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Thread: on Flash techniques

  1. #41

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    Sorry another point there is also an under currrent of what do you know from reciepiants of comments or advice. Being closed to comments/advice means that you will only improve when you realise your problem which could take when ever.

    Listen think then respond not listen and react.

  2. #42

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    Originally posted by ellery
    Sorry another point there is also an under currrent of what do you know from reciepiants of comments or advice. Being closed to comments/advice means that you will only improve when you realise your problem which could take when ever.

    Listen think then respond not listen and react.
    i guess it comes to a final conclusion... shoot more, ask more... practise makes improvment... ask the right person...

    the final product on the table speaks everything...

    understand WHAT is photography but not the term of photography...

    finally, take part in competition... u will understand more...
    personal point of view....

  3. #43
    vince123123
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    What an exchange. from what i gather, reignman is syaing that flash will freeze the subject regardless of conditions and you can use 1/10s to get ambient background. mpenza says that under certain circumtsances, your flash wont freeze the subject.

    I thot that what mpenza said was correct and what is a rather basic point. obviously if ur shutter is slow enuff or the ambient light is bright enuff, your flash will never freeze the subject adequately as the existing light will "bleed' (to quote a post here) into the "flash frozen" exposure.

    So reignman's conclusion is rather assuming and its overgeneralised to suit every situation.

    PS am going to check out the original post now to see what started all these :P


    Originally posted by Prismatic
    Hmmm seriously, I've lost track of what Reignman and mpenza are really discussing about....

    Maybe you guys should keep your posts short and to the point.
    I think there's quite a lot of sidetracking here. Guys, we are talking about a bridal shoot here, not panning, or F1 cars or whatever.

  4. #44

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    wah chief justise vince in the forum ah... so scare....

    ok... my apologise... what I meant was WHEN I'M USING A 17MM FOR CLOSEUP SHOOT WITH FLASH..... to "freeze my subject" with -1/2 stop of flash so that the flash will not fall hard on the subject... but still freeze it... but the way, the distance is less than 2m

    everything depends on DISTANCE...

    guess u forgot to read a message that i've posted:

    "1/10s is NOT A ALL ROUND useable speed... use at the right time..."

    PLEASE finish READING EVERY SINGLE WORD before u judge... guess thats is what good judges does....

    "obviously if ur shutter is slow enuff or the ambient light is bright enuff, your flash will never freeze the subject adequately as the existing light will "bleed' (to quote a post here) into the "flash frozen" exposure."

    if flash can't FREEZE a subject with enough ambient, what DOES a flash do??? brighten a picture??? flatten a subject?? there are more to go about it THAN JUST BASIC... if u are talking about BASIC all the time, how to improve???

    Basic is just a guide... NOT A MUST FOLLOW subject....

  5. #45
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    hey! everyone be nice....

    the original poster uses ~100-210mm focal lengths to shoot models 5-10m away (some of us were there and knew the conditions, there were some physical/human barriers barring us from shooting up very close). Some confusion comes about because it was somehow implied that 1/10s would freeze the moving models under that situation (5-10m away, and 100-210mm focal length)..... we hadn't known that the 1/10s was meant for a close-up shot taken with a 17mm lens. If we had known, the thread might have taken a very different direction....
    Last edited by mpenza; 20th March 2003 at 09:45 PM.
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  6. #46

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    if u are using iso1600, flash power +2 stop, 1/10s to 1/30s, focal lenght of 200mm can still get a "freeze" action... just that u will get graining pictures... moving ambient lighting because of hand shake...

    for those who shot or participate as G.O.H in NDP before, u should know, when dressing and undressing of colours, there are security guarding the area... i had done it with the Parade RSM dressing colours behind the stadium... my distance was at less 20meters away... although the lose of ambient light due to further distance, i still get "freeze" action of the "rolling" colours and RSM hand movement.... speed 1/10s

    if not try it this coming NDP... not the firework... but the event itself... the street shot... er also... i meant in slides and not negatives and digital.... why slides, u should understand why... negative and digital, u can still change the colours... slides, Yes can change when u digitize it... like this every thing also can...

    May i know how many of the fellow photographers have FIX combination of different pictures??? or have u not try because basic theory say so....??

    come back to the point, its how u use the combination and not how BASIC comes in... there are NO fix combination in photography... and i believe that there is only 1 rule in photography... "Films are cheap... moments are priceless"... nothing else... its either u get good pictures or u get non...

    1/10s MAY cause movement, but if the flash power is right, u will still get a "freeze" action....

    there are no "IMPOSSIBLE/cannot be done" if u try it out...
    Last edited by reignman77; 20th March 2003 at 11:40 PM.

  7. #47
    vince123123
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    Heh one up for u mpenza....esp for those who ask others to read everything.

    oh btw this is the first time i hear of soemone using a 17mm lens to do runway shows :P

    Cheers!

    Originally posted by mpenza
    hey! everyone be nice....

    the original poster uses ~100-210mm focal lengths to shoot models 5-10m away (some of us were there and knew the conditions, there were some physical/human barriers barring us from shooting up very close). Some confusion comes about because it was somehow implied that 1/10s would freeze the moving models under that situation (5-10m away, and 100-210mm focal length)..... we hadn't known that the 1/10s was meant for a close-up shot taken with a 17mm lens. If we had known, the thread might have taken a very different direction....

  8. #48
    vince123123
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    Ok i stand by what i said again, just went ot review everything YOU said in this post and the only reference to anythingabt 17mm was in your paragraph here and i quote:

    "for me, so long as my bag is light, i don't care... i can just leave home for a shoot with a 17mm lens and a 50mm lens... with my velvia and tripod... will be enough... to far, don't shoot lor... if not plan for your shoot... what for bring a "white elephant of the day", in the end didn't use... i prefer sharp pictures than sharp grains...."

    what you mean and what you say in the post are two different htings, not everyone has ESP To know what youare THINKING as opposed to what you are saying.

    you were attempting to advise chenwei on how to shoot his picture and u said in ur first post "when using flash, try go as low as 1/10s or even slower to get ambience light... to flat without ambience light...". did u say anty8ing abt shooting 17mm at 2m? guess not. but then again i dont have ESP.

    and btw, this is the first time i heard anyone using a 17mm to do a runway show perhaps its ur own runway show at ur own house and then again we are not taking into accounts the possible distortion issues of using an ultra wide at close range :P
    big nose? :P

    and obviously u misconstrue what i meant by ambient ...the flash does freeze the subject if and only if the ambient doesn't overpower it, ie by VERY SLOW shutter speed or veyr bright lights. its like those rear curtain sync shots where you can see the flash freezing hte subject with real trails...the trails are caused by slow shutter exposure. similarly using 1/10 may get u a slow shutter blur effect around ur flash frozen image. but then again, since u're using a 17mm for runway shows u prob already know better

    Cheers!


    Originally posted by reignman77
    wah chief justise vince in the forum ah... so scare....

    ok... my apologise... what I meant was WHEN I'M USING A 17MM FOR CLOSEUP SHOOT WITH FLASH..... to "freeze my subject" with -1/2 stop of flash so that the flash will not fall hard on the subject... but still freeze it... but the way, the distance is less than 2m

    everything depends on DISTANCE...

    guess u forgot to read a message that i've posted:

    "1/10s is NOT A ALL ROUND useable speed... use at the right time..."

    PLEASE finish READING EVERY SINGLE WORD before u judge... guess thats is what good judges does....

    "obviously if ur shutter is slow enuff or the ambient light is bright enuff, your flash will never freeze the subject adequately as the existing light will "bleed' (to quote a post here) into the "flash frozen" exposure."

    if flash can't FREEZE a subject with enough ambient, what DOES a flash do??? brighten a picture??? flatten a subject?? there are more to go about it THAN JUST BASIC... if u are talking about BASIC all the time, how to improve???

    Basic is just a guide... NOT A MUST FOLLOW subject....
    Last edited by vince123123; 20th March 2003 at 11:41 PM.

  9. #49
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    Originally posted by reignman77
    if u are using iso1600, flash power +2 stop, 1/10s to 1/30s, focal lenght of 200mm can still get a "freeze" action... just that u will get graining pictures... moving ambient lighting because of hand shake...
    not to sidetrack too much....

    hmm.... could you explain the part about how flash power +2 stop (and not left at default flash compensation), ISO 1600 would "freeze action"? do you mean to create a picture where flash overpower the ambient light and hence freeze the subject?
    Last edited by mpenza; 20th March 2003 at 11:51 PM.
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  10. #50

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    Originally posted by mpenza
    not to sidetrack too much....

    hmm.... could you explain the part about how flash power +2 stop (and not left at default flash compensation), ISO 1600 would "freeze action"? do you mean to create a picture where flash overpower the ambient light and hence freeze the subject?
    this is to compensate the distance when u DON'T have a flash extander... of course, u have to zoom your flash to the max for high end flash...

    and iso 1600 is to help 1/10s to capture ambient light...
    Last edited by reignman77; 20th March 2003 at 11:51 PM.

  11. #51
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    Originally posted by reignman77
    this is to compensate the distance when u DON'T have a flash extander... of course, u have to zoom your flash to the max for high end flash...
    oh... ok... with a powerful enough flash, I guess there may not be a need then if the distance is not too far. (e.g. theoretically at ISO 1600, the SB80DX's effective GN will be 224m, and the flash could reach 20m when an aperture of F11 is used, assuming no light transmission loss due to the distance).

    Also, I presume that the shutter speed will also depend on the ambient lighting. If the setting is brighter, a faster speed or lower ISO may be used to prevent overexposure (if that's the intention of course).
    Last edited by mpenza; 21st March 2003 at 12:00 AM.
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  12. #52
    vince123123
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    sorry again not to sound hostile, but oso wondering, u din mention abt flash extender earlier, but even in the situation that you need a flash extender doesn't it mean that your flash is already outputting its FULL amount? wont +2 make no difference since the flash is on full amount regardless?

    ie for eg, using arbitrary figures,

    if flash is sufficient up to 10m at 105mm, your subject is at 12m, thats why u need flash extender to extend to (105+x)mm so as to extend to 12m.

    if you dont have a flash extender, dialing in +2 flash compensation will still make ur flash sufficient up to 10m only at 105mm. hence it wont make a differnece.






    Originally posted by reignman77
    this is to compensate the distance when u DON'T have a flash extander... of course, u have to zoom your flash to the max for high end flash...

    and iso 1600 is to help 1/10s to capture ambient light...

  13. #53

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    vince123123

    is there a need to run away??

    i mention before and again... DISTANCE is part of the factor as well...

    "you were attempting to advise chenwei on how to shoot his picture and u said in ur first post "when using flash, try go as low as 1/10s or even slower to get ambience light... to flat without ambience light...". did u say anty8ing abt shooting 17mm at 2m? guess not. but then again i dont have ESP."

    well, i didn't mention about the flash power did i??? when using 1/10s at AUTO flash, or its either my fault for not explaining to ng him about FLASH power before i explaining the use of 1/10s....?? or should i ask, "WHAT flash power did u use??", "did u use TTL or auto mode??"

    my advice to him for 1/10s is for ambient light... NOT SHARP ambient light... shoot for 200mm

    it will be too bad if u don't have ESP... there are more people with ESP... mine are not THAT strong either....
    Last edited by reignman77; 21st March 2003 at 12:29 AM.

  14. #54

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    Flash extender was mention by mpenza BEFORE...

    well, if u +2 stop with max zoom on your flash, and your subject is being frame in the centre... by the time the light reaches the subject, the light won't be too hash to flatten the subject ... with the support of iso1600 and low speed of 1/10s, u will be able to get the picture of what i mention....

  15. #55

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    Originally posted by mpenza
    oh... ok... with a powerful enough flash, I guess there may not be a need then if the distance is not too far. (e.g. theoretically at ISO 1600, the SB80DX's effective GN will be 224m, and the flash could reach 20m when an aperture of F11 is used, assuming no light transmission loss due to the distance).

    Also, I presume that the shutter speed will also depend on the ambient lighting. If the setting is brighter, a faster speed or lower ISO may be used to prevent overexposure (if that's the intention of course).
    as mention before, there is no fix combination in photography... for what i have mention SINCE day 1, all are base on what i have tried on slides and experience... NOT base on theory... its always an error in 1st try... that's is where we learn... there is no end to learning in photography...

  16. #56
    vince123123
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    that doesn't detract from the point that a +2 compensation will be in effect a +0 should u be in the situation where you reuqire a flash extender.



    Originally posted by reignman77
    vince123123

    is there a need to run away??

    i mention before and again... DISTANCE is part of the factor as well...

    "you were attempting to advise chenwei on how to shoot his picture and u said in ur first post "when using flash, try go as low as 1/10s or even slower to get ambience light... to flat without ambience light...". did u say anty8ing abt shooting 17mm at 2m? guess not. but then again i dont have ESP."

    well, i didn't mention about the flash power did i??? when using 1/10s at AUTO flash, or its either my fault for not explaining to ng him about FLASH power before i explaining the use of 1/10s....?? or should i ask, "WHAT flash power did u use??", "did u use TTL or auto mode??"

    my advice to him for 1/10s is for ambient light... NOT SHARP ambient light... shoot for 200mm

    it will be too bad if u don't have ESP... there are more people with ESP... mine are not THAT strong either....

  17. #57
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    Originally posted by reignman77
    as mention before, there is no fix combination in photography... for what i have mention SINCE day 1, all are base on what i have tried on slides and experience... NOT base on theory... its always an error in 1st try... that's is where we learn... there is no end to learning in photography...
    Of course. If you read my post, I was trying to say no fixed formula/combination (i.e. not always not ISO1600, flash compensation +2EV, 1/10s-1/30s, 200mm focal length). Whether to compensate depends on the flash used and distance. Also shutter speed depends on the aperture and the lighting conditions.

    Just something to note: you mentioned no fixed combination but have been prescribing 1/10s, "ISO 1600, flash exposure +2EV, 1/10-1/30s, 200mm focal length", without describing the situations under which they apply and the equipment used(17mm lens, close-up shot for first case!?!?!). This may be confusing to people who are new to photography or flash techniques. You also mentoned not following the basics, but settings you have been using doesn't contradict "basics" once you gave the full picture (e.g. 17mm lens, close-up shot, 1/10s with flash, using monopod for support when a longer focal length zoom lens is used).

    You also seems to have some misunderstanding about digital photography. Technology has progressed a lot in recent years, and many people don't need to sit in front of a PC to correct pics, whether color or noise.
    Last edited by mpenza; 21st March 2003 at 08:16 AM.
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  18. #58
    vince123123
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    Clap CLap CLap Clap

    not to mention the initial post which contained the sweeping statement (or rule) "when using flash, try to go as low as 1/10s or even slower to get ...."

    heheh


    Originally posted by mpenza
    Of course. If you read my post, I was trying to say no fixed formula/combination (i.e. not always not ISO1600, flash compensation +2EV, 1/10s-1/30s, 200mm focal length). Whether to compensate depends on the flash used and distance. Also shutter speed depends on the aperture and the lighting conditions.

    Just something to note: you mentioned no fixed combination but have been prescribing 1/10s, "ISO 1600, flash exposure +2EV, 1/10-1/30s, 200mm focal length", without describing the situations under which they apply and the equipment used(17mm lens, close-up shot for first case!?!?!). This may be confusing to people who are new to photography or flash techniques. You also mentoned not following the basics, but settings you have been using doesn't contradict "basics" once you gave the full picture (e.g. 17mm lens, close-up shot, 1/10s with flash, using monopod for support when a longer focal length zoom lens is used).

    You also seems to have some misunderstanding about digital photography. Technology has progressed a lot in recent years, and many people don't need to sit in front of a PC to correct pics, whether color or noise.

  19. #59

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    mpenza

    those are SAMPLES of what i have use... not combination that is a MUST to follow...

  20. #60

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    Originally posted by vince123123
    Clap CLap CLap Clap

    not to mention the initial post which contained the sweeping statement (or rule) "when using flash, try to go as low as 1/10s or even slower to get ...."

    heheh
    Hi ya.... i guess your ESP are not working... ops.. forgot, u don't have 1...

    as mention, WHEN using flash, "TRY" to go as low... not MUST go as low....

    is TRY a word in "RULES"?????

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