won't stop him through pain or shock, because of the adrenaline coursing through his bloodstream. More bullets fire also raises the chances of a weapon jam or collateral damage, thus increasing the need for a one-shot-stop weapon. Hollowpoint ammunition does this by expanding upon impact, causing massive internal injuries and bleeding. This ensures that even if the victim doesn't die by the impact of the bullet, he will by bleeding out in minutes. If minutes is too long, supposing he had a weapon, the the operator has the option of shooting him a few more times, and with the expanding properties of the bullet, he is far more likely to critically injure major organs within the body, such as the kidneys, the heart, the spinal cord, the neck, or the brain.

    The five-seven's ammunition, the SS190, has had many debates raised about it's stopping power. The SS190 was developed to be armor piercing, or AP, but remember that the bullet on measures 5.7mm across. It's a small bullet, and consequently doesn't produce too much damage by kinetic energy on impact. Because of it's design, optimized to pierce armor, the SS190 also tends to travel right through the target. Besides the obvious problems with collateral damage (traveling through the target and injuring innocent people), this also means even less kinetic energy is transferred into the body.
    Last edited by jmmtn4aj; 20th June 2007 at 09:28 AM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    I'm a Llama!
    Posts
    4,751

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by teruranse View Post
    just a curious question gens... are our airports or any others areas like orchard road and mrt stations securities personnels trained to shoot in that environments where the chances of collateral damages are high? i mean are they fully train like the sas where split decision is critical to indentify good and bad guys? sas are train to shoot on instinct... but are ours?

    cheerz
    Certain police units are trained for close quarter situations. I was letting off a few rounds a couple of weeks ago at the Singapore Gun Club when I saw a confined course that was set up. Was told that it was for police units to train in urban type settings.

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Singapore Pasir RIs
    Posts
    1,095

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Terence View Post
    Certain police units are trained for close quarter situations. I was letting off a few rounds a couple of weeks ago at the Singapore Gun Club when I saw a confined course that was set up. Was told that it was for police units to train in urban type settings.
    Yes.. SPF does have specialized training for urban built up areas.
    That's all i can say now.

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Singapore Pasir RIs
    Posts
    1,095

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by m00nman26 View Post
    Yes.. SPF does have specialized training for urban built up areas.
    That's all i can say now.
    but of coz, such training isnt done at the sg gun club.. the one u saw was prob a simulation for a competition shoot scenario

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Planet Eropagnis
    Posts
    2,944

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Sjourn View Post
    i thought hollow point rounds are more damaging than ball rounds?

    i think they should use five seven ...
    Maybe SPF and our local weapons maker shld come out with a fully localised wildcat round.

    For our boys in blue - Maybe do something like a ball round .40mm
    For STAR Unit - A localised version of a Glock + Desert Eagle with a .50mm calibre round for sidearm FMJ & a shorter version of the SAR21 but using 7.62mm FMJ rounds.

    Oh yes, and when STAR Unit gets called in, make it a Free-for-All thing. Dun care hostage or criminal, Grenade & Spray the whole place. This would send an extremely serious "We dun care who u are, kill on sight." to hardcore criminals who are thinking of doing up a barricade with hostage scenario.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Planet Eropagnis
    Posts
    2,944

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Terence View Post
    Certain police units are trained for close quarter situations. I was letting off a few rounds a couple of weeks ago at the Singapore Gun Club when I saw a confined course that was set up. Was told that it was for police units to train in urban type settings.
    SGC? I was contemplating a while back to join their Sampler Shooting programme.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    I'm a Llama!
    Posts
    4,751

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by jsbn View Post
    SGC? I was contemplating a while back to join their Sampler Shooting programme.
    I enjoyed trap shooting much more than the pistols/revolvers. Shooting at static targets got boring after a little while, using the Glock didn't help much, the thing felt like a toy.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by teruranse View Post
    just a curious question gens... are our airports or any others areas like orchard road and mrt stations securities personnels trained to shoot in that environments where the chances of collateral damages are high? i mean are they fully train like the sas where split decision is critical to indentify good and bad guys? sas are train to shoot on instinct... but are ours?

    cheerz
    those orchard road and mrt stations securities personnels are they for presence nia... to act as a deterrant...

    i look at them and i think most of them are just police NSF...
    god knows what orders they have been given... most probably just walk here and walk and if really something crop up, radio for enforcement to get the real guys to come in and defuse the situation.

    u expect the actual SOF or CT unit to do patrol?

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Singapore Pasir RIs
    Posts
    1,095

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by jsbn View Post
    Maybe SPF and our local weapons maker shld come out with a fully localised wildcat round.

    For our boys in blue - Maybe do something like a ball round .40mm
    For STAR Unit - A localised version of a Glock + Desert Eagle with a .50mm calibre round for sidearm FMJ & a shorter version of the SAR21 but using 7.62mm FMJ rounds.

    Oh yes, and when STAR Unit gets called in, make it a Free-for-All thing. Dun care hostage or criminal, Grenade & Spray the whole place. This would send an extremely serious "We dun care who u are, kill on sight." to hardcore criminals who are thinking of doing up a barricade with hostage scenario.
    Actually rifles are seldom used in built up area combat... More frequently used are 9mm SMGs, which provides mobility, accuracy at close distance, and not too much penetration power that it would injure innocent victims.

    Urban area combat... is very different from military combat. That's why a distinction is drawn. Use of 7.62 FMJ would be totally overkill..

    As for hostage scenarios, SPF has a specific procedures to deal with it. Though actual use in a real scenario in SIngapore... so far no chance to use

  16. #16

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by auron View Post
    those orchard road and mrt stations securities personnels are they for presence nia... to act as a deterrant...

    i look at them and i think most of them are just police NSF...
    god knows what orders they have been given... most probably just walk here and walk and if really something crop up, radio for enforcement to get the real guys to come in and defuse the situation.

    u expect the actual SOF or CT unit to do patrol?
    Actually there guys from the SOC who are doing rounds. What do they look like? From the appearance you can easily differentiate between the NS men, Gurkhas, and SOC guys.

  17. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Singapore Pasir RIs
    Posts
    1,095

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Plus in built up areas, rifle rounds are prone to deflection whereas 9mm rounds when deflected seldom possess enough velocity to kill an innocent bystander..

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Planet Eropagnis
    Posts
    2,944

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Terence View Post
    I enjoyed trap shooting much more than the pistols/revolvers. Shooting at static targets got boring after a little while, using the Glock didn't help much, the thing felt like a toy.
    Trap shooting? Contemplated it for a while but I think I'll stick to static targets. Easier to imagine the object of my anger on it. hehehe....

    How's the membership like anyway? Thinking of picking up small-arms shooting skills.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Planet Eropagnis
    Posts
    2,944

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by m00nman26 View Post
    Actually rifles are seldom used in built up area combat... More frequently used are 9mm SMGs, which provides mobility, accuracy at close distance, and not too much penetration power that it would injure innocent victims.

    Urban area combat... is very different from military combat. That's why a distinction is drawn. Use of 7.62 FMJ would be totally overkill..

    As for hostage scenarios, SPF has a specific procedures to deal with it. Though actual use in a real scenario in SIngapore... so far no chance to use
    The thing is, are there any hardcore criminals like in the 60s?

    If u're in SPF, I'm sure u heard of the Kidnap King Morgan Teo of the 60s. Grukhas had to be called in.

    IIRC, Former CP Goh Yong Hong was a Supretendent dat time. He handled the case personally.

    Anyway, how often do we hear (officially) STAR Unit gets called in? The last time round was the Cell holdup thing at one of the Police Station IIRC.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    I'm a Llama!
    Posts
    4,751

    Default Re: Weapon Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by jsbn View Post
    Trap shooting? Contemplated it for a while but I think I'll stick to static targets. Easier to imagine the object of my anger on it. hehehe....

    How's the membership like anyway? Thinking of picking up small-arms shooting skills.
    More details here... www.singaporegunclub.com

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •