Is CMOS sensor really better than CCD's?

[eric69]

Deciding between a Sony's DVD-808 (805E) handyman and a Canon DC-22 camcorder last week. Bought the Canon DC-22 due to its compact size. Went home made a video clip and found that the quality not "shiok".

* The Sony may have better features like its Carl Zess Sonnar T* lens and bigger CMOS sensor.

a) Like to ask whether is there a really a noticeable difference between a CMOS over a CCD sensor's (assuming everything else is equal)?

b) Is there a noticeable difference between a 3-CCD sensor (by Panasonic & JVC) & CMOS sensor (by SONY)?

I understood that there is a subjective question. Share with me your thought pls. Thanks in advance. :-D

[Hobbes00]

is there a really a noticeable difference between a CMOS over a CCD sensor's (assuming everything else is equal)?

No.

[CanonEOS]

For your question with regard to 3-CCD and 1 CCD/CMOS:
Is 3CCD better than 1? The other is yes and no. Depend on how you view it.

For 3CCD, light entering the camera is split via a prism into its three primary color ( Red, Blue and Green). There are 3 sensors to capture each color therefore the color reproduction of a 3CCD camcorder will be better compared to one however the overall feel then to be darker as light intensity drops when light is splited.

For camcoder with 1 CCD/CMOS sensor, all the light entering the camera falls onto the sensor. Color reproduction is based on a primary/secondary filter place in front of the sensor. If primary filter is used, the color reproduction will be quite similar to 3CCD while for secondary filter, it loses out in this area. The key advantage a single CCD have over 3CCD in consumer camcorder is that the video for night shot will be relatively brighter.

With regards to your question on quality of video camera:

For video camera using DVD/Hardisk/Memory Card, on normal definition, the highest frame bit is only 8mb/s whereas for video camera using DV Tape, the average frame rate is 25/s. Therefore the quality captured via a one mega pixel video cam that uses DVD and one that uses DV Tapes is loses out alot in quality. In the broadcast industry, the players are still using Tape as their main source of recording as only tape can deliver broadcast HD quality.

Btw, have u tried both camera side by side. What i meant is plug both video camera into the television and see the difference. What you see may surpise u

[jaegersing]

Originally Posted by CanonEOS For video camera using DVD/Hardisk/Memory Card, on normal definition, the highest frame bit is only 8mb/s whereas for video camera using DV Tape, the average frame rate is 25/s. Therefore the quality captured via a one mega pixel video cam that uses DVD and one that uses DV Tapes is loses out alot in quality. In the broadcast industry, the players are still using Tape as their main source of recording as only tape can deliver broadcast HD quality.

Hi CanonEOS. Just to clarify the numbers a bit:

DVD compression might produce a bitrate of around 8Mbps. DV compression has a bitrate of 25Mbps. In a PAL system, both will have a frame rate of 25fps.

[jaegersing]

Oh, and forgot to mention- CCD tends to have vertical smearing of light sources when shooting at night, due to light leakage down the sensor block. CMOS doesn't seem to have this, or not so much.

[CanonEOS]

Originally Posted by jaegersing Hi CanonEOS. Just to clarify the numbers a bit: DVD compression might produce a bitrate of around 8Mbps. DV compression has a bitrate of 25Mbps. In a PAL system, both will have a frame rate of 25fps.

Thanks for clarifying. My mistake.

[mpenza]

size matters more. DVD-805E has a bigger sensor I think and will perform better especially for low light.

I bought the older Canon DC20 recently cos it's a bit smaller

[eric69]

Thanks for all the advice; being very useful. I know this topic is quite subjective. I suspect my displeasure could possibly due to my desire to own the more expensive Sony's than the Canon's, although my wife has been telling me that the Canon DC22's output is OK for her already.

Unfortunately, I didn't get the opportunity to see the output of the Canon's and Sony's side by side while in Cathay's when I made the purchase, becos they "don't-do-such-testing".

Thnaks. :-D

[jaegersing]

Originally Posted by eric69 Thanks for all the advice; being very useful. I know this topic is quite subjective. I suspect my displeasure could possibly due to my desire to own the more expensive Sony's than the Canon's, although my wife has been telling me that the Canon DC22's output is OK for her already. Unfortunately, I didn't get the opportunity to see the output of the Canon's and Sony's side by side while in Cathay's when I made the purchase, becos they "don't-do-such-testing". Thnaks. :-D

Hi Eric. My suggestion would be to forget about the sensor technology and try to get the best out of your Canon. It could be that you can adjust someting that will make the picture more shiok for you. Is it too bright/too dull/not colourful enough/too sharp/too blur/too contrasty or what? Were you trying it out indoors or outside? Indoor lighting can be really tough to get good results with (although Sony can be very good at this). Maybe if you can be a bit more specific somebody will be able to offer some advice.

By the way, I'm surprised Cathay didn't allow you to try out the cams, I've seen them many times entertain customers trying out all sorts of equipment (i.e. not just expensive stuff).

[eric69]

Originally Posted by jaegersing Hi Eric. My suggestion would be to forget about the sensor technology and try to get the best out of your Canon. It could be that you can adjust someting that will make the picture more shiok for you. Is it too bright/too dull/not colourful enough/too sharp/too blur/too contrasty or what? Were you trying it out indoors or outside? Indoor lighting can be really tough to get good results with (although Sony can be very good at this). Maybe if you can be a bit more specific somebody will be able to offer some advice. By the way, I'm surprised Cathay didn't allow you to try out the cams, I've seen them many times entertain customers trying out all sorts of equipment (i.e. not just expensive stuff).

Thanks for the much needed wake-up call and needed advice. to clarify, while I was in Cathay, they were indeed very helpful to let me hands-on all the camcorders that I wanna try, unfortunately they fell short of allowing me to connect the cams to their (21") LCD monitor to view image. Thus I failed to test both cams side-by-side.

[GhostSG]

Originally Posted by eric69 Thanks for the much needed wake-up call and needed advice. to clarify, while I was in Cathay, they were indeed very helpful to let me hands-on all the camcorders that I wanna try, unfortunately they fell short of allowing me to connect the cams to their (21") LCD monitor to view image. Thus I failed to test both cams side-by-side.

The CMOS technology is of course better than the CCD in a sense. B'cos it was used in satellites before becoming available for consumers.

Inmaterial whether its CCD or CMOS; the most important thing you guys gota consider is the size of the sensor. Dun fall for the sales gimmick "3CCD/CMOS" - it's the size of the sensor that matters. No point getting a 3CCDs/CMOS that's 1/6inch each when a single 1/3inch CCD/CMOS produces the same quality of video. It's all about lighting conditions during your shoot that matters as well. Go for the cams with bigger sensors and you will get the best colour. The rest is up to how you shoot the video and post production.

[jaegersing]

Originally Posted by GhostSG The CMOS technology is of course better than the CCD in a sense. B'cos it was used in satellites before becoming available for consumers. .

Hi Ghost. The rest of your post is very good advice, but this part puzzles me. Why is it an advantage, unless we are planning to be space tourists and take our CMOS cams into earth orbit?

[GhostSG]

Oh Richard.....no lah not space tourist(MIB) hahaha . Both CCDs & CMOS were invented in the 1960-1970s. CMOS (complementary metal oxide semiconductor) was tried for spy/ weather satellite technology. Back then it was too expensive and the wafer fab. facilities were unable to mass produce as CMOS components are much smaller than CCDs. Only recent 1990s that advance in lithography technology allows the mass production of CMOS chips. Now designers has evolved into a camcorder technology with the expectation of lowered power consumption. It has better clarity and colour processing over conventional CCDs(charge coupled diode) in a certain way. But ultimately its all about the size of the sensor.

Advantage of CMOS over conventional CCDs are a) Larger pixel size b) unique 45-degrees pixel layout <CCDs have a normal vertical&horizontal-tick-tack-toe kind of layout> and c) an increased number of green pixels

However, if the size of the CMOS sensor is smaller than a CCD than the effect of color and clarity will be the same as a CCD. Example lets compare the Sony FX1 and FX7 :-

Sony FX1 has 3 pcs of 1/3 inch(6mm) HAD(Hole-Accumulation Diode) CCDs
In HDV mode it can capture 1,120K pixels of image
In SD mode it can capture 1,070K pixels of image

Sony FX7 has 3 pcs of 1/4inch(4.5mm) CMOS
In HDV mode it capture 1,000K pixels of image
In SD mode it capture only 778K pixels of image

[jaegersing]

Hi Ghost. OK, thanks for the explanation. Some of it seems to be Sony marketing though, rather than real technical advantage (like the diagonal placement which seems to be a way to claim higher resolution with fewer pixels).

Richard

[GoneForGood]

Hey All,

Wah you guys all so "CHEEM" man...Space Orbit and all...I really
CATCH NO BALL man!!
Anyway GHOSTSG your information very good man. I think you engineer
by profession right??

Thanks Guys for all this now i know more about CMOS and SHE SHE D.

GoneForGood

[KCBox]

If you can read Chinese more info and review 3CMOS sensor HDR-FX7E

http://www.sony.com.cn/electronics/handycam2005/828.htm

[GhostSG]

Originally Posted by GoneForGood Hey All, Wah you guys all so "CHEEM" man...Space Orbit and all...I really CATCH NO BALL man!! Anyway GHOSTSG your information very good man. I think you engineer by profession right?? Thanks Guys for all this now i know more about CMOS and SHE SHE D. GoneForGood

Hi Richard, yah I sound like selling Sony hehehe think they should employ me right? hahahaha ....no lah I have been using Sony since consumer time so I know Sony products better lor. Anyway, even the US trainers taught us the same thing so dunno if the trainers are selling for Sony or not hahahaha. I started using panasonic after I gone fulltime into videography though.

Anyway <goneforegood> I am not an engineer only studied electronics but drop out to join the govt 16 years ago so consider BTC (Bor Tark Che) hahaha...... Only did my own further studies but also didnt complete my diplomas b'cos no time during my service with the govt esp after 9-11. But I had to attend courses and deal a lot with videography, surviellance and electronics etc to counter terrorist threats though.