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Thread: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

  1. #41
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    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    I will reject it.
    The pilot's main premise is that the A380 is a bigger plane and so they have to be paid more.
    It is outrageous.

    The premise is not whether they are now overall getting lower pay than other airline pilots.

    Look, the company paid a lot for the new plane for the pilot to fly.
    And he wants to company to pay him more just because it is a bigger plane?

    Think of the Garuda and Adam Air pilots. It seems they have to make do and somehow safely fly an old plane that may have maintenance problems.

    If this silly money grubbing sideshow succeeds, then....

    The next time your boss gives all the staff new souped up latest PC with 300GB harddisk with the best software, you will insist to be paid more?

    If the boss changes his car from a Hyundai Sonata to a Rolls Royce, the chauffeur can demand to be paid more?

    If the SAF upgrades from AMX13 to Leopard 2 tank, the tankies will demand steep pay rise?

    The restaurant owner spends millions to buy spanking new high grade kitchen equipment and his chefs then demand to be paid more?

    Your company boss moves the office from Woodlands Industrial estate to 50th sty penthouse at No 1 Shenton Way and you say, wah...now must pay you more because have to work in this newer and better office.

    Your photo company boss upgrades from the company equipment Canon 300D to Canon 1DS Mk III and you immediately demand to be paid more, because the new equipment is more complicated and difficult to use.
    Last edited by ricohflex; 28th April 2007 at 10:26 AM.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricohflex View Post
    I will reject it.
    The pilot's main premise is that the A380 is a bigger plane and so they have to be paid more.
    It is outrageous.

    The premise is not whether they are now overall getting lower pay than other airline pilots.

    Look, the company paid a lot for the new plane for the pilot to fly.
    And he wants to company to pay him more just because it is a bigger plane?

    Think of the Garuda and Adam Air pilots. It seems they have to make do and somehow safely fly an old plane that may have maintenance problems.

    If this silly money grubbing sideshow succeeds, then....

    The next time your boss gives all the staff new souped up latest PC with 300GB harddisk with the best software, you will insist to be paid more?

    If the boss changes his car from a Hyundai Sonata to a Rolls Royce, the chauffeur can demand to be paid more?

    If the SAF upgrades from AMX13 to Leopard 2 tank, the tankies will demand steep pay rise?

    The restaurant owner spends millions to buy spanking new high grade kitchen equipment and his chefs then demand to be paid more?

    Your company boss moves the office from Woodlands Industrial estate to 50th sty penthouse at No 1 Shenton Way and you say, wah...now must pay you more because have to work in this newer and better office.

    Your photo company boss upgrades from the company equipment Canon 300D to Canon 1DS Mk III and you immediately demand to be paid more, because the new equipment is more complicated and difficult to use.
    The context of the pilots' claim is more along the lines of: Company now wants the pilots to drive Double-decker bus that carries 100 passengers, up from the regular bus that carries 75 passengers. Not about getting spanking new equipment.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by monokydni View Post
    The context of the pilots' claim is more along the lines of: Company now wants the pilots to drive Double-decker bus that carries 100 passengers, up from the regular bus that carries 75 passengers. Not about getting spanking new equipment.
    not a good comparison. bus driver can stop the bus anytime if in trouble, for pilot up in the air, heheee, cannot stop one hor...

    if they use along the lines of how the ministers' pay were justified, wonder how will be the 'judgement' would turn out to be

  4. #44
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    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricohflex View Post
    Think of the Garuda and Adam Air pilots. It seems they have to make do and somehow safely fly an old plane that may have maintenance problems.

    If this silly money grubbing sideshow succeeds, then....

    The next time your boss gives all the staff new souped up latest PC with 300GB harddisk with the best software, you will insist to be paid more?

    If the boss changes his car from a Hyundai Sonata to a Rolls Royce, the chauffeur can demand to be paid more?

    If the SAF upgrades from AMX13 to Leopard 2 tank, the tankies will demand steep pay rise?
    i think you're missing the point here. pilots are paid not so much to operate the machinery but because they are taking responsibility for lives in the air. Air crashes are uniformly fatal. If your new 300GB harddisk crash still can replace; 400+ lives cannot be replaced. Piloting an aircraft requires perfection, as one mistake can cost many lives. What the pilots are fighting for is that they train hard to maintain a consistent record of incident free flying and take upon themselves hundreds of lives at their hands.

    If not we might as well have computers to fly planes and drive buses. The question is who will be there to rectify any problem and take charge when something goes wrong.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Well actually you can view this from another angle. It is in the pilot's self-interest to keep himself alive (i.e. the plane keeps flying) is it not? Same goes for a driver of a bus. Or any other job that has other people's lives hinged on yours.

    We actually have more automated systems flying your aeroplane now then you think. So what are you talking about? Gone are the days of "flying the stick". Although yes, I will admit that ultimately in a disaster, it will come back round to the human factor to regain control. But, see point mentioned above. Whether the plane is empty or full of passengers, it is in the pilot's self-interest to keep himself alive.

  6. #46

    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    The airline industry is very competitive. If they don't control cost, low cost carriers will be very threatening.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Responsibility for lives reside with bus drivers, ship captains, army 3 tonner drivers, etc...

    It is a given. And that responsibility is the same whether the plane is carrying 1 or 200 or 300 passengers.

    The pilots think solely of themselves only and forgot or ignored that actually, the fact the plane flies safely through the air is the combined result of TEAMWORK.
    From the designer of the plane, to its manufacturers, safety inspectors, SIA engineering division to maintain the planes, ground crew, airline cabin crew, navigators, air traffic controllers of various countries, airport operation staff.

    The TEAMWORK even extends to the sales staff at SIA who market the airline. Because if zero passengers are willing to pay to fly on the airline, it has no reason to even take off from the airport.
    Last edited by ricohflex; 28th April 2007 at 12:57 PM.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeowww View Post
    not a good comparison. bus driver can stop the bus anytime if in trouble, for pilot up in the air, heheee, cannot stop one hor...

    if they use along the lines of how the ministers' pay were justified, wonder how will be the 'judgement' would turn out to be
    Well, depends if there are any contest, since no contest, what do you think is justifiable?

    So likewise for the pilots, there is a contest, and they deem it non justified, then not justified lor... its not what you do or say here that will ever change the course of nature.
    Logging Off. "You have 2,631 messages stored, of a total 400 allowed." don't PM me.

  9. #49

    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricohflex View Post
    Responsibility for lives reside with bus drivers, ship captains, army 3 tonner drivers, etc...

    It is a given. And that responsibility is the same whether the plane is carrying 1 or 200 or 300 passengers.

    The pilots think solely of themselves only and forgot or ignored that actually, the fact the plane flies safely through the air is the combined result of TEAMWORK.
    From the designer of the plane, to its manufacturers, safety inspectors, SIA engineering division to maintain the planes, ground crew, airline cabin crew, navigators, air traffic controllers of various countries, airport operation staff.

    The TEAMWORK even extends to the sales staff at SIA who market the airline. Because if zero passengers are willing to pay to fly on the airline, it has no reason to even take off from the airport.


    I know the pill is very difficult to swallow, but once you relate it to ous leader's, this pay bills will become peanuts.



    We all also get contibute hor, and also make sacrifies leh.
    Last edited by Silence Sky; 28th April 2007 at 01:24 PM.

  10. #50

    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricohflex View Post
    Responsibility for lives reside with bus drivers, ship captains, army 3 tonner drivers, etc...

    It is a given. And that responsibility is the same whether the plane is carrying 1 or 200 or 300 passengers.

    The pilots think solely of themselves only and forgot or ignored that actually, the fact the plane flies safely through the air is the combined result of TEAMWORK.
    From the designer of the plane, to its manufacturers, safety inspectors, SIA engineering division to maintain the planes, ground crew, airline cabin crew, navigators, air traffic controllers of various countries, airport operation staff.

    The TEAMWORK even extends to the sales staff at SIA who market the airline. Because if zero passengers are willing to pay to fly on the airline, it has no reason to even take off from the airport.
    According to our old man theory:

    A380 cost $300,000,000.
    You pay a pilot $240,000 annually to operate the machine.
    That is just 0.0008% of the price and I have not included the price of cargos and the stake of lifes on board.
    Do you want to pay $20,000 a year and get a bus driver to fly the A380 for you?

    These pilots are talents, they are like CEOs of MNC. When they are in the air, they are at helm. They dertemine whether you can reach your correct destination alive or dead. In order to stir them away from becoming the terriost, we must pay them above their market values.

  11. #51

    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeowww View Post
    not a good comparison. bus driver can stop the bus anytime if in trouble, for pilot up in the air, heheee, cannot stop one hor...

    if they use along the lines of how the ministers' pay were justified, wonder how will be the 'judgement' would turn out to be
    According to the record of last round negotation, this round someone will have to be exiled.

  12. #52

    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by allsmilez View Post
    i think you're missing the point here. pilots are paid not so much to operate the machinery but because they are taking responsibility for lives in the air. Air crashes are uniformly fatal. If your new 300GB harddisk crash still can replace; 400+ lives cannot be replaced. Piloting an aircraft requires perfection, as one mistake can cost many lives. What the pilots are fighting for is that they train hard to maintain a consistent record of incident free flying and take upon themselves hundreds of lives at their hands.

    If not we might as well have computers to fly planes and drive buses. The question is who will be there to rectify any problem and take charge when something goes wrong.
    If our goverment failed, at most we eat bread and become maid.
    But if a Pilot fails, we don't need to eat bread and become maid anymore.
    Last edited by Silence Sky; 28th April 2007 at 02:21 PM.

  13. #53

    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by westclox View Post
    The airline industry is very competitive. If they don't control cost, low cost carriers will be very threatening.
    Control costs is for old economy. If we emphasis too much on cost control, one day SIA will become budget airline liao.

    What we must do is expand our market shares and increase our revenue.
    We don't need to pay millions to the top man to do cost control.
    You pay me $5,000 to sit there and you can cut alot of cost liao.

  14. #54

    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Why bigger mean more pay.

    If and aircraft have a problem from Singapore to London. You would have about 15-20 Major airport with good weather to put the airplane down during emergency. However with a huge aircraft like A380 it would reduce the number of airport to about 3-5 because most of the airport can't handle A380. If you put one A380 down it would shutdown the Airport. These would increase the stress level for the pilot because they have to extended the time they are in air and with the problem at hand. How would you explain to company when you land the aircraft in a airport and the aircraft have to be scraped because it can't takeoff from the airport.

    When you put 30 people in a small room what the odd that they will quarrel and create trouble? if you increase the number from 30 to 500 likely the odds will increase. Being a pilot it not just flying the aircraft you have to be incharge of both the safety of the aircraft and your passenger.

    Human will make an error at some point of time. If you made an error during your work hopefully a sorry will be able get you out of it else move over to another company. However in aviation making one would probably end your carrer or worst case your life.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Responsibility for lives reside with bus drivers, ship captains, army 3 tonner drivers, etc...

    In the above form of transport all of them have one thing in common. All of them can move backward with their own power. Try moving an aircraft backward in air you will know what it mean to fly and subsonic speed. Average speed of an aircraft is around 480 knots roughly around 750 km/h.

  16. #56

    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Tickets ... $2K

    A380 ... $300M

    300+ passangers lives and SIA reputation ... priceless




    but then again, except for emergencies, the planes could almost fly themselves.
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  17. #57

    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN View Post
    Tickets ... $2K

    A380 ... $300M

    300+ passangers lives and SIA reputation ... priceless




    but then again, except for emergencies, the planes could almost fly themselves.


    Again then, we pay all our army Generals generously well during peace time.
    Not battle proven at all. The most precarious missions they have gone through are peace keeing in East Timor.
    But it is proven that some have big bellies and failed IPPT. Some even have fairer complexion than those FHM Girls.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence Sky View Post


    Again then, we pay all our army Generals generously well during peace time.
    Not battle proven at all. The most precarious missions they have gone through are peace keeing in East Timor.
    But it is proven that some have big bellies and failed IPPT. Some even have fairer complexion than those FHM Girls.
    No wonder some of those FHM gals look like army generals. You think they moonlight a little bit while in peace time?

  19. #59
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    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Might be opportunist move by the pilots.
    So SIA can apply the market forces.
    No increase in pay.
    Those not happy can leave SIA immediately to fly A380 for other airlines.
    The rest of the pilots who remain can be trained to fly the A380.

    New pilots who are employed have a clause in contract to say they will fly A380 if required at no extra pay.

    Once this batch is ready to fly the A380, immediately terminate services of all the pilots who insist to be paid more in this current arbitration.


    Or... if the pilots want to base pay strictly on passenger head count in the plane.
    Then SIA agrees.

    But since the pilots have chosen to live by the sword, they must also die by the sword.
    The sword they have insisted on, has two sharp edges.
    It cuts both ways.

    (start of edit)
    This arrangement should not be retrospective.
    It should start from implementation now and in future.

    Basically, the A380 pilots are saying although they are flying the same ONE plane, it is not the same. The plane is bigger, with more passengers and more cargo.

    The solution is to give them what they want.

    The A380 being the largest plane, will be the reference 100% standard for passenger and cargo load, say P number of passengers and C tonnes of cargo. Say, they fly (x) number of flights per month and are paid $y per month.

    SIA will check over the period of any month, all the passenger and cargo load on flights made by any SIA pilot.

    So if any SIA pilot flies (x) number of flights on a smaller plane with smaller passenger and cargo load, his monthly pay will be proportionally reduced, based on the A380 theoretical 100% maximum.

    This will apply to any other SIA pilot.

    Similarly, a pilot's bonus at the end of the year will be adjusted downwards accordingly from the theoretical maximum.

    (end of edit)
    Last edited by ricohflex; 29th April 2007 at 05:02 PM.

  20. #60

    Default Re: SIA's latest offer in A380-pilot wage dispute rejected.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricohflex View Post
    Might be opportunist move by the pilots.
    Possible. But more probable that it is an "inspired" move from certain recent pay rises

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