Epson R-D1 : To be Discontinued....

[AK00™]

Just got news that Epson has decided to stop production of their first and only Epson R-D1(s).

Posted on a german website: http://www.photoscala.de/node/3246

Translation:

Quote: Epson seems to stop producing cameras: the R-D1 will stop being produced as far as we know: Once so badly wanted, but today a bit outdated, the R-D1s (6MP, 2000 euro) based on a Bessa body made by Cosina, seems to near its end. According to our information current stock of the camera will be sold, but new ones will not be produced. If and when Epson will produce a digicam again, is a matter of speculation. At the moment we do not know of a successor. We will keep ourselves informed, have asked Epson Germany about this, and they told us they will ask Epson Japan. We expect their answer by the end of the week.

This is really sad....are they not doing well?

[paisatge]

I guess that now with the Leica M8, people would tend to go for that instead of the R-D1.

But who knows, they are making ways for R-D2

[chiif]

Sometimes it is hard to anticipate what the manufacturers are doing. Looking at the current trend, Canon & Nikon are dominating the digital camera industry. I really really do hope someone will produce a successor to R-D1s.

Epson is tight lip about this. No one seem to know whether the successor is coming up. When I asked Cosina marketing manager whether they are making anymore bodies for Epson, he just told me that the initial 10000 bodies & shutters were the only ones they made for Epson. No news on another digital RF.

BUT.... I heard from someone... not in Epson... but in the camera industry... that the R-D2 is coming up.

On the recent Photo & Imaging Exhibition in Japan, Epson displayed the R-D1s in their pretty large booth and seems to be marketing it. From what I see, if it is a product to be obsolete, they would not have put it up on the booth and placed 4 bodies as demo sets.

There are still a few new pieces lying around in Japan. I believe it will be snap up pretty soon... just like the XPAN.

Even if a new R-D2 is coming up, I believe it will be priced in the region of 350,000 yen, which put it at about SGD4500. At SGD2900 for a new R-D1s now, I think it's still going to be a steal.

These are just speculation. Please don't quote me and nothing is official.

It would be very nice if Nikon come up with their RF Nikon S digital

[Tetrode]

Sad news indeed.

I compared it with the M8 in Japan and was very impressed by the R-D1. I'd rather have it over the M8 from a user POV.

If only it had been cheaper, I think Epson would have sold more of them.

[ST1100]

Originally Posted by Tetrode Sad news indeed. I compared it with the M8 in Japan and was very impressed by the R-D1. I'd rather have it over the M8 from a user POV. If only it had been cheaper, I think Epson would have sold more of them.

Hi Tetrode, do you mind explaining why you would prefer the RD1 over the M8? Thanx. Anyone with the same sentiment, pls feel free to chip in.

[Tetrode]

Originally Posted by ST1100 Hi Tetrode, do you mind explaining why you would prefer the RD1 over the M8? Thanx. Anyone with the same sentiment, pls feel free to chip in.

The one thing that won me over was the lever advance on the Epson. The M8 doesn't give you the film camera feel the Epson does as the M8 lacks the lever advance. Both are equally well made(Leica fans will dispute this of course).

Both will become hopelessly obsolete one day or wear out (being all electronic). While both can accept the same kinds of lenses (M-mount), I see little to no point in paying so much more for the Leica unless you a Leica-phile or collector (I see no point in collecting a digital camera).

The advantages that film RF Leicas had over other film RFs (primarily the Cosina Voightlanders) were build quality, the buttery feel of the wind lever, a slightly more accurate RF and the quiet cloth shutter. These are non-existent in the M8. So what are you paying the premium for? The Leica badge?

[chiif]

Personally, I feel that a tool that is well made, deserves recognition. Both R-D1s and M8 falls into this catagory and each have their strength. They are created for the non-mass market.

M8 has a certain charm and it carries the tradition of the Leica M bodies. Once held on the hands, one immediately will feel very comfortable if he has been using the M bodies before. R-D1 did something very different and won the hearts of 10000 photographers (as the initial production run). Hardly anyone will find analog dials on digital cameras. Hardly anyone need to wind the lever to **** the shutter to fire. Well, like the apple mcintosh, they have done things differently.

The only sad part about this is the mass market is not yet ready for such funky sexy products. Not many people will spend about USD2000 on a digital camera. That's alot of money for the general mass. And even fewer people will want to spend USD4500 on the M8, knowing that it's just another digital body. BUT to a professional photographer, USD4500 for a tool to earn an annual income of USD100,000 (estimate lah), that's pretty reasonable. Well, a camera means different thing to different people. And we have to respect those people who love to collect cameras as they help the general public to preserve these beautiful beast so that our children, grand children 50 years later will still know how a camera in the year 2007 look like. No one will know whether the M8 will withstand the age of time and maybe after a CLA it will still perform like a charm 50 years later. Who knows?

It's really really hard to compare the 2 beautiful cameras. And personally, I don't think it would be fair to judge that these 2 cameras would have sold better if the manufacturer or distributor lower their price. There is a reason why a product is priced as such. The technology built into M8 is not any simple technology that can be easily implemented on any digital camera. Technically, it's very difficult to build a sensor so close to the lens without any visible distortion. The business mode today has made it very difficult for companies with small R&D muscle to survive and grow. Hence, for a non-camera manufacturing company, Epson, has indeed done something almost impossible by coming out the R-D1 in the business world today.

Honestly speaking, for those who are still contemplating whether to get into digital RF.... look at the 2 camera bodies as a tool. If you need it to create beautiful pictures fast and easy... instant gratification, go and get one now. If your budget allows you to stretch and you really cannot survive with a 1.5 crop, then get a M8. If you're on a slightly tighter budget and don't mind 1.5 crop, get the R-D1s before it becomes extinct. If you only have the budget of a Nikon D40x and still want to join the RF club, then stay with film, get my R4M. And best of all... IT'S FULL FRAME!

[paisatge]

Originally Posted by chiif Honestly speaking, for those who are still contemplating whether to get into digital RF.... look at the 2 camera bodies as a tool. If you need it to create beautiful pictures fast and easy... instant gratification, go and get one now. If your budget allows you to stretch and you really cannot survive with a 1.5 crop, then get a M8. If you're on a slightly tighter budget and don't mind 1.5 crop, get the R-D1s before it becomes extinct. If you only have the budget of a Nikon D40x and still want to join the RF club, then stay with film, get my R4M. And best of all... IT'S FULL FRAME!

I mind the 1.5x factor and don't have the budget and want digital.

[Tetrode]

Originally Posted by chiif Personally, I feel that a tool that is well made, deserves recognition. Both R-D1s and M8 falls into this catagory and each have their strength. They are created for the non-mass market. M8 has a certain charm and it carries the tradition of the Leica M bodies. Once held on the hands, one immediately will feel very comfortable if he has been using the M bodies before. R-D1 did something very different and won the hearts of 10000 photographers (as the initial production run). Hardly anyone will find analog dials on digital cameras. Hardly anyone need to wind the lever to **** the shutter to fire. Well, like the apple mcintosh, they have done things differently. The only sad part about this is the mass market is not yet ready for such funky sexy products. Not many people will spend about USD2000 on a digital camera. That's alot of money for the general mass. And even fewer people will want to spend USD4500 on the M8, knowing that it's just another digital body. BUT to a professional photographer, USD4500 for a tool to earn an annual income of USD100,000 (estimate lah), that's pretty reasonable. Well, a camera means different thing to different people. And we have to respect those people who love to collect cameras as they help the general public to preserve these beautiful beast so that our children, grand children 50 years later will still know how a camera in the year 2007 look like. No one will know whether the M8 will withstand the age of time and maybe after a CLA it will still perform like a charm 50 years later. Who knows? It's really really hard to compare the 2 beautiful cameras. And personally, I don't think it would be fair to judge that these 2 cameras would have sold better if the manufacturer or distributor lower their price. There is a reason why a product is priced as such. The technology built into M8 is not any simple technology that can be easily implemented on any digital camera. Technically, it's very difficult to build a sensor so close to the lens without any visible distortion. The business mode today has made it very difficult for companies with small R&D muscle to survive and grow. Hence, for a non-camera manufacturing company, Epson, has indeed done something almost impossible by coming out the R-D1 in the business world today. Honestly speaking, for those who are still contemplating whether to get into digital RF.... look at the 2 camera bodies as a tool. If you need it to create beautiful pictures fast and easy... instant gratification, go and get one now. If your budget allows you to stretch and you really cannot survive with a 1.5 crop, then get a M8. If you're on a slightly tighter budget and don't mind 1.5 crop, get the R-D1s before it becomes extinct. If you only have the budget of a Nikon D40x and still want to join the RF club, then stay with film, get my R4M. And best of all... IT'S FULL FRAME!

USD2000 is only part of the equation, you have to factor in the cost lenses as well. Not a cheap proposition even with Cosina Voigtlander lenses.

Had Leica put lever wind frame advance on the M8, I wouldn't knock it as much. As it is, I feel it is more of a over glorified and expensive digital PnS. It is not as fun to use as the Epson is.

[Ansel]

Originally Posted by chiif ..... If you only have the budget of a Nikon D40x and still want to join the RF club, then stay with film, get my R4M. And best of all... IT'S FULL FRAME!

This is actually quite true. All it takes is some slight inconvenience, as follows:

Shoot colour neg film --- $4.00/roll
Develop and scan to 16 base (6 megapix equivalent)--- $12.00/roll maybe less.

Total cost per roll is 4.00+12.00=$16.00

What you have is a CD with 36+ images of 6 megapix equivalent quality digital file, full frame somemore. Plus you got negatives as backup.

$1000 will buy you 62 rolls of film shooting. For amateurs/hobbyists like most of us here, 62 rolls is a lot of film. Your digital RF will easily depreciate this much in one year.

[Tetrode]

Originally Posted by Ansel This is actually quite true. All it takes is some slight inconvenience, as follows: Shoot colour neg film --- $4.00/roll Develop and scan to 16 base (6 megapix equivalent)--- $12.00/roll maybe less. Total cost per roll is 4.00+12.00=$16.00 What you have is a CD with 36+ images of 6 megapix equivalent quality digital file, full frame somemore. Plus you got negatives as backup. $1000 will buy you 62 rolls of film shooting. For amateurs/hobbyists like most of us here, 62 rolls is a lot of film. Your digital RF will easily depreciate this much in one year.

Agreed - and I have mentioned this several times before (albeit not as comprehensively as you have) on this very forum. But it has fallen on deaf ears.

[ifirdauzi]

Originally Posted by Ansel This is actually quite true. All it takes is some slight inconvenience, as follows: Shoot colour neg film --- $4.00/roll Develop and scan to 16 base (6 megapix equivalent)--- $12.00/roll maybe less. Total cost per roll is 4.00+12.00=$16.00 What you have is a CD with 36+ images of 6 megapix equivalent quality digital file, full frame somemore. Plus you got negatives as backup. $1000 will buy you 62 rolls of film shooting. For amateurs/hobbyists like most of us here, 62 rolls is a lot of film. Your digital RF will easily depreciate this much in one year.

here is the number in IDR,
Lucky SHD 100 BW: 7k IDR/Roll
Scanner Canon 4200F: 1.2 M IDR
AP tank+2 rolls: 125K IDR
developer: MicroMF 3.5K IDR/Liter for 2 rolls
fixer: Acifix 3.5K IDR/4 rolls
Thermometer: 29K IDR
stopwatch: 75K IDR
1 liter plastic jug with mililiter scale: 5K
watching your negatives under the lamp - priceless!

[ricohflex]

Originally Posted by Tetrode The one thing that won me over was the lever advance on the Epson. The M8 doesn't give you the film camera feel the Epson does as the M8 lacks the lever advance. Both are equally well made(Leica fans will dispute this of course). Both will become hopelessly obsolete one day or wear out (being all electronic). While both can accept the same kinds of lenses (M-mount), I see little to no point in paying so much more for the Leica unless you a Leica-phile or collector (I see no point in collecting a digital camera). The advantages that film RF Leicas had over other film RFs (primarily the Cosina Voightlanders) were build quality, the buttery feel of the wind lever, a slightly more accurate RF and the quiet cloth shutter. These are non-existent in the M8. So what are you paying the premium for? The Leica badge?

Good analysis.

[pai]

Originally Posted by Tetrode Had Leica put lever wind frame advance on the M8, I wouldn't knock it as much. As it is, I feel it is more of a over glorified and expensive digital PnS. It is not as fun to use as the Epson is.

never handled either camera, so i'm especially curious - what does the film advance lever do on the epson? is it necessary? or do you like it precisely because it is unnecessary but helps replicate the film experience?

[tomcat]

Originally Posted by pai never handled either camera, so i'm especially curious - what does the film advance lever do on the epson? is it necessary? or do you like it precisely because it is unnecessary but helps replicate the film experience?

The lever 'winds' or reset the shutter curtain for the next exposure just like that in a non-powered film camera. So it replicates the experience of handling a non-powered film camera... as well as the disadvantage of using one if you are used to not having to manually wind your shutter with battery powered film cameras. I have a tendency to forget to wind the lever and so that can be irritating when I find that I cannot shoot when I wanted to and loses the moment.

[pai]

thanks. so since there's no film and the shutter is electronic, that means the epson doesn't actually need the lever lah. it's a gesture to film rf users who are used to cocking the shutter after every shot, sort of like how the m8 still must remove base plate to load sd card.

[Tetrode]

Originally Posted by pai never handled either camera, so i'm especially curious - what does the film advance lever do on the epson? is it necessary? or do you like it precisely because it is unnecessary but helps replicate the film experience?

It isn't necessary, it not only replicates the film experience but it lends a sort of balance to the camera.

The RF experience isn't about shooting like you are using a motorised SLR. It is slow, determined shooting, the lever doesn't allow you to forget what it should be all about.

.

[pai]

interesting take. thanks.

[chiif]

The winding mechanism is necessary in the R-D1s, it's not for romantic reason only. It does not have a motor to set the shutter to the fire position before the shutter is release, as pointed out by Tomcat. Just like the traditional manual cameras, the winding not only winds the film forward, it also set the curtain so that it is ready to be fired for the next shot. Cosina made the body and the shutter mechanism for the R-D1s, which is pretty similar to the Bessa series.

M8 has an internal motor that set the shutter curtain every shot is fired, that's why it did not need to have the winding mechanism.

[clubgrit]

Indeed ...

Well, the costs depend on what we use, I definitely spend much more using, developing, and printing film than if I just use a DSLR (unlike those who find shooting with film cheaper). But the enjoyment and struggles I get from film and processing are priceless .

As for digital, the lure of a digital rangefinder is not strong enough for me with what is on offer now, even used ... I'll stick with a $1K++ Nikon or Canon kit

Originally Posted by ifirdauzi here is the number in IDR, Lucky SHD 100 BW: 7k IDR/Roll Scanner Canon 4200F: 1.2 M IDR AP tank+2 rolls: 125K IDR developer: MicroMF 3.5K IDR/Liter for 2 rolls fixer: Acifix 3.5K IDR/4 rolls Thermometer: 29K IDR stopwatch: 75K IDR 1 liter plastic jug with mililiter scale: 5K watching your negatives under the lamp - priceless!