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Thread: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

  1. #21
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Well, if I were to follow your train of thought - are you from the civil service? Do you have authority to say that you're "pretty sure it doesn't just work that way"?

    Things on the internet carries an implied condition that you take it as it is, and to rely on it at your own risk. No one denies that. All online discussions will grind to a halt each time qualifications must be produced in order to say something.

    Sure you may cast doubts on the accuracy of the statement, but I don't think that it should be done in the manner you have done:

    "Vince - do you work in the civil service? Does this Mr Wang of yours work in the civil service? Or simply just armchair critics/ disgruntled people sitting on one side just whacking? I'll just wait for the civil servants to come in."

    If that was indeed your point, why ask me or Mr Wang whether he works in the civil service? Even if one works in the civil service, he/she may not have such information. Couldn't it have been better put as:

    "It remains to be verified if the points raised by Mr Wang are authentic - is anyone able to verify this?"

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    The reasoning is because I'm pretty sure it doesn't just work that way. It is definitely not all that efficient to be with. And what is Singapore known for? Efficiency. You are right in that one does not have to be a civil servant in order to write stuff on the civil service - but whether it is accurate or not, whether it is a first hand source does make a big difference. Hope you get what I mean.
    Read MR Wang's article again - he doesn't just talk about the initial stage that you are talking about. He is talking about continuous promotions for someone with a high CEP but zero actual daily performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    Hey, I'm just talking about the initial stage. We all have seen how the favoured can fall from grace, if someone has limited capability and somehow got through the scholarship interviews with hot air - you bet it'd be exposed in a short period in time. Unless they have any special capabilities, if boss says NO, higher boss says NO, how they get promoted? Unless you're talking about.. Compulsory promotions, which is another thing altogether.

    I will definitely favour DSLR B over DSLR A in the long term if your above scenario is true. But hey, note that I was just providing a pragmatic reason as to why the above policy may be in use.

    Simply put - if you have good cards in the first few rounds of poker, and the later deals are not at all impressive, you'd definitely pull out. I don't think anyone would be brave enough to just ride it through and do an all-in. =)

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by yanyewkay View Post
    dunch tell you
    cher cher, i noe i noe

  3. #23

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Well, if I were to follow your train of thought - are you from the civil service? Do you have authority to say that you're "pretty sure it doesn't just work that way"?

    Things on the internet carries an implied condition that you take it as it is, and to rely on it at your own risk. No one denies that. All online discussions will grind to a halt each time qualifications must be produced in order to say something.

    Sure you may cast doubts on the accuracy of the statement, but I don't think that it should be done in the manner you have done:

    "Vince - do you work in the civil service? Does this Mr Wang of yours work in the civil service? Or simply just armchair critics/ disgruntled people sitting on one side just whacking? I'll just wait for the civil servants to come in."

    If that was indeed your point, why ask me or Mr Wang whether he works in the civil service? Even if one works in the civil service, he/she may not have such information. Couldn't it have been better put as:

    "It remains to be verified if the points raised by Mr Wang are authentic - is anyone able to verify this?"
    Point taken about manner of speech.

    I thought Kopitiam must act like old uncle what!

    Yes, but if I have heard many-a-time, and seen facts which point to the contrary, not just from my own personal life, but during NS times..

    Then I'm afraid I have to disagree with our dear Mr Wang. Since you say that qualifications are not important then I'll say here and now that he is talking a whole bunch of crap, because while CEP is taken into account, it is NOT static, and it is NOT the only thing affecting promotion. I thought that much was pretty obvious already. He paints a picture that OMG your entire future and fate in the civil service is decided on one silly figure.

    Like that machiam use PSLE score to predict crystal ball future - solid or not? Ultimately the big boss at every level can veto any promotion if he so desires. If enough people have brought it to his attention. Works everywhere, not just civil service. But are the people doing their job of bringing ineptitude to his attention - that is the question.


    Read MR Wang's article again - he doesn't just talk about the initial stage that you are talking about. He is talking about continuous promotions for someone with a high CEP but zero actual daily performance.
    Precisely what I'm contesting. And you still don't get my point. I was only talking about WHY the employers might use it in the initial stage, when one is unproven, etc. Come on, if a so-called scholar crashes an entire project while another newbie makes another one soar, you telling me you believe that the civil service is THAT dumb to promote the crasher and shelve the success?

    I mean, we should not just take things said here for granted. Common sense would tell you that people want to protect themselves. You think that promoting someone is like *snap fingers* 1, 2, 3, PIKACHU IS EVOLVING TO RAICHU? =D (ok this is just humour, you can ignore the Pokemon statements) You have to justify, etc. And you -can- be held accountable for promoting him in the future!

  4. #24

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    cher cher, i noe i noe
    I want to go to zoo zoo zoo!

    Tokyo got zoo or not?

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    I want to go to zoo zoo zoo!

    Tokyo got zoo or not?
    yup, there're a couple, not big though ... if you have enough potential, who knows, you might just become the next attraction in japan

    oh yah, btw, i believe they link the amount of feed each animal gets with performance as well, on top of the basic meals
    Last edited by eikin; 17th April 2007 at 04:52 PM.

  6. #26
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    Point taken about manner of speech.

    I thought Kopitiam must act like old uncle what!
    No problem Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    Yes, but if I have heard many-a-time, and seen facts which point to the contrary, not just from my own personal life, but during NS times..

    Then I'm afraid I have to disagree with our dear Mr Wang. Since you say that qualifications are not important then I'll say here and now that he is talking a whole bunch of crap, because while CEP is taken into account, it is NOT static, and it is NOT the only thing affecting promotion. I thought that much was pretty obvious already. He paints a picture that OMG your entire future and fate in the civil service is decided on one silly figure.

    Like that machiam use PSLE score to predict crystal ball future - solid or not? Ultimately the big boss at every level can veto any promotion if he so desires. If enough people have brought it to his attention. Works everywhere, not just civil service. But are the people doing their job of bringing ineptitude to his attention - that is the question.
    Yeap feel free to disagree, based on your own experiences, based on what you've read, based on what you may know, or just based on your gut feel. Just prequalify what you say (e.g. its my opinion, not verifiable etc) and its fine. That is after all what an online discussion is for - an exchange of (opposing?) views and ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    Precisely what I'm contesting. And you still don't get my point. I was only talking about WHY the employers might use it in the initial stage, when one is unproven, etc. Come on, if a so-called scholar crashes an entire project while another newbie makes another one soar, you telling me you believe that the civil service is THAT dumb to promote the crasher and shelve the success?
    Hmm okay before I get deeper in trying to misunderstand you, are you saying:

    1. Your point is ONLY confined to a discussion on the initial stage, and you are not discussing anything about the later stages.

    2. You are disagreeing with Mr Wang that his theory of high CEP low performance = promotion is correct. You are saying that logic dictates that a low performer will get booted out even if he has a high CEP.

    Hope you can clarify. I know that Mr Wang is NOT talking about the initial stages so I'm a bit confused how your point fits in.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    I mean, we should not just take things said here for granted. Common sense would tell you that people want to protect themselves. You think that promoting someone is like *snap fingers* 1, 2, 3, PIKACHU IS EVOLVING TO RAICHU? =D (ok this is just humour, you can ignore the Pokemon statements) You have to justify, etc. And you -can- be held accountable for promoting him in the future!
    I agree with the part in red, which was why I questioned your need for asking for qualifications (which you have since conceded so its a non-issue now) - you too recognise that online discussions are just that, discussions.

    As for the part in blue, I am amazed at how cutting and pasting and linking back to an article conclusively means that I am promoting that article.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Hmm okay before I get deeper in trying to misunderstand you, are you saying:

    1. Your point is ONLY confined to a discussion on the initial stage, and you are not discussing anything about the later stages.

    2. You are disagreeing with Mr Wang that his theory of high CEP low performance = promotion is correct. You are saying that logic dictates that a low performer will get booted out even if he has a high CEP.

    Hope you can clarify. I know that Mr Wang is NOT talking about the initial stages so I'm a bit confused how your point fits in.[/B]
    1. No, but the point I initially made about why companies will give their scholars more opportunities (if they do so).. Was only regarding the initial stage. Long term wise, initial investment is out of the picture. Just like my poker example. If I get aces in my hand from the initial deal, obviously I will go in with all guns blazing. But if the later flop is not to my advantage, you bet I'd bail. Like any decent company would, regarding scholars.

    2. Yes. Perhaps not booted out, unless he screws up bigtime, but CEP is not some big shield which deflects all the screw-ups you make. It is something like a non-renewable armor. You may be forgiven initially, but once this armor is used up that's it baby, you're out on your own, and you will get punished for your mess-ups thereafter.
    I agree with the part in red, which was why I questioned your need for asking for qualifications (which you have since conceded so its a non-issue now) - you too recognise that online discussions are just that, discussions.

    As for the part in blue, I am amazed at how cutting and pasting and linking back to an article conclusively means that I am promoting that article.
    No, no, vince.. Nothing to do with promoting Mr Wang.

    To clarify - I was talking about promotions. Bosses do have to justify promotions, at least direct superiors, last I checked. So in the near future if the guy is promoted for the sake of his CEP or what, the boss will still be held accountable for recommending the promotion despite the inherent flaws present!

  8. #28

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    yup, there're a couple, not big though ... if you have enough potential, who knows, you might just become the next attraction in japan

    oh yah, btw, i believe they link the amount of feed each animal gets with performance as well, on top of the basic meals
    Do the animals in Japan get big hugs from chio mei meis? =D Only the chio ones hor!

    ...Link the amount of feed each animal gets with performance?... But some animals die die cannot perform one! Like.. Sheep. I think. I haven't seen a sheep perform before.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    Do the animals in Japan get big hugs from chio mei meis? =D Only the chio ones hor!
    haven't seen it though ... you can be the first, why not? you'll need to have your potential assessed first though, in case you screw up during performance and scare the 5mm powder out of the chio mei mei faces.


    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    ...Link the amount of feed each animal gets with performance?... But some animals die die cannot perform one! Like.. Sheep. I think. I haven't seen a sheep perform before.
    if you don't perform, they give you your meals lor. if you consume too much who knows, they may put you on some dieting or fitness programme. if all fails, maybe donate to other zoos to cut down wastage. if no zoo wants you, then you go to sleep lah so end of the day hor, even if you never have training to perform, learn to wayang wayang abit lah, chio mei mei don't hug you nevermind, you make some children laugh can liao lor
    Last edited by eikin; 17th April 2007 at 05:29 PM.

  10. #30
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    1. No, but the point I initially made about why companies will give their scholars more opportunities (if they do so).. Was only regarding the initial stage. Long term wise, initial investment is out of the picture. Just like my poker example. If I get aces in my hand from the initial deal, obviously I will go in with all guns blazing. But if the later flop is not to my advantage, you bet I'd bail. Like any decent company would, regarding scholars.

    2. Yes. Perhaps not booted out, unless he screws up bigtime, but CEP is not some big shield which deflects all the screw-ups you make. It is something like a non-renewable armor. You may be forgiven initially, but once this armor is used up that's it baby, you're out on your own, and you will get punished for your mess-ups thereafter.
    Alright, I now get your point of view, basically you are disagreeing with MR Wang that such a thing can exist in the Civil Service, or anywhere for that matter. I suppose we will have to see if others have experiences to share.

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    No, no, vince.. Nothing to do with promoting Mr Wang.

    To clarify - I was talking about promotions. Bosses do have to justify promotions, at least direct superiors, last I checked. So in the near future if the guy is promoted for the sake of his CEP or what, the boss will still be held accountable for recommending the promotion despite the inherent flaws present!
    My apologies, I have misunderstood your message.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    haven't seen it though ... you can be the first, why not? you'll need to have your potential assessed first though, in case you screw up during performance and scare the 5mm powder out of the chio mei mei faces.
    Chio mei meis don't need 5mm powder! That one is geisha already! Ok I hope I'm not offending anyone much by my inane talk about random Jap stuff, ignorant regarding their culture definitely. =D
    if you don't perform, they give you your meals lor. if you consume too much who knows, they may put you on some dieting or fitness programme. if all fails, maybe donate to other zoos to cut down wastage. if no zoo wants you, then you go to sleep lah so end of the day hor, even if you never have training to perform, learn to wayang wayang abit lah, chio mei mei don't hug you nevermind, you make some children laugh can liao lor
    ... ... ...

  12. #32

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    But on Internet hor, people will choose to believe Mr Wang or Mr Ah Kow or Mr Ah Beng..

    No one will listen to your poor CoA in real life!
    Ehh BG Neo damn patient man leh...

    People ask him question, he will analyse, then answer the question in multiple parts.

    Even when the question asked is stupid.

    Respect.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by drakon09 View Post
    Ehh BG Neo damn patient man leh...

    People ask him question, he will analyse, then answer the question in multiple parts.

    Even when the question asked is stupid.

    Respect.
    True, not many people are like that, sadly. =/

    Never mind, four legs good, two legs bad!

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    Chio mei meis don't need 5mm powder! That one is geisha already! Ok I hope I'm not offending anyone much by my inane talk about random Jap stuff, ignorant regarding their culture definitely. =D

    ... ... ...
    so how? want to work in the zoo or not?

  15. #35

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    so how? want to work in the zoo or not?
    You got contacts?

    Sponsor me air ticket.. I will work for peanuts!

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    You got contacts?

    Sponsor me air ticket.. I will work for peanuts!
    you wait long long ah you, you want you swim your way here yourself. if you can pull off that i'm sure you'll be graded positively for your potential.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    who is he? he same line as who one?

  18. #38

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    you wait long long ah you, you want you swim your way here yourself. if you can pull off that i'm sure you'll be graded positively for your potential.
    If I can swim to Japan don't need to go to zoo, I bet all the chio mei meis will hug me and throw themselves at me for that feat.

    You trying to pull a fast one on me hor, heh heh heh!

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    If I can swim to Japan don't need to go to zoo, I bet all the chio mei meis will hug me and throw themselves at me for that feat.

    You trying to pull a fast one on me hor, heh heh heh!
    don't get suffocated by chio mei mei powder hor

  20. #40

    Default Re: Mr Wang Says So - To Join or Not to Join

    Quote Originally Posted by night86mare View Post
    The reasoning is because I'm pretty sure it doesn't just work that way. It is definitely not all that efficient to be with. And what is Singapore known for? Efficiency. You are right in that one does not have to be a civil servant in order to write stuff on the civil service - but whether it is accurate or not, whether it is a first hand source does make a big difference.
    i'm not a civil servant, but i have many friends who are, and some who have worked in HR. what Mr Wang describes is a little extreme (ie yes, there's room for some fluctuation), but it doesn't sound too far off from what they describe.

    on your point about efficiency... the thing i find about how things are often done in singapore is that "efficient" is usually about "easy". the civil service likes to deal with things that can be easily measured and compared, such as degree qualifications, grades, etc. Getting to know an employee, working out a his strengths and weaknesses and assessing how far he can go relative to his peers... all this is difficult, time consuming, and subjective. HR takes the easy way out... a way which often doesn't accurately reflect the situation on the ground.

    i'm not in a position to make any definitive comments about the truth of Mr Wang's post. but i can say that as my working life continues, as i hear more from my friends, as i learn more about the way my own company HR works, as i see how rewards are distributed among those i work with, the more i believe that what he says is possible. it's a disillusionment process that began in NS

    i can see you have bit of faith in efficiency and good intentions. that's not a bad thing. just make sure you constantly re-evaluate, don't let that faith be blind.

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