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Thread: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

  1. #41

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by pai View Post
    i can see you have bit of faith in efficiency and good intentions. that's not a bad thing. just make sure you constantly re-evaluate, don't let that faith be blind.
    Fact is, the system is not wrong.

    It is wrong in that it assumes that humans are perfect, that they will be objective, that university degrees actually represent a proper landmark with regards to the training of the mind.

    Unfortunately it is not the case. Flattery works for certain bosses. Everyone has their key. And thus the system fails.

    The same can be applied for many things in life, don't you think? Be it something as simple as affection, or something as complicated (logic wise) as communism.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Gentlemen,

    I have stated before that any matter related to the issue of the revision of civil servant's pay will not be entertained here. I would however, make a exception for this thread simply because it has not degraded into a free for all and not gone OT.

    I respect the fact that everyone is actually discussing this issue properly without resorting to name calling or people bashing.

    I sincerely hope that this continues but please be reminded that i will not hesitate to close this thread should things start getting personal or if it goes too far off topic.

    Thank you.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    To link your example back to the topic, lets say we have a Nikon D2x (DSLRA) and XYZ brand D100 equivalent. We can clearly see who has more potential (D2x and who has better brand - your analogy). However, if your D2x keeps screwing up your shot, bad image, file corrupt etc, yes it has greater potential (more MP, faster frame rate etc), will you still keep using it? Or will you use the XYZ brand D100, which may have less potential, but CONSISTENTLY gives good results, within its capability. In fact, over time, XYZ brand D100 may even give you overall better satisfaction.
    Well, I guess what most people would do is to sell the D2X to another unsuspecting person who perceives that it has high potential. Then retain XYZ brand for the dirty work!

    i.e. transfer the "potential" and retain the "workhorse" - and keep promising workhorse that "one day" he will be promoted...."XYZ, keep performing and one day you will become a Nikon D2X....."

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    Education:

    The other day someone brought up the idea that education was not all about papers. It should never be. Even if one has the paper that says he passed this exam or not.. In the end education comes to what one has LEARNT and whether that person can use what he has LEARNT to THINK, i.e. application.

    But DP, think about it, you KNOW the person. Your HR department doesn't. Neither does every single employer in the market. What do they have to base it on? Therein lies the power of the boss to do what he thinks he is right. And well, if the boss is wrong, then that's life. In short.

    Which is why Singapore needs its papers. It is the most.. I hesitate to say "accurate", because it isn't.. concrete? way of proving that one has been capable of thinking.
    i think it depends on the job scope. U do need some paper qualification to give an indication of your capabilities. An extreme example i can think of for DP's case is one of a chinese sinseh..

    He may be treating patient for 20 years with impeccable records using TCM, but if he apply to work in a hospital, i guess they gotta make sure he has the certificate or degree to proves that he can understand western medicine.

    Also, if it's hiring of fresh grads, grades are probably a good starting point as they prob has no prior work experience. If i am hiring, i'll look at whether they worked part time, ECA/CCA and their mannerism etc.

    My viewpoint is i bear no bones to civil servant getting their jobs in the 1st place. In fact, i knew that top students wont be civil service. (prob top 5% will be in private sector, 50% of the next 10% will be in civil service) They just need to make sure there's some form of check and balances that the good staffs are retained and not passed on merely because they are competing with Scholars.

    Of course, since they have already invested so much in these Scholars, you knew that and the scholars knew that they can get by with much more than what others can.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    Fact is, the system is not wrong.

    It is wrong in that it assumes that humans are perfect, that they will be objective, that university degrees actually represent a proper landmark with regards to the training of the mind.
    heehee, so is the system wrong or is it not wrong?

    ok lah, whether the system fails because it is wrong, or it isn't but fails because humans are imperfect... if it's not working as well as it should, then maybe it's time to tweak it, or even change it.

    i *personally* feel, from what i've heard from ppl inside, even those doing ok, that the pay and promotions are based a little too much on things like grades and tenure, which are acting as poor substitute measures for competency and experience. actually not just the civil service lah, my own workplace also.

    ok, when hiring, maybe one or two interviews isn't enough time. but a whole year... several years working with someone...

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    This [scholar = work potential] argument is the most leaky and unteneble hypothesis in the world.
    We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. - Oscar Wilde

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang View Post
    Gentlemen,

    I have stated before that any matter related to the issue of the revision of civil servant's pay will not be entertained here. I would however, make a exception for this thread simply because it has not degraded into a free for all and not gone OT.

    I respect the fact that everyone is actually discussing this issue properly without resorting to name calling or people bashing.

    I sincerely hope that this continues but please be reminded that i will not hesitate to close this thread should things start getting personal or if it goes too far off topic.

    Thank you.
    hehe... trying hard to control ourselves... anyway, no amount of kopitiam talk is going to change things.. except to raise awareness of certain things.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    nothing is fair in this world.

    People say promotion based on educational qualifications is not good.

    I feel it is at least better than those bootlickers getting promoted. Common you see that all the time, build good relationship with boss, but work wise terrible.

    At least the scholar got his scholarship through HARD WORK or BRAINS. I mean if for the earlier half of your life, you cannot spend the effort or have the ability to accomplish the Primary goal (education) what makes you think that you can do better in a real life job?

    Example, my and two other friend got rejected from NUS medicine faculty, not because of our grades or performance, but rather due to a 10minute interview..... Is that better?

    I am not complaining as I am terrified of blood but this just goes to show nothing is "fair" when it comes to selection.
    Last edited by wind30; 18th April 2007 at 04:48 PM.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by wind30 View Post
    nothing is fair in this world.

    People say promotion based on educational qualifications is not good.

    I feel it is at least better than those bootlickers getting promoted. Common you see that all the time, build good relationship with boss, but work wise terrible.

    At least the scholar got his scholarship through HARD WORK or BRAINS. I mean if for the earlier half of your life, you cannot spend the effort or have the ability to accomplish the Primary goal (education) what makes you think that you can do better in a real life job?

    Example, my and two other friend got rejected from NUS medicine faculty, not because of our grades or performance, but rather due to a 10minute interview..... Is that better?

    I am not complaining as I am terrified of blood but this just goes to show nothing is "fair" when it comes to selection.
    So, what you are saying is, replace a bad system with another failed system.

    I have no idea what you did in your interview that lost you a place in to medical school, but that is life. So, you advocate acceptance to med school strictly on grades? Without regards to anything else? You might be accepted and you admitted that you would not be a good candidate.

    Back to the side topic of education qualification over anything else. Singapore is absolutely a society that place way too high an emphasis on a piece of paper. This create a false elite hierachy. Is this what you want?

    I say, the onlhy fair evaluation and reward system is to reward you for what you are currently achieving. Who cares what you did 10 years ago! Or even, 5 years ago. Those accomplishment are irrevelent to today!
    deadpoet
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  10. #50

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by pai View Post
    heehee, so is the system wrong or is it not wrong?

    ok lah, whether the system fails because it is wrong, or it isn't but fails because humans are imperfect... if it's not working as well as it should, then maybe it's time to tweak it, or even change it.

    i *personally* feel, from what i've heard from ppl inside, even those doing ok, that the pay and promotions are based a little too much on things like grades and tenure, which are acting as poor substitute measures for competency and experience. actually not just the civil service lah, my own workplace also.

    ok, when hiring, maybe one or two interviews isn't enough time. but a whole year... several years working with someone...
    Whatever works best at that point in time is the thing you can use. For every minute change you will actually incur an advantage and also incur a disadvantage. Marginal benefits/losses. And all that jazz.

    Perhaps you could tighten it up until there is minimal exploitation, and most freedom of human involvement is taken away,

    But I cannot bring to mind any system which has no flaws. That doesn't mean we can't improve it, but we have to be objective - and see whether it is indeed so simple to just change to our other Utopian scenario. What makes you think there was no Utopian scenario on their side in the first place?

    The other time espion told me that planning is limited, and I agree. You plan, and plan, last minute Murphy's Law hits and you're three strikes out. What is more important is how to adapt, when to adapt, and why you adapt. =)

  11. #51

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet View Post
    So, what you are saying is, replace a bad system with another failed system.

    I have no idea what you did in your interview that lost you a place in to medical school, but that is life. So, you advocate acceptance to med school strictly on grades? Without regards to anything else? You might be accepted and you admitted that you would not be a good candidate.

    Back to the side topic of education qualification over anything else. Singapore is absolutely a society that place way too high an emphasis on a piece of paper. This create a false elite hierachy. Is this what you want?
    just a little anecdote, I had a nice conversation with a heart surgeon in the US who actually said that they should go out and find people with compassion and then teach them the technical skills to become doctors, rather than give rigid testing to find doctors.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis32 View Post
    hehe... trying hard to control ourselves... anyway, no amount of kopitiam talk is going to change things.. except to raise awareness of certain things.
    btw I didn't know about this article until I read it in kopitiam...so kudos for these things in kopitiam.
    awareness is sometimes more than enough

  12. #52

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by wind30 View Post
    Example, my and two other friend got rejected from NUS medicine faculty, not because of our grades or performance, but rather due to a 10minute interview..... Is that better?
    I don't know how they select people.

    I mean, yes, I got in, but after learning the variety of people who got in (especially some particular characters from my JC).. It was a relatively painless task of rejecting my lifelong dream.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    just a little anecdote, I had a nice conversation with a heart surgeon in the US who actually said that they should go out and find people with compassion and then teach them the technical skills to become doctors, rather than give rigid testing to find doctors.
    That is also flawed. If you have compassion but not the necessary "bravado" or mentality or intelligence (yes, there is a lot to remember, sadly, whether you are a GP or not)..

    That is not enough to be a doctor.

    The saddest part is that there is no real way to measure all these, so we must make do with what we must, and select with limited tests.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    just a little anecdote, I had a nice conversation with a heart surgeon in the US who actually said that they should go out and find people with compassion and then teach them the technical skills to become doctors, rather than give rigid testing to find doctors.
    Yes, they should. Nowadays, some patients are called "customers" instead of patients.....

  15. #55

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    That is also flawed. If you have compassion but not the necessary "bravado" or mentality or intelligence (yes, there is a lot to remember, sadly, whether you are a GP or not)..

    That is not enough to be a doctor.

    The saddest part is that there is no real way to measure all these, so we must make do with what we must, and select with limited tests.
    of course lah. I'm not saying any tom dick or harry should be a doctor
    but considering that a lot of my peers who went into medicine did so because it was supposed to earn them the most money, instead of being for more high-minded ideals, irritates me.

    tests are a mechanical way of judging people, human interaction, interviews, etc, are good ways to gauge a person's ""bravado" or mentality or intelligence"

  16. #56

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock View Post
    of course lah. I'm not saying any tom dick or harry should be a doctor
    but considering that a lot of my peers who went into medicine did so because it was supposed to earn them the most money, instead of being for more high-minded ideals, irritates me.

    tests are a mechanical way of judging people, human interaction, interviews, etc, are good ways to gauge a person's ""bravado" or mentality or intelligence"
    True. I share your sentiments for the people I know. Well, some, not all. There are those who really wanted in for the "perks" of the profession, i.e. the rush, the joy of healing, etc, but didn't get accepted. And those who just wanted the $$ and prestige, but got accepted.

    Yes, human interaction and interviews are supposedly good ways to gauge all that, but..

    Think about it. You could live with person A for 20 years, and still not know him inside-out. What good is a 10 minute, or heck, even 30 minute interview going to do? =)

  17. #57
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    So is the alternative NOT to have ANY interview?

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    Think about it. You could live with person A for 20 years, and still not know him inside-out. What good is a 10 minute, or heck, even 30 minute interview going to do? =)

  18. #58

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    So is the alternative NOT to have ANY interview?
    No, there is no real solution since you can never really judge a person 100% effectively.

    But we must always remember this. There are some things in life are not perfect or 100% efficient/effective, you can't do anything about it, but we can take measures before we are proven and reminded about this.

  19. #59
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Yes, so interviews are here to stay.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    No, there is no real solution since you can never really judge a person 100% effectively.

    But we must always remember this. There are some things in life are not perfect or 100% efficient/effective, you can't do anything about it, but we can take measures before we are proven and reminded about this.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet View Post
    So, what you are saying is, replace a bad system with another failed system.

    I have no idea what you did in your interview that lost you a place in to medical school, but that is life. So, you advocate acceptance to med school strictly on grades? Without regards to anything else? You might be accepted and you admitted that you would not be a good candidate.

    Back to the side topic of education qualification over anything else. Singapore is absolutely a society that place way too high an emphasis on a piece of paper. This create a false elite hierachy. Is this what you want?

    I say, the onlhy fair evaluation and reward system is to reward you for what you are currently achieving. Who cares what you did 10 years ago! Or even, 5 years ago. Those accomplishment are irrevelent to today!
    Trust me, I see the people they select for doctors, might as well save the time and let the best go in base on merit. Although I agree I am not suited for doctor, but I feel my friend who was rejected is REALLY suited for doctor. He is one of the most responsible and filial friends I have. In the end, he took up chem eng in Imperial college and Phd in MIT. And still he felt bitter over the medical selection process.

    As to fair evaluation and reward system, how do you know if the guy getting rewarded is not due to bootlicking? I mean he could be an idiot in school, get all Ds, come to work, bootlick the boss until happy happy so boss says GOOD PERFORMANCE at work...

    my point is nothing is fair in this world so try not to get too worked up over things lor

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