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Thread: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

  1. #61

    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
    You can't afford to be too stupid..you're the moderator! What's with this 'I didn't hear anything ' attitude?

    It's not the fact about free services or however you put it, its called the entitlement and knowledge of rights. Each person, no matter a hobbyist or advanced amateur , have rights even when it comes to work where commercial dividends are being made. We are talking about companies who are earning from these events, which by the way in most countries its against the law. These companies would not be able to practice such methods in where I am, even on the public forums. Our union worker rights makes sure of that.

    Most people who engaged in this are new and AREN'T even aware of their rights. If they want to engage in an event, what eikin is proposing is a rules and guidelines and most importantly to LET the service provider know their rights as according to law.

    According to your logic: if people are coming on here asking for any models and molests them through this website..the moderators aren't going to do anything even if such things happens and CS gets its name blacken? By the way I am stating a true life example that happened here in CS, but I shall not reveal names.
    OK now at least there's a point I can understand and disagree with.

    We are assuming that those offering free services are as stupid as I am and unaware of their rights. But what if that is not the case? There are many people volunteering their services for free to do charity work. Are their rights being violated without their knowledge? I don't think so. All those Linux programmers who fine tune the source code and offer it for free - are their rights being unwittingly violated by companies like Red Hat who take their work and sell it for commercial gain? Again, I don't think so.

    I have no disagreement with educating newbies and amateur photographers about their rights if they should choose to become paid professionals. In fact I see this being more than adequately performed thanks to the tireless efforts of Eikin et al.

    But I don't see why we need to restrict anyone from seeking free photographic services from keen and willing amateurs (who would have been adequately informed about their rights by now).

    CS is, after all, a community for people to meet each other. It's like proposing that you go down to a pub and forbid people from seeking one-night-stands there, and insist that they should go down to Geylang where there will be a paid transaction (OK bad analogy, but you get the idea).

    And please, just for the record, I don't go down to pubs or Geylang, so no more ad hominem attacks. Thanks.
    Last edited by StreetShooter; 18th March 2007 at 10:33 PM.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by StreetShooter View Post
    But I don't see why we need to restrict anyone from seeking free photographic services from keen and willing amateurs (who would have been adequately informed about their rights by now).

    CS is, after all, a community for people to meet each other. It's like proposing that you go down to a pub and forbid people from seeking one-night-stands there, and insist that they should go down to Geylang where there will be a paid transaction (OK bad analogy, but you get the idea).
    Bad analogies aside, I'll be serious for once.

    How about there be an OPTIONAL undertaking. I'm sure the solidly interested, not-seeking-to-exploit people will "sign" or agree with it. And the ones who are just seeking to play around and ask for cheap deals will hesitate. Of course, this undertaking must be properly phrased, etc. Nothing wrong with it.

    Not sure if this was mentioned earlier, but this does not have any restriction at all, since it's optional. As long as the big players / serious seekers set an example by adhering to using it, I'm sure it'd help in one way or another.
    Last edited by night86mare; 18th March 2007 at 10:36 PM.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
    According to your logic: if people are coming on here asking for any models and molests them through this website..the moderators aren't going to do anything even if such things happens and CS gets its name blacken? By the way I am stating a true life example that happened here in CS, but I shall not reveal names.
    Erm, and what do you propose the admin can do to prevent this happening? Insist on a photocopy of the NRIC for every person who requests for a TFCD, or joins a model shoot?

    If someone is molested in Zouk, is the Zouk management held responsible?

  4. #64

    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by StreetShooter View Post
    Erm, and what do you propose the admin can do to prevent this happening? Insist on a photocopy of the NRIC for every person who requests for a TFCD, or joins a model shoot?

    If someone is molested in Zouk, is the Zouk management held responsible?
    I really think we can keep on track of the discussions without... rather off-track analogies.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by StreetShooter View Post
    Erm, and what do you propose the admin can do to prevent this happening? Insist on a photocopy of the NRIC for every person who requests for a TFCD, or joins a model shoot?

    If someone is molested in Zouk, is the Zouk management held responsible?
    But your focus is wrong!

    The point is not about whether the CS admin is responsible, but what connotations it holds for the website/forums itself. Like it or not, I'm sure the CS admin works towards a positive image for CS - clean, quality, etc. A good name is better than a bad name, anytime.

    Such incidents can't be avoided, definitely, but for the exploitation thing, SOMETHING can be done to HELP the situation. We cannot curtail it indefinitely, I'm sure eikin or anyone else who posted up about this matter is THAT idealistic. But we can REDUCE the number of occurences, and at least give people an idea of what they're going into, and understand the consequences of their actions. In a sense, it's babysitting, but if there is a need for it, then by george we should have it.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Sorry, but I actually read Eikin's post, and he was basically asking the Admin (not mods, hor?) to institute posting guidelines to discourage people from seeking free services. I disagree with this part.

    I don't disagree at all with educating and informing CS members about their rights as fee-charging professionals. But I think that there's no room for nazis to insist that I cannot offer my services for free to someone seeking them if I am doing so for personal satisfaction and experience. And if I wish to seek free photographic services, I don't think there should be any reason to stop me from making my request known to a pool of willing amateurs.

    OK bad analogy time again. Let's say I'm a girl who looks like, say, Zhang Ziyi. I post a request for TFCD with the photographers here to build up my portfolio (so that I can earn money next time). My pm inbox is flooded within minutes. Then someone steps in and insists that I should pay these photographers because they have a right to be paid, and I should not be asking for free services. How?
    Last edited by StreetShooter; 18th March 2007 at 10:54 PM.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by StreetShooter View Post
    OK bad analogy time again. Let's say I'm a girl who looks like, say, Zhang Ziyi. I post a request for TFCD with the photographers here to build up my portfolio. My pm inbox is flooded within minutes. Then someone steps in and insists that I should pay these photographers because they have a right to be paid, and I should not be asking for free services. How?
    Sorry to OT, but this analogy is really bad.

    Okay, in that case the world should just sacrifice all the stupid lambs. The government should not try to prevent cases like TT Durai (note, not NKF). Or care.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by StreetShooter View Post
    Sorry, but I actually read Eikin's post, and he was basically asking the Admin (not mods, hor?) to institute posting guidelines to discourage people from seeking free services. I disagree with this part.

    I don't disagree at all with educating and informing CS members about their rights as fee-charging professionals. But I think that there's no room for nazis to insist that I cannot offer my services for free to someone seeking them if I am doing so for personal satisfaction and experience. And if I wish to seek free photographic services, I don't think there should be any reason to stop me from making my request known to a pool of willing amateurs.

    OK bad analogy time again. Let's say I'm a girl who looks like, say, Zhang Ziyi. I post a request for TFCD with the photographers here to build up my portfolio (so that I can earn money next time). My pm inbox is flooded within minutes. Then someone steps in and insists that I should pay these photographers because they have a right to be paid, and I should not be asking for free services. How?
    i'm not asking anyone to refrain from giving free services. i'm requesting that a system be in place to prevent the 'fishing' of unsuspecting members to exploit their work and time. if a company thinks it has the fair terms and conditions on offer to ask for free service, by all means.

    say a system that requires service requester to clearly state the originating company or individual, that will effectively deter employees from/event managing companies working for well established companies with reputation at stake to sneak in here anonymously to ask for free service. a member who picks up the deal via CS can point back to the terms and conditions he sees here as a basis for any disputes disadvantaged against him/her. CS does not need to carry the name of condoning exploitative individuals and companies.

    get it?

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    i'm not asking anyone to refrain from giving free services. i'm requesting that a system be in place to prevent the 'fishing' of unsuspecting members to exploit their work and time. if a company thinks it has the fair terms and conditions on offer to ask for free service, by all means.

    say a system that requires service requester to clearly state the originating company or individual, that will effectively deter employees from/event managing companies working for well established companies with reputation at stake to sneak in here anonymously to ask for free service. a member who picks up the deal via CS can point back to the terms and conditions he sees here as a basis for any disputes disadvantaged against him/her. CS does not need to carry the name of condoning exploitative individuals and companies.

    get it?

  10. #70

    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    OK beginning to see the light.

    So Microsoft hires Chao Kuan Pte Ltd to manage the launch of Vista. Chao Kuan Pte Ltd advertises on CS to get photographers to cover the event for free, while collecting a fat fee from Microsoft. Streetshooter volunteers to shoot the event for free. Microsoft not happy with the photos, sues Chao Kuan Pte Ltd. Chao Kuan says sue Streetshooter, he's the one who took the photos. Streetshooter donno what to say.

    Izzit like that?

    I think Streetshooter not THAT stupid lah. But in case he is, we educate him lah. In any case, in the absence of any legally binding contract (verbal or otherwise) between Streetshooter and/or Microsoft and Chao Kuan Pte Ltd, I don't think got any fight lah. Now Streetshooter also become amateur lawyer oredi.

    In fact this has happened to me. A local website selling local school test papers used pictures of my kids stolen from my personal home page. When I found out about it, I asked the website admin (it was a reputable website developer) to take it down. They complied very quickly, and explained that they had outsourced the creation of the website to a third party, who had obviously helped himself to the free photos on my personal home page.

    Did I get it this time?

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by StreetShooter View Post
    OK beginning to see the light.

    So Microsoft hires Chao Kuan Pte Ltd to manage the launch of Vista. Chao Kuan Pte Ltd advertises on CS to get photographers to cover the event for free, while collecting a fat fee from Microsoft. Streetshooter volunteers to shoot the event for free. Microsoft not happy with the photos, sues Chao Kuan Pte Ltd. Chao Kuan says sue Streetshooter, he's the one who took the photos. Streetshooter donno what to say.

    Izzit like that?

    I think Streetshooter not THAT stupid lah. But in case he is, we educate him lah. In any case, in the absence of any legally binding contract (verbal or otherwise) between Streetshooter and/or Microsoft and Chao Kuan Pte Ltd, I don't think got any fight lah. Now Streetshooter also become amateur lawyer oredi.

    In fact this has happened to me. A local website selling local school test papers used pictures of my kids stolen from my personal home page. When I found out about it, I asked the website admin (it was a reputable website developer) to take it down. They complied very quickly, and explained that they had outsourced the creation of the website to a third party, who had obviously helped himself to the free photos on my personal home page.

    Did I get it this time?
    thank almighty.

  12. #72

    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    thank almighty.
    hee hee, i thought i was bad.

    so, should we make a sticky in photo biz thread for a start to at least implement a warning system? noticed that till now, at this moment, this thing is still happening.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    i'm not asking anyone to refrain from giving free services. i'm requesting that a system be in place to prevent the 'fishing' of unsuspecting members to exploit their work and time. if a company thinks it has the fair terms and conditions on offer to ask for free service, by all means.

    say a system that requires service requester to clearly state the originating company or individual, that will effectively deter employees from/event managing companies working for well established companies with reputation at stake to sneak in here anonymously to ask for free service. a member who picks up the deal via CS can point back to the terms and conditions he sees here as a basis for any disputes disadvantaged against him/her. CS does not need to carry the name of condoning exploitative individuals and companies.

    get it?
    Just want to say that this is an apt solution.

    This thread is not against:
    • receiving or giving FOC services
    • any individuals providing FOC services to gain experience


    This thread is about:
    • setting up consumer protectionism within CS
    • a TS that advertises requiring FOC services while charging his client $fees, thus leaving the respondent (FOC) exploited
    • CS Admin to look into providing protection from the above-mentioned exploitation


    Just a quick summary to prevent further OT. Let's see something happen from this thread.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    somewhere along the thread i did mention that i've been informed that the Admin is working on it, i hope this thread can remain open to gather suggestions and ideas to help refine the system. that's it.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    did i hear a "Big Bang"?

    v exciting!

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    seems like the thread now become "Definition of Exploitation"

  17. #77

    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Yeo View Post
    seems like the thread now become "Definition of Exploitation"
    good lah. at least get the arguement on the right track first.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by StreetShooter View Post
    OK beginning to see the light.

    So Microsoft hires Chao Kuan Pte Ltd to manage the launch of Vista. Chao Kuan Pte Ltd advertises on CS to get photographers to cover the event for free, while collecting a fat fee from Microsoft. Streetshooter volunteers to shoot the event for free. Microsoft not happy with the photos, sues Chao Kuan Pte Ltd. Chao Kuan says sue Streetshooter, he's the one who took the photos. Streetshooter donno what to say.
    I'm not even going so far to the stage where the photographer is being sued. I just fail to understand how yourself, as a Mod. here can accept that anyone can come here to ask for cheap/free photographer to exploite while paying good money to his/her other suppliers? Using your posting above, Chao Kuan is PAID, launch site owner is PAID, the stage desingers are PAID, the MCs are PAID, in fact everyone down to the guy who sweeps the floor after the event is PAID BUT the photographer is NOT PAID. And you can agreed with that???!!!

    Shooting for expericence is one thing, but for someone to come here to exploite photographers here while reeling in a profit is plain wrong. Period. No 2 ways about it. Coming here under the guise of giving newbies a chance to gain some expericence and to build their portfolio is just plain bullsh1t!!!

    What we're asking here is for the admin to set in place some guildlines to stop or at least reduce the no. of people coming here to try to exploite the photographers here.

    If someone is running an event where everyone is paid, why should the photographer not be paid?

    If the event/D&D is held in a 5 star hotel with overseas artisan flown in and paid a tidy sum for it, why should the photographer not be paid?

    If they think they can exploite CS for free service, would you agreed with it or try to protact your own community here from them?

    If they don't know the market rate, than it's them not doing their job to find out, why should we allow them to come here to ask for help to clear their sh1t?

    If they think that photography is not important, why don't they ask their own staff to shoot?

    If they want their own staff to enjoy themself, should they not pay for it?

    If they think photography are just some kid's hobby which they don't need to pay any attention/money to, should we not educate them?

    If they think CSers here are just plain easy to exploite, should those who know better not voice their concern?

    Are we really a community without self respect that we should allow exploiters to think as I've mentioned above?

    Should we be a community where we just keep quite when we see thing wrong?

    We're not talking about charity work here. Some of us here were with the PhotoAid Charity Drive for the Tsumani Victims. At lease 90% of the people invlove are CSers. Everyone gave their time, skills and whatever they can give for a cause. Every single cent goes towards the charity drive with the core group paying out of their own pockets to keep the drive going.

    For charity we'll try our best but not for exploiters.
    Last edited by yqt; 19th March 2007 at 04:25 PM. Reason: edit for bad typo
    I get paid more shooting part time ...... damn, I should find more time to shoot part time

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by yqt View Post
    I'm not even going so far to the stage where the photographer is being sued. I just fail to understand how yourself, as a Mod. here can accept that anyone can come here to ask for cheap/free photographer to exploite while paying good money to his/her other suppliers? Using your posting above, Chao Kuan is PAID, launch site owner is PAID, the stage desingers are PAID, the MCs are PAID, in fact everyone down to the guy who sweeps the floor after the event is PAID BUT the photographer is NOT PAID. And you can agreed with that???!!!
    Actually as an amateur/hobbysit, I don't care how much they earn and pay me nothing, if they got what I want (shooting star I admired, or some well know brand to support my portfolio/for bragging) for my own collection or portfolio, I don't mind shooting for free. And I don't see that as an exploitation. Probably because I am not a "Pro" , sure some extra/money to show their appreciation would be better.

    Whether it meet their standard or not, it's not my concern, it's caveat emptor, since they ask for free shoot/low pay shoot. If they want to ensure the quality, they should pay for the "Pro" , unless I sign a contract with them.

    OT aside, Satay really deserve to be flamed .
    Last edited by zcf; 19th March 2007 at 04:34 PM.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Anti-Exploitation (Discussion)

    Aiya don't get your panties all bunched up lah.

    If I want to do for free, and others get paid, it's my business what.

    Anyway, being the official photog has its perks like being able to shoot from certain areas which are restricted to the rest of the public photogs.

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