View Poll Results: Can Singapore possible to withstand Imperial Japanese army invasion ?

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  • No, the situation is hopless

    16 45.71%
  • Yes, Singapore can hold up the invasion

    17 48.57%
  • Not Sure

    2 5.71%
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Thread: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

  1. #21
    Senior Member King Tiger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Our Coastal defence gun are also armed with High Explosive and can turn 180 degrees.
    Wonder if it would be a good ground support for the defence of Singapore.


  2. #22
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by redstorm View Post
    The Allied Forces in the Far East didn't get all the priorities where troops, equipment, arms, etc. are concerned. Afterall, the British and its allies were fighting to containing the Nazi which were sweeping thru Europe and waiting to go ashore the British isles. All their resources were channelled towards containing the Nazis and very little were allocated to the Impregnable Fortess (Singapore) which Churchill believed was strong enough to withstand the Japanese onslaught. The allocation of the battleships, Prince of Wales and the Repulse, were the only significant token allocation to the Far East and without air cover they were like sitting ducks. They sunk off the coast of Kuantan under heavy Japanese bombardment.
    do u know why the ships were sunk so easily ?

    becos there was a merchant ship got hold by the Germans in the Indian Ocean. Inside contains all the information of what the British planned to do. The Germans forward the documents to the Japs !

    " ...The plans for the British to defend Singapore fell into the hands of the Axis when the S.S. Automedon was boarded by the German Raider Atlantis in the Indian Ocean, on November 11, 1940. The Germans discovered the documents and sent them to the Japanese.[2]

    Furthermore, Winston Churchill publicly announced that the Prince Of Wales and Repulse were to be sent to Singapore as a deterrent to the Japanese. Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto sent 36 Betty torpedo bombers to reinforce the existing Kanoya Naval Force and Genzan Air Corps, whose pilots began training vigourously for an attack on the two capital ships.[3].."


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking...es_and_Repulse

  3. #23

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tiger View Post
    Should General Percival decide not to give up on 15 Feb 1942, issuing a full-counter attack at all front.

    Follow up by a daring punch thru along the west to retake Jurong Line and the north to retake Woodland perimeter.

    The British might in turn contain the Japanese forces, and in the position to outflank them from their rear at Kranji/Choa Chu Kang.

    The Japanese might not have enough time to withdrawn all their troops back to Johore.

    What do you guys think ? Any possibilities and capacity of the British forces to achieve this ?
    That will only temporarily delay the inevitable, cuz the jap would not leave a strategical position untaken. Also, since their "original" impetus was their economic expansion, Sg occupation would be one of the objectives. This is coupled with the Brits being preoccupied by Nazis, unlikely the Allied forces would commit as much as the Japs. Only really concerned nation then was Australia, cuz the war was heading towards their doorstep.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member King Tiger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    There 1 thing I dun seem to get.. where are those jap fighters that were used to bomb sg stationed? how many were there compared to those reinforcements supplied by allied forces.
    At the begining of the Malaya theatre, they are station at Cambodia/Vietnam.
    During the battle of Singapore, some are station in Malaya.

    During the 1st~2nd day of the Battle of Singapore, there are about 10~15 British planes station at Kallang area.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by raincool2005 View Post
    do u know why the ships were sunk so easily ?

    becos there was a merchant ship got hold by the Germans in the Indian Ocean. Inside contains all the information of what the British planned to do. The Germans forward the documents to the Japs !

    " ...The plans for the British to defend Singapore fell into the hands of the Axis when the S.S. Automedon was boarded by the German Raider Atlantis in the Indian Ocean, on November 11, 1940. The Germans discovered the documents and sent them to the Japanese.[2]

    Furthermore, Winston Churchill publicly announced that the Prince Of Wales and Repulse were to be sent to Singapore as a deterrent to the Japanese. Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto sent 36 Betty torpedo bombers to reinforce the existing Kanoya Naval Force and Genzan Air Corps, whose pilots began training vigourously for an attack on the two capital ships.[3].."


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking...es_and_Repulse
    From what I think, the info leak is not as significant as the below 2 points.

    Strategically, the Brits have no idea on the disposition of the Jap forces and warfare tactics.

    Tactically, it's sever underestimation on the Jap's military capability to send to ships without air coverage. Especially so when it was publicly announced that they are sent as deterrent.

    Lastly, when plans falls into enemy hands... it's time to change plan and NOT stick to it.
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tiger View Post
    Should General Percival decide not to give up on 15 Feb 1942, issuing a full-counter attack at all front.

    Follow up by a daring punch thru along the west to retake Jurong Line and the north to retake Woodland perimeter.

    The British might in turn contain the Japanese forces, and in the position to outflank them from their rear at Kranji/Choa Chu Kang.

    The Japanese might not have enough time to withdrawn all their troops back to Johore.

    What do you guys think ? Any possibilities and capacity of the British forces to achieve this ?
    Well, had he done so, I think the Allied FOrces could have pushed the Japs back in a counter attack masterstroke. Pushing the Jap back into Johor would only give the Allied Forces relief, albeilt a temporary one. But, with proper rest, replenishment of more elite troops and supplies, while the Allied Forces, who were badly trained and lacking in experience, were not given much support, the Japanese could mount a concerted assault which could see Singapore capitulating. Given these circumstances, it was only a matter of when Singapore would be captured by the Japs.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tiger View Post
    At the begining of the Malaya theatre, they are station at Cambodia/Vietnam.
    During the battle of Singapore, some are station in Malaya.

    During the 1st~2nd day of the Battle of Singapore, there are about 10~15 British planes station at Kallang area.
    And I believe the planes were technically inferior to the Jap's Zero fighters and as well as out numbered by at least 5 to 1.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member King Tiger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by redstorm View Post
    The allocation of the battleships, Prince of Wales and the Repulse, were the only significant token allocation to the Far East and without air cover they were like sitting ducks. They sunk off the coast of Kuantan under heavy Japanese bombardment.
    Hi redstorm,
    Actually, there is one more allocation.

    HMS Indomitable - it is British latest aircraft carrier with an armoured flight deck design,
    as compare to wooden flight deck design of Akagi, Kaga or USS Enterprise.
    Schedule to join Force Z, along with HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse, however, she
    ran aground on a coral reef near Jamica.
    She returned back to service soon after repairs but this short delay proved fatal for British plans for Singapore. Had it been original schedule that Indomitable was to join HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse in the port of Singapore as part of a deterrent force, together with the airgroup of Hurricane for aircovers, things might go different.





    Last edited by King Tiger; 14th June 2007 at 10:49 PM.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    There was a Brit officer who spied for the Japs whose name still remains classified today. He's probably one of the reasons that Yamashita was able to "bluff".

    There was also records that Percival turned down a Royal Engineer Corp Officer's request to set up defenses to avoid "demoralising the public".

    Worst of all, the Brits stretched their defenses thinly as opposed to Napoleon's dictum of concentrating one's forces & then to be in a central position to be better able to meet & destroy the enemies from any direction before any junction can take place.
    hasta la justicia siempre

  10. #30
    Senior Member King Tiger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    And I believe the planes were technically inferior to the Jap's Zero fighters and as well as out numbered by at least 5 to 1.
    Well CYRN, I totally agree with this.

  11. #31
    Senior Member King Tiger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis247 View Post
    I casted my vote as a hopeless situation.
    Very much that I hope that Singapore can hold the invasion in 1942 but let us look from all possible perspective.

    Singapore is surrounded by sea and there is no way out, no road to retreat, hence enemy can attack us from all round. The way out is via all round defense to hold our ground.
    If we are to do an all-round defense, there are air-strike and artillery to take out any defense line. At the same time, the Jap air planes can strike our mainland with bombs and crippling our lines.

    Even if we are to hold, we need to outlast the Japs appetitie for war or another way is to "围魏救赵" which means we need alliance forces to attack the Jap at their home country. But at that time, America, British, Russia and France are facing another front in Germany hence this is not possible.

    This situation is quite hopeless at that time.

    The Strategy of 围魏救赵

    When the enemy is too strong to be attacked directly, then attack something he holds dear. Know that in all things he cannot be superior. Somewhere there is a gap in the armour, a weakness that can be attacked instead.

    The origins of this proverb is from the Warring States Period. The state of Wi attacked Zhao and laid siege to its capital Handan. Zho turned to Q for help, but the Q general Sun Bin determined it would be unwise to meet the army of Wi head on, so he instead attacked their capital at Daliang. The army of Wi retreated in haste, and they were ambushed and defeated at the Battle of Guiling, with the Wi general Pang Juan slain on the field.
    Well said, Francis247.

    OT abit. Recently, I bought a DVD about the Qin Army during the Warring States.
    There is talks on 围 魏 救 赵 too.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by cmeptb72 View Post
    There was a Brit officer who spied for the Japs whose name still remains classified today. He's probably one of the reasons that Yamashita was able to "bluff".

    There was also records that Percival turned down a Royal Engineer Corp Officer's request to set up defenses to avoid "demoralising the public".

    Worst of all, the Brits stretched their defenses thinly as opposed to Napoleon's dictum of concentrating one's forces & then to be in a central position to be better able to meet & destroy the enemies from any direction before any junction can take place.
    actually i agree with the Royal Engineer Corp officer... n it was best to stick together, creating a bigger vision as a force... rather than a thin line, once the japs break thru each of the thin defence line, they will grow in confidence... n the allied forces will be sian...


    been in a big group, of course not together to die... but together to fight, gives more advantages... as well as some disadvantages...
    Simple Is Beautiful...

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    It's a hopeless situation.

    When you got no strategic depth to withdraw, you are facing the same possible fate of the 7th calvary...

  14. #34

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tiger View Post
    Well CYRN, I totally agree with this.

    Well, in that case. Jap already holds air-superiority. While a "new" military concept at that time, it clearly shows the situation regardless of what Percival does.

    Than again, where did you get the info about HMS Indomitable. If she were to be around then, there might be a different outcome as it's possible to hold on.

    But then again, who knows that if the Japs would proceed with the Pacific theater or would concentrate their resources in SE.Asia where situation would be a stalemate since it would be easier to defend Singapore but unlikely for Allied forces to take back Malaya... Which then (in an alternate universe) they would not engage the Americans in Pearl Harbour... we might now in the 21st century still be under Imperial rule.
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  15. #35
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Not really actually. The japanese zero fighters are superior in almost every way compared to the hurricane.

    I doubted the presence of the indomitable would have made much of a difference.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tiger View Post
    Our Coastal defence gun are also armed with High Explosive and can turn 180 degrees.
    Wonder if it would be a good ground support for the defence of Singapore.
    Mmm... I am not sure if my memory of history serves me right. But not all of them are able to turn 180. And with the perceived seaward threat, only two of the large calibre guns were pointed north

  17. #37

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yatlapball View Post
    Not really actually. The japanese zero fighters are superior in almost every way compared to the hurricane.

    I doubted the presence of the indomitable would have made much of a difference.
    Actually, this is the first time I heard Indomitable supposed to be involved. While the hurricane is inferior, they can prove a boon in preventing Prince of Wales and the Repulse from being sunk (so early) and deter the landing of Japs reinforcement in Malaya. The supply chain from Cambodia through Thailand would be stretched very thin.
    Last edited by CYRN; 14th June 2007 at 11:22 PM.
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  18. #38

    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    The British lost because of over reliance on Sentosa's defences which were incidentally pointing the wrong way. The also underestimated the Japanese overland attack, they never expected the Japanese would be able to push through Malaysia down to Singapore so quickly on bicycles. No one also expected the Thais to give shelter to the Japanese in return for their own safety, you can say the Thais stabbed us all in the back. Finally the whites had no fighting spirit and were not ready to defend Singapore. Unlike local volunteers who stayed and fight, the british and australians were retreating along the way.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    Actually, this is the first time I heard Indomitable supposed to be involved. While the hurricane is inferior, they can prove a boon in preventing Prince of Wales and the Repulse from being sunk (so early) and deter the landing of Japs reinforcement in Malaya. The supply chain from Cambodia through Thailand would be stretched very thin.
    if i am the British... i will wack first into southern thailand... giving the excuse i am being hit at the borders..

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Military Discussion : Battle of Singapore (Feb 1942)

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tiger View Post
    Hi zac08, actually during the period of Jan and Feb, the Allies do reinforce divisons from Australia and planes from Sumatra and India.

    Reinforcement only stop when Singapore surrender.
    Planes? Those flying coffins? Vs the Zero fighters??

    There were never any allied tanks in the region. No mining efforts, nor were there any good anti tank weapons in the region. IIRC, the army was plinking rifle rounds against those tanks.

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