Prosumers: The Short and Long

[night86mare]

At behest from zoosh; he’s done quite a lot of service to all of us here at Clubsnap; I benefited from his Newbie DSLR Help thread and I think the man deserves quite some respect for doing a job where there is no perceivable return in terms of monetary terms; so I thought I’d also take the opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks. I’m sure the rest of Clubsnap feels the same too.

I think a brief write-up on prosumers from ANYONE on the whole is long due; every now and then you get a guy popping up asking DSLR versus prosumer? Which should I go? And the old arguments just pop up again.

Always remember this; DSLR or prosumer, a camera will only take pictures (good or bad aside) if you use it. If you buy either, and take no pictures, you might as well save your cash.

A little background on my prosumer usage: I bought my Sony Cybershot H2 on Clubsnap in Jan 2007, and sold it recently in Clubsnap as well. While I have only had prosumer experience per se with the H2, before I bought I did quite a bit of reading up online, as well as hands-on with the various prosumer cams at shops before I made my buy, for financial reasons. But without further ado lest I bore you:

[night86mare]

A prosumer camera has no real definition, to be honest. Just as its name suggests, it is the intermediate range of cameras between a consumer compact camera and a “professional” camera, i.e. DSLR; something in between to satisfy the person who wishes to get more control over his photographic experience.

There are also no real set features as to what a “prosumer” is, as far as I am concerned, it is something trying to imitate either a rangefinder style or a DSLR-style, but it is not a true rangefinder or DSLR.

Prosumer cameras are not necessarily more expensive than consumer cameras. A lot of them can be cheaper than newly released upper end models for the true blue consumer market.

I would divide prosumer cameras into 2 main types: one which seems to try to emulate a rangefinder, and the other which tries to emulate a DSLR with a long zoom lens fixed onto it.

Most popular brands would have a prosumer model in one way or another; common examples of prosumer camera models (current and near-current, prosumer as assumed by the general consumer market) would be:

Canon SX IS series
SX IS picture thread
S3 IS and S5 IS are the newest models in the lineup, with S5 IS being the latest. Long zoom type.
S3 IS specs on DP Review
S5 IS specs on DP review

Canon GX series
G9 is the latest model in the lineup. Digital rangefinder type.
G7 specs on DP Review
G9 specs on DP Review

Sony HX
Sony HX series picture thread
Sony H50/10/3/7/9 are the newest models in the lineup, with H50/10 being the latest. Long zoom type.
H7 specs on DP Review
H9 specs on DP Review
H3 specs on DP Review
H10 specs on DP Review
H50 specs on DP Review

Panasonic FZX/FZXX
FZ7/8/30/50/18 are the newest models in the lineup, with FZ18 and FZ50 being the latest. Long zoom type.
FZ7 specs on DP Review
FZ8 specs on DP Review
FZ30 specs on DP Review
FZ50 specs on DP Review
FZ18 specs on DP Review

Fujifilm XXXX series
S100fs and S1000fd are the newest models in the lineup.
S8100fd on DP Review
S8000fd on DP Review
S1000fd specs on DP Review
S100fs specs on DP Review


Other not-so-common prosumers
Ricoh Digital GR/GX100 (something like that)
Olympus SP-550
Nikon Coolpix XXXX series – Nikon has not released any new prosumer models
Sigma DP1

Some brands also have prosumers, like Leica, but few people use them so I will not bother to write anything on them.

[night86mare]

This section will be largely from personal experience, and will be largely based on a personal view. I will try to be as objective as possible, however, so forgive me if I fail.

I can only list down some main factors why a person would want a prosumer, from my perspective. After all, the list is not exhaustive and there are special considerations which happen at particular scenarios which I probably would not have encountered or heard of.

1) Price – value for money

Simply put, the start-up cost of a prosumer is way lower than that of a DSLR, though the lines blur with DSLRs getting cheaper by the minute. Previously DSLRs were thought impossible to be sub-$1000. Today you have a few varieties, complete with 1 or 2 kit lens in a package. How attractive!

So – many people will happily tell you: get a entry level DSLR! It is going to give you superior image quality (true in most cases) and is going to make you take better pictures which will leave you more satisfied (NOT true in only 80,000 ways).

Why will I caution you not to listen to that when keeping cost in mind? A DSLR has much more maintenance required, as I quickly found out when I got mine:

-dry box: I may be generalizing here but most P&S (point and shoot cameras, referring to prosumer AND consumer cameras) do not really require dry box so long as you wipe them down properly after bringing them out, probably in wet weather. A DSLR is not sealed up because you have to change lens, etc. Which brings us to the next point

-dust: Many people forget this big ugly word in the DSLR world when they jump in. And after that they panic big time when they see funny alien objects/spots on their pictures. Dust is a common problem to all DSLRs except possibly the Olympus brand (due to their godlike Supersonic Wave Filter anti-dust machine), it is not some new fangled technological jargon but is what it says: dust. Now, while dust is easily processed away in Photoshop, most people would usually want to get rid of it unless you like waving your Healing Brush tool around a lot and wasting a lot of time. This means sensor swabs (expensive if you use the popular brand VisibleDust), sensor brushes (expensive once again) and cleaning fluids. Or service centre (servicing costs range from anywhere around $20 to $50) for the technicians to do that for you.

Prosumers have no such problem unless you get a lemon (i.e. something which has not been manufactured properly under clean conditions). This will be covered under the warranty more often than not though.

-shutter maintenance: I am not too sure about this because I have not encountered it yet, but apparently a DSLR has to replace its shutter after a certain set amount of shots. Entry level DSLRs, I hear, usually have to get their shutters replaced after 10K(?) shots. This is not a set value but you still have to pay about $100+ for the shutter replacement for entry level DSLRs, and possibly more for higher level DSLRs. This does not include servicing charges, and is significant money.

-BBB (Buy buy buy) syndrome: As stupid as it sounds, when you have a DSLR, you tend to want to buy more things. More lenses. New fangled tools. Flash units. You get the idea. Well, while you can have the same problem with prosumer, I maintain that the tendency for the BBB virus to take over your life is going to be a lot lesser, for whatever reason. For one thing, there is a lot less to buy for a prosumer compared to DSLR. You can count on that.

Other than that, prosumers are really value for money. A lot of the models on the market include Image Stabilisation – this is also available on DSLR, but for the more popular brands like Canon and Nikon, you WILL NOT get Image Stabilisation in-body, and have to pay premium prices for Image-Stabilised lenses.

In some sense, for the price you pay for prosumers, you get a small tight package full of features. Other than IS another point I can think of is macro capability – for DSLR you’d need to purchase macro lenses if you wish to take macro and all that, but some prosumers have excellent macro capabilities! So cost effectiveness is maximized in prosumers, in short.

2) Maintenance and hassle

I have been told that a prosumer tends to be sturdier than a DSLR – more resistant to weather (due to the sealed up factor – though this is not true for some of the more expensive DSLRs with weather seals, etc) and potential dropping. Not that all of us are butterfingers and clumsy, but I have dropped my consumer Canon A540 before, and it survived in pretty good shape. I do not have such faith for dropping my DSLR.

Other than that, sensor cleaning for DSLR, either at home (if you’re up to it) or at servicing centre takes time no matter what you say. Among other things, such as well, checking out reviews for new lenses, flash units, etc. (This is linked to the BBB syndrome mentioned in 1)


3) Size and weight

When I first laid my hands on my friend’s 20D I was blown away by the weight and size. It was a lot larger than I thought. DSLRs are significantly heavier, and larger than prosumers – though the difference is less for smaller DSLRs like Canon 350D/400D and Pentax K100D versus the larger prosumers.

Some people prefer the lightness and relative compactness of a prosumer to a DSLR, and I can see why too. A prosumer is going to be less conspicuous, even for the long zoom models, to be honest.

4) Unsureness of interest in photography

For a prosumer, most of them have very variable zoom ranges. You get telephoto and wide, you get to try everything for a simple price. Not convinced of this? Some people will argue that with the holiday type lens of today (Sigma 18-200, for example), a DSLR with holiday lens combination is affordable; let’s put it this way:

Most second-hand DSLRs at entry level (based on Clubsnap B&S thread trends) sell at about $600 – and that’s already optimism at work. Most large range of zoom type lenses sell at maybe $450. And anyone here can tell you that that is seriously, seriously even more optimistic. That’s $1050 at the very least. To be fair, let’s compare this to a second-hand prosumer, which costs $400-$500 on average. Double the price – you can see for yourself.

If you use the first hand argument, then $800 thereabouts (for a grey Pentax K100D) + $590 thereabouts for 18-200 would set you back almost $1400. A new prosumer costs maybe $600-$700. Almost double once again.

So what is my point? For people unsure that they want to do this photography thing long term – and they should think carefully too, in my honest opinion, since a camera sitting around doing nothing is going to be nothing but a blatant waste of money.. A prosumer should be a better choice. Less burn on the pocket. Devaluation if you decide to sell, is proportional for both – the 2 paragraphs above this one prove that even if you sell second-hand DSLR versus second-hand prosumer the loss is still very much the same, contrary to what DSLR-pushers would tell you.

5) Image quality and freedom in photography

Prosumer image quality tends to be better than the normal consumer camera, due to the type of market the manufacturers are targeting. The sensors do not offer much on top of consumer cameras, that is to be sure, but the optics tends to be able to handle whatever zoom range the prosumer camera offers. Many prosumer cameras employ good brand optics – Sony uses Carl Zeiss on its prosumers, for example; Panasonic uses Leica.

As for freedom, prosumer cameras have many more modes than your standard consumer camera (the higher end ones with more manual focused functions do not count), such as the standard P (program), A (aperture priority), S (shutter speed priority), M (manual) modes occur.

Freedom is less so these days, since even the Powershot A series is coming up with M mode, but the built-in flash on most prosumers are superior to what consumer cameras have, for range and effect; and you definitely will find it hard to find a 12x zoom range on a standard consumer camera.

There are many more factors, but this are the 4 main points that I can see. So based on these 4 factors, a few examples of people who should go prosumer (and maybe move on to DSLR or just stay with prosumer) would include:

a) Students with no steady source of income and with limited funding
b) Beginners to photography who are tight on budget
c) Photographers who have been bitten by the bug using a consumer camera and finding a need for more control and freedom, but not so ready to go into DSLR yet
d) People who like to keep it simple and less hassle

[night86mare]

See the previous post about why DSLRs require a lot more commitment and effort and money compared to prosumers. That should cover a lot of this section, actually.

That is pretty major already; other than that, in short:

If you are into photography, and know some of the basics (aperture settings, shutter speed, ISO, DOF) and have read up, and are itching to try out more advanced functions than what a consumer camera can offer you, go for a prosumer if you’re not ready for DSLR. You will know when you are ready for DSLR.

DSLR vs prosumer has been largely discussed in Clubsnap, some say that you lose money if you jump from consumer to prosumer to DSLR; the counterargument would be then that if you jump from consumer to DSLR direct and give up photography altogether – highly likely especially for individuals who have not actually read up on photography proper and are thinking that prosumers/DSLRs will make them more pro (?! The thought, indeed) find out sorely that they are very much wrong. I have listed quite a number of points why you should go prosumer instead of DSLR for certain scenarios, so this section will actually be more on the cons of prosumer versus DSLR, since pros of prosumer over DSLR has been covered earlier, along with pros of prosumer over consumer.

I’ll touch briefly on the limited cons for prosumer versus consumer, namely size/weight – a prosumer camera will be larger (especially the long zoom models) and heavier slightly than consumer models after all. This is with the assumption that you are actually interested in photography and need to make the move up to prosumer from consumer. Therefore the other moot points (moot in my opinion, that is) like conspicuousness should not count.

Cons of prosumer VS DSLR

1) Image quality usually inferior in most situations: why?
a. Sensor quality and noise
DSLR cameras have a APS-C sized sensor most of the time, i.e. the sensor size is larger. This means less noise most of the time, along with better image quality. The only exception I can see here would be Fujifilm’s 6500fd, which gives good noise performance up to ISO 1600, apparently.

Most prosumer cameras cannot be used above ISO 200. In fact, even at ISO 200 I would not accept the quality of the pictures already for my H2.

2) Inferior optics
Don’t get me wrong, the lenses used on prosumers are often excellent, but due to the long zoom range included in most prosumer cameras (10x to 15x), this means that optical quality would naturally be lower. There is some long-winded explanation with regards to lens elements and all that jazz which is rather technical, so to cut a long story short: most lenses with an expanded zoom range will not be as good as lenses with short zoom range.

Now, this does not mean that prosumers cannot outperform DSLR lenses in terms of optical quality, there are also lens quality issue for DSLR lenses, and the prosumers on the market today use pretty good quality lenses. But if you pay the right price for DSLR lenses, and do not demand funny stuff like extended zoom range, DSLR optics (even on kit lens) often outperform prosumer.

3) Versatility

Obviously while prosumers are a step up in terms of control from consumer cams, they are no match for DSLRs – this is across the board. Bulb mode, a wider range of usable ISOs, minimum apertures (maximum apertures quite comparable, from what I see unless you pay big bucks) are usually stuck at f/8.0, fixed focal length range, limited shutter speed range would be some of the examples of how DSLRs have an edge over prosumers in the aspect.

4) Build and handling

Most prosumers are plasticky to the feel, and you would not be wrong when you feel that way – they ARE plastic. Some of them will have finishes which detract from this feeling, but the weight of prosumers tend to be feather-light compared to a DSLR, and I must admit after trying both that DSLRs feel a lot better to use, despite the additional weight, it somehow feels more at home in your hands.

Most DSLR lenses also use manual zoom, whereas most prosumer cameras use a rocker switch (there are exceptions, like the Fujifilm series and Panny FZXX series). This allows for some room for creativity in terms of zoom blur in real life (not Photoshop) and of course, precision.

5) Through the Lens (TTL) Viewfinder versus Electronic Viewfinder (EVF)

There are pros and cons for this point, but more cons for EVF than TTL, I find. EVF tends to be problematic in broad daylight, even if you switch to the LCD preview on prosumers you still suffer from glare most of the time. EVF for some brands also tends to lag. Resolution will not compare to TTL.

I think those are the broad strokes. Moving on.

[night86mare]

(short list of pros and cons)

Now, this is what I have seen and experienced, if you want a proper in-depth comparison, I will provide links to review sites for the individual prosumer cameras which are available currently. These review sites would be largely Imaging Resource (IR) and DP Review. They are excellent review sites, so I will not use other sites, not too sure about them.

I will only do this for Canon S series, Sony H series, Fujifilm XXXX series, Panasonic FZX series and Olympus SP-550. Have not researched the rest. Please note that these generalizations will include my personal demands for a prosumer, so it is BEST that you read the review sites and decide what you want. It is also good to go down to the shop to have a hands-on feel, you have no obligation whatsoever to buy after all.

Just keep this in mind – most of the models listed here are good, I will not state explicitly my stand on what to buy, because each camera has its strengths and flaws, so learning how to make the most out of the strengths while limiting clashing with its flaws is key to making full use of your prosumer.

Canon S3/S5 IS
S3 IS Review, DP Review
S3 IS Review, Imaging Resource
S5 IS Review, DP Review
-Image Stabilisation available, works well
-good all-rounder performer
-S5 IS can use hotshoe flash (S3 cannot, however)
-0 cm macro capability, can focus very close
-tilting LCD, good for weird angle shots
-uses 4AA batteries, while AA portability is good, 4 is not good in my book
-usual problem of poor noise performance after a certain level, IIRC ISO 200 is still usable: noise is easily correctable because processing on-cam is not overly aggressive
-no RAW

Sony H7/9/10/50
H9 Review, DP Review
H2 Review, Imaging Resource
H7 Review, DP Review
H5 Review, Imaging Resource
H3 Review, DP Review
H9 Review, Imaging Resource
H10 Review, DP Review

-Image Stabilisation available, works well
-fast autofocus, hunts in low light though
-insists on using Sony Memory Stick, expensive media
-good, fast Electronic Viewfinder
-strong built-in flash
-excellent digital zoom, usable if desperate
- usual problem of poor noise performance after a certain level, IIRC ISO 200 is still usable: noise is easily correctable because processing on-cam is not overly aggressive
-no RAW
- some models seem to have overdone JPG compression, leading to artefacts and inferior Image Quality

Fujifilm S1000fd/S100fs/8100fd/8000fd
S100fs Review, DP Review
S8000fd Review, DP Review

-uses manual zoom, close to SLR feel
-28mm wide angle available
-good noise performance, usable up to ISO 800
-slow EVF refresh rate, might miss good shots if you’re shooting action
-S100fs can shoot in RAW
-expensive for the higher end models

Panasonic FZ8/18
FZ8 Review, DP Review
FZ8 Preview, Imaging Resource
FZ18 Review, DP Review

-excellent IS, best of the bunch
-low noise at higher ISOs, but this is NOT good, gives poor image quality due to overly done noise reduction in-camera
-FZ8 can shoot in RAW
-excellent Leica lens, sharp
-which is undermined by the poor Panasonic processor at times
-uses Li-on battery, which is good because of good battery life, but this can be bad if you need replacements, spares are expensive compared to rechargeable AA NiMH

Panasonic FZ30/50
FZ30 Review, DP Review
FZ50 Review, DP Review
[url=http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/FZ30/FZ30A.HTM]FZ30 Review, Imaging Resource
FZ50 Review, Imaging Resource

-uses manual zoom, close to SLR feel
-can use hotshoe flash
-mostly same as FZ7/8 as above

Olympus SP-550 UZ
SP-550 Review, DP Review
SP-550 Preview, Imaging Resource
-amazing 18x zoom range
-28mm wide angle end
-good IS
-RAW mode
-soft images common complaint among most users
-slow file writing
-focus errors

[night86mare]

Finally the last section, this took a lot longer than I thought because I kept adding on.. =D

So when do you move on to a DSLR from a prosumer? The answer is clear – only you would know. If you want a DSLR up from a prosumer, for whatever reason.. When the time comes, believe me you would really know.

But anyways, just in case some people are not sure whether they should move on – just look at the DSLR versus prosumer plus point section, and that should provide you with some idea.

In short, people usually move on to DSLR from prosumer, not because prosumer sucks. I do not need to post my H2 pictures to show you what a prosumer can do, mainly because I do not want to appear like I’m trying to boost my ego or sell a H2, you can look at all the above picture threads to know that.

The main reason, would be that a time comes when you decide that the camera is limiting you, not the other way round. That’s when you move on; when you decide that f/8.0 is not a small enough shutter speed; when you decide that you need higher ISOs without fear of getting too much noise and PP work, the list is non-exhuastive, so I’ll leave it at this.

[night86mare]

Please feel free to share anything relating to Prosumers here, if you wish. Stuff that I've left out, errors, etc.

I'm quite sure I've left out quite a number of things. =) So let's all help zoosh out!

[Rashkae]

Let's not forget the Canon G-series, as well as the Sony F, R and V series.

Also, a good prosumer will produce images that, when printed out, can be very difficult to tell from a pro DSLR. The moonrise shot I took, where the moon was rising over a wind-swept snowy mountain, has elicited a lot of questions, most assuming I took it using a very big, expensive lens and high-end DSLR. I took it, hand-held, on a Sony H1.

[night86mare]

Originally Posted by Rashkae Let's not forget the Canon G-series, as well as the Sony F, R and V series. Also, a good prosumer will produce images that, when printed out, can be very difficult to tell from a pro DSLR. The moonrise shot I took, where the moon was rising over a wind-swept snowy mountain, has elicited a lot of questions, most assuming I took it using a very big, expensive lens and high-end DSLR. I took it, hand-held, on a Sony H1.

I know nothing much about those. Someone who's played with them care to do a short writeup? Those are more like rangefinder imitators, I think. =D

[Peterpan00]

Wow! Night86mare, you have provided a very comprehensive overview. Good job!

[Rashkae]

Originally Posted by night86mare I know nothing much about those. Someone who's played with them care to do a short writeup? Those are more like rangefinder imitators, I think. =D

The Sony V and Canon G series, as well as the Nikon prosumers, are rangefinder designs, yup! The Sony F and R series are more unique and DSLR-like.

I've owned quite a few of them, and still own a Sony V3 and R1.

[Ghuka]

Great effort and initiative. Thanks !

[LazerLordz]

Good write-up from the TS.

This was shot on a 3.1MP Fuji S5000, a 4 year old prosumer.


Note that you can get decent depth-of-field and with the requisite close-up filters, achieve a decent macro clarity as well. Color tone is due to my graduated filter, and is not representative of the camera.

For beginners, it's cheaper than going down the DSLR route and having to fork out an arm and a leg for macro lenses.

Here's another image which is normal in tones.

[night86mare]

Yes - from what I've heard from various people, all the typical "modifiers" that can be attached onto lens, like Raynox type macro lens kits, close-up filters, etc.. Seem to work better on prosumers as well, hrm.

[Yapster]

Well done, night86mare~ And i am sure a lot of people will appreciate your effort and time~ Just as how they and i appreciate zoossh effort~

[night86mare]

Thanks all, appreciation is appreciated.. =)

If I have the time I might do a short writeup on sunrises and sunsets - the only subject I have confidence in photography to write on, I suppose. =D

[ah.zeep]

Originally Posted by night86mare Thanks all, appreciation is appreciated.. =) If I have the time I might do a short writeup on sunrises and sunsets - the only subject I have confidence in photography to write on, I suppose. =D

Great writeup here, and I will be looking forward to the sunrise/sunset writeups with bated breath

[zoossh]

Originally Posted by night86mare Thanks all, appreciation is appreciated.. =) If I have the time I might do a short writeup on sunrises and sunsets - the only subject I have confidence in photography to write on, I suppose. =D

let me know when done. i'll put into the newbie thread too.

[vengels]

hi hi..

juz wanna clear some doubts..

i am looking to buy a prosumer camera..

was at a shop today and the salesman told me this about the Panasonic FZ8..
"it has an optical zoom of 12x.. but can zoom further if you buy a tube and attach another lense to it.."

is what he said true?.. if it is.. wat "tube" and lense is he talking about?..
never come across this yet in the forum.. and he cldnt ans my question as well..
dunno how true..

also..
he said that using a fuji camera no need for the use of the "tube"..
juz attach the lense to it..

he is talking crap or is there any truth in it?

[night86mare]

Originally Posted by vengels hi hi.. juz wanna clear some doubts.. i am looking to buy a prosumer camera.. was at a shop today and the salesman told me this about the Panasonic FZ8.. "it has an optical zoom of 12x.. but can zoom further if you buy a tube and attach another lense to it.." is what he said true?.. if it is.. wat "tube" and lense is he talking about?.. never come across this yet in the forum.. and he cldnt ans my question as well.. dunno how true.. also.. he said that using a fuji camera no need for the use of the "tube".. juz attach the lense to it.. he is talking crap or is there any truth in it?

Hahaha. Ok, I'm not exactly familiar with the Panny or Fujifilm series usage with regards to accessories, but I -think- this is the situation.

Now: there are these nifty tools called teleconverters. These come in usually 1.4x or 2x, if I'm not wrong - they extend the focal length of your lens by the factor they come in. For example, if the longest end of your prosumer is say, 420 mm in 35mm terms, then it'd become 840 mm (correct me if I'm wrong, people, I've never used teleconverters before so all this is from whatever I've read) equivalent if you use a 2x. Can google the term to find out more about them, in more detail. Sorry to say I do not have much experience with them, but these are definitely the "lenses" (though they are not really lenses per se, more like accessories) that your salesman was talking about.

There are sacrifices to be made if you use teleconverters though.. I think loss of light - thereby requiring a much longer exposure than is needed, is certain.. As well as increase in DOF, the reason for which I'm not sure.

As for Panny versus Fujifilm - he probably means that the Panny needs an adaptor tube to attach your teleconverter to, whereas for the Fujifilm the teleconverter can be attached right away, either because the camera's built-in lens is built to accomodate such accessories already, or Fujifilm has included an adaptor tube in the standard package.

Hope this answers your queries, and thanks for bringing it up. =)

Wikipedia link on Teleconverters