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Thread: What culture is it here??!!

  1. #181

    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Enchanted View Post
    Yes & No -- If you are not proven or validate as a proficient photographer or Photo Artist ( in whatever in your specific fields), your critiques on related photo works will be deem less valuable. However, if the Receiver knew the Critique Giver, in person or in private long-term exchanges, then YES, it will be quite valid, due to personal Trust, that built thru fellowship and sharings.




    Advocating Elitism ? - NO. What i am proposing is Responsibility !

    - - -
    There's a line between elitism and responsibility. This: "if you are not proven or validate as a proficient photographer or Photo Artist ( in whatever in your specific fields), your critiques on related photo works will be deem less valuable. However, if the Receiver knew the Critique Giver, in person or in private long-term exchanges, then YES, it will be quite valid, due to personal Trust, that built thru fellowship and sharings" has a point. Everyone is entitled to their pov and good critics are people who do their critiques intelligently and responsibly. Saying that someone cannot voice or even invalidating their pov just because they're not good as a photographer themselves reeks of elitism.
    Last edited by garou12; 21st June 2007 at 01:02 PM.

  2. #182
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    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet View Post
    Does a photography critic needs to demonstrate that he/she is a good, great or master photographer, before his/her critique will be taken seriously, and on the same note, does this critic has to be a good, great or master photographer inorder to criticise? Really, does a critic needs even to be a photogrpaher to criticise photographs?

    My answer is simple and direct. NO!

    My direct answer is NO too.

    Read my earlier opinion which the thread starter avoided completely...
    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showpost....4&postcount=85

    He just harp and harp on other issues....really do not know what he want.

  3. #183
    vince123123
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    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    I noticed that you are championing very strongly for the need to have qualifications before a critique can be taken seriously (or even suggesting that payment is involved). This is by far a seriously wrong misconception.

    No one is paying anyone to be a critique here. Just because you are a professional photographer doesn't automatically make your criticism valid and worthy. Just because someone does not have any qualifications doesn't make their criticism invalid or unworthy.

    You have given the analogy of portfolio, and professional photgraphers vs hobbyist and who clients will choose - this is again a flawed analogy - we are not talking about client management or marketing here, we are talking abt critcism.

    A critique or debate or argument should be taken based on the substance of that critique, debate or argument. Too much talk about qualifications only detracts from the substance of discussion.

    Even in my chosen field of specialisation, I do not, in an online debate, wave my qualifications and say that I must be correct and you must be wrong just because I am qualified and you are not. We debate/discuss/argue/critique based on substance, and not qualifications.

    As pointed out by another poster, if you make a stupid comment and say "I'm a professional photographer so therefore my comments are valid" - you will only serve to make a fool of yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Enchanted View Post
    It seems like "culture shock" to me, in reading such opinions and views that is so different from yours ...

    It would be honorable if the Critique Giver has some Portfolio of works to accessed to, for validation and credential. -- It's like taking a bank loan with stated collaterals, i can't imagine any bankers are willing to deal with anyone just by any identity alone.

    Without portfolio of works ( good or bad ), nobody in the right minds are going to take that chance to buy your works or your words !

    Sure, there are credible people around who doesn't present their works online or in private exchanges. However, you can't expect everyone to be able to tell by your words alone, that you are "somebody" who are qualified for making a honorable or educated critiques.

    The question here is HOW to discern who are genuine and who are not.


    [ Although i disagree to many views presented here, but that does not mean i don;t have respect for certain posters, who care to outline their thoughts gentlemanly ... While those seems like picking a fight just becos of different POV, are really sad ... ]

  4. #184
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    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Enchanted View Post
    Thank you for your input.
    u dun have to thank me..just a friendly discussion only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enchanted View Post
    Here's my say: If my quality of works are below Client's expectation, i'll will asked for her reasoning and will amend the artworks accordingly. Afterall, i don't fight and argue with money or with my wonderful Bosses ( wedding clients ), if they could pay, i'll shall deliver !!
    Yes..a valid reasoning is more valuable then a set photos as credential..
    ..but in this real world there are many nasty ppl, and there are more in the virtual world..
    there r ppl who keep thrashing other's works (not only photography), and not able to provide reasons..

    Quote Originally Posted by Enchanted View Post
    Having said that, mostly my premium wedding clients are people whom have done their research on my backgrounds and reputation, or knew about my good services for more than a year or more ... These days, i do selection on clients whom i would like to serve or work with ... :

    Art is subjective, but high quality portfolio and hard-earned credential are NOT
    This same rule can apply to critique givers..be selective

    Quote Originally Posted by Enchanted View Post
    What i am proposing is Responsibility!
    Yes..Responsible! is the word..but thats another story le..

    Cheers..
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  5. #185

    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by garou12 View Post
    There's a line between elitism and responsibility. This: "if you are not proven or validate as a proficient photographer or Photo Artist ( in whatever in your specific fields), your critiques on related photo works will be deem less valuable. However, if the Receiver knew the Critique Giver, in person or in private long-term exchanges, then YES, it will be quite valid, due to personal Trust, that built thru fellowship and sharings" has a point. Everyone is entitled to their pov and good critics are people who do their critiques intelligently and responsibly. Saying that someone cannot voice their pov just because they're not good as a photographer themselves reeks of elitism.
    In my view, the only people could validate is either [1] Paying Clients, [2] Photo Professionals, or [3] Pro Art Critiques ( people who does Critiques for a living ).

    Well, a non-professionals can always comments, but not Critique -- that's the difference.

    However, if that same person is paying to have his comments turned into 'Critiques', then you got to make your own judegement to Serve or Not to Serve.

  6. #186
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by yqt View Post
    Yes, and some got more than 1 voice
    You'll Never Walk Alone! - i have the best job in the world!

  7. #187
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    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    wah lao... so many pages... just on culture...

    hehehe... just something to divert...

    my Culture - TCSS - Talk Cork Sing Song...

    Talk - If you need to talk, just talk in peace
    Cork - If you happen to see one, please give way to them...
    Sing - If you have the urge to, then sing along...
    Song - If you are done with everything, just ask yourself... SONG BOH?

    hehehe... i never read the 10 pages... just wonder, simi culture?
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  8. #188
    vince123123
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    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    And now you are saying that just because a client is a paying client, and he critiques your work, his criticism is automatically valid?? This is again flawed reasoning. The only reason why you are accepting his criticism is because he is the one writing your paycheck, and the only reason why you are changing your work is because you want to keep the client. Whether you disagree with or challenge the validity of the criticism is immaterial.

    And since when does the word "critique" has a tag "professional" before it? In the same way, we have non-professisonal photographers and we have professional photographers, we can have professional critique and non-professional critique.

    And why is being a professional photographer mean you are giving good critique? A professional photographer may do nothing but shoot cookie-cutter mass-produced photographs every day for a living - does that make him a qualified person in your book?

    Do reexamine your own criteria and remove yourself from inherent bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enchanted View Post
    In my view, the only people could validate is either [1] Paying Clients, [2] Photo Professionals, or [3] Pro Art Critiques ( people who does Critiques for a living ).

    Well, a non-professionals can always comments, but not Critique -- that's the difference.

    However, if that same person is paying to have his comments turned into 'Critiques', then you got to make your own judegement to Serve or Not to Serve.

  9. #189

    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    I noticed that you are championing very strongly for the need to have qualifications before a critique can be taken seriously (or even suggesting that payment is involved). This is by far a seriously wrong misconception.

    No one is paying anyone to be a critique here. Just because you are a professional photographer doesn't automatically make your criticism valid and worthy. Just because someone does not have any qualifications doesn't make their criticism invalid or unworthy.

    You have given the analogy of portfolio, and professional photgraphers vs hobbyist and who clients will choose - this is again a flawed analogy - we are not talking about client management or marketing here, we are talking abt critcism.

    A critique or debate or argument should be taken based on the substance of that critique, debate or argument. Too much talk about qualifications only detracts from the substance of discussion.

    Even in my chosen field of specialisation, I do not, in an online debate, wave my qualifications and say that I must be correct and you must be wrong just because I am qualified and you are not. We debate/discuss/argue/critique based on substance, and not qualifications.

    As pointed out by another poster, if you make a stupid comment and say "I'm a professional photographer so therefore my comments are valid" - you will only serve to make a fool of yourself.
    Eloquently said.

  10. #190
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    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by nikontiger View Post
    don't put words into my mouth.
    After following the discussion for 3 days, all I see is the thread starter making presumptuous remarks about others, calling names, and putting words in other's mouths.

    The thread starter constantly goes out of topic and sounded like he is trying to pick a fight in most replies.

    When decent opinions were given, they were ignored. When comments with a little hostility were made, he pick it up and harp on it.

    It seem like he is introducing and establishing his "culture" via the thread.

    I think somebody should just close the thread. Enough opinions expressed for any readers to decide what's the culture here.

    If this thread pro-long, we are just allowing sub-cultures to grow. Not healthy

    Then again, it's just my opinion which I am entitled to.

    I do not need to be the devil to be a devil advocate.
    I do not need to be a pro-photographer to critic.

  11. #191

    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    i think i'm late on this thread, but i do believe in something.

    go see more pro images, and be a critic yourself, i.e, shoot, but view your pictures say a week later.

    you'll have a whole new perspective on your own works, and will probably remember the mistakes you've made and grow from there. =)

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    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by nikontiger View Post
    ...Firstly, I've noticed that there are those "self appointed professional critique", who does not post any photos taken by them at all...
    Hmm.... it reminds me of someone whom I'd seen at a particular meetup. He said this to me.

    "Oh u are jsbn ah? Ic, u shoot too? How come I never see u post any photos before?"

    Makes me wonder... Is it a criteria, requirement or...

  13. #193
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    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jsbn View Post
    Hmm.... it reminds me of someone whom I'd seen at a particular meetup. He said this to me.

    "Oh u are jsbn ah? Ic, u shoot too? How come I never see u post any photos before?"

    Makes me wonder... Is it a criteria, requirement or...
    U kena also ar?
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  14. #194
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    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jsbn View Post
    Hmm.... it reminds me of someone whom I'd seen at a particular meetup. He said this to me.

    "Oh u are jsbn ah? Ic, u shoot too? How come I never see u post any photos before?"

    Makes me wonder... Is it a criteria, requirement or...
    then u must tell him, a forum is for ppl to talk..if u wanna see photos go to the gallery..
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  15. #195
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    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Enchanted View Post
    In my view, the only people could validate is either [1] Paying Clients, [2] Photo Professionals, or [3] Pro Art Critiques ( people who does Critiques for a living ).

    Well, a non-professionals can always comments, but not Critique -- that's the difference.

    However, if that same person is paying to have his comments turned into 'Critiques', then you got to make your own judegement to Serve or Not to Serve.
    To those who are uninformed,
    This is ClubSnap.
    The rules and T&Cs here do not state that you have to be a " [1] Paying Clients, [2] Photo Professionals, or [3] Pro Art Critiques ( people who does Critiques for a living ) " in order to give critiques, nor does the rules and T&Cs state that " a non-professionals can always comments, but not Critique ".
    The accepted norm, and this is accepted by the Admins and Mods of ClubSnap, is that you don't need to show any prove of your work in order to give critiques.

    In fact, this is also the norm in many other open, public, online forum.
    Last edited by yqt; 21st June 2007 at 01:43 PM. Reason: typo again
    I get paid more shooting part time ...... damn, I should find more time to shoot part time

  16. #196

    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by yqt View Post
    To those who are uninformed,
    This is ClubSnap.
    The rules and T&Cs here do not state that you have to be a " [1] Paying Clients, [2] Photo Professionals, or [3] Pro Art Critiques ( people who does Critiques for a living ) " in order to give critiques, nor does the rules and T&Cs state that " a non-professionals can always comments, but not Critique ".
    The accepted norm, and this is accepted by the Admins and Mods of ClubSnap, is that you don't need to show any prove of your work in order to give critiques.

    In fact, this is also the norm in many other open, public, online forum.
    yqt, if you can't read and comprehand my words, then please don't quote and abuse it.

    I said "In my view" ... i did not mentioned that my views are expressed by ClubSnap !

    Before you destory yourself in your own foolish and childish behaviour, please stop it.

  17. #197

    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by garou12 View Post
    Everyone is entitled to their pov and good critics are people who do their critiques intelligently and responsibly. Saying that someone cannot voice or even invalidating their pov just because they're not good as a photographer themselves reeks of elitism.

    Yes, i agree.

    Sure, i am not saying only good photographer having the Sole Rights to Critique, but also invitation to people who should be Responsible in giving comments or putting a Critiques, based on ones' merit, experiences or even preferences.

  18. #198
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    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    a friendly reminder

    Play nice!

  19. #199
    vince123123
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    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    It is refreshing to note that still some professional photographers also take the view that qualifications are not required in order to give criticism on photographs, unlike other so called "professionals".

    The only people who wave qualifications about are those who are too insecure about the substance of their own posts and have to fall back on their qualifications in order to even make a half-decent point.



    Quote Originally Posted by yqt View Post
    To those who are uninformed,
    This is ClubSnap.
    The rules and T&Cs here do not state that you have to be a " [1] Paying Clients, [2] Photo Professionals, or [3] Pro Art Critiques ( people who does Critiques for a living ) " in order to give critiques, nor does the rules and T&Cs state that " a non-professionals can always comments, but not Critique ".
    The accepted norm, and this is accepted by the Admins and Mods of ClubSnap, is that you don't need to show any prove of your work in order to give critiques.

    In fact, this is also the norm in many other open, public, online forum.

  20. #200
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    Default Re: What culture is it here??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Enchanted View Post
    yqt, if you can't read and comprehand my words, then please don't quote and abuse it.

    I said "In my view" ... i did not mentioned that my views are expressed by ClubSnap !

    Before you destory yourself in your own foolish and childish behaviour, please stop it.
    My post is directed to " those who are uninformed ".

    I next state that " This is ClubSnap "

    You post what you posted in ClubSnap as your opinion.
    I posted what I did as what is the Rules,T&Cs and the norm in CS.
    My purpose is to draw the attention of the readers here, that your post is your own view and my post is what is the Rules,T&Cs and the norm in CS

    I'm a professional photographer and so are you.
    If you have something aginst me, take it offline, but don't bother to PM me.
    Thank you for your advise not to distory myself, but till date, you're the only one feeling this way and, I find your tone and labelling me as foolish and childish, how should I put it nicely ........ under the belt?
    Anyhow, I'll try not to go down to that level.
    I'm sure by now, everyone here will have their own idea of how they view all who have posted here.
    Perhaps you would want to take a step back and read how others have responded to the postings here, including both yours and mine, and draw your own conclusion.

    Cheers.
    I get paid more shooting part time ...... damn, I should find more time to shoot part time

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