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Thread: Working together!

  1. #1

    Default Working together!

    I have been thinking about how to have a more healthy photography industry lately and get everyone to work together as a family rather than enemy.


    If you are interested, let's talk



  2. #2
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    Default Re: Working together!

    First principle of business. You have no friends. All other competitors are your enemies on the battlefield of fighting for clients. But of course, the "fighting" need not necessarily be the ugly variety.

    By "family", sure, if you're not talking about work. A guild/club for activities OTHER than photography for photographers might work. Maybe a lim-kopi club or something along those lines.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Working together!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yatlapball View Post
    First principle of business. You have no friends. All other competitors are your enemies on the battlefield of fighting for clients. But of course, the "fighting" need not necessarily be the ugly variety.

    By "family", sure, if you're not talking about work. A guild/club for activities OTHER than photography for photographers might work. Maybe a lim-kopi club or something along those lines.

    Why is that? If that's the case, why did HP and Compaq merged? Sony and Ericsson joint together to form SonyEricsson?

    Why limit yourself by one man band business, why can't people join together to form a photography company, work together and have the same goal?

    Forming a lim-kopi club is for people to lim kopi only, not to do business. By forming all sorts of network does not help much in making this industry healthier, as least I don't think so. Its probably just another way for the one who formed this kind of network to make more money that's all, just like WPJA.

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    Default Re: Working together!

    Oh. My bad. You were talking about partnerships then? Sorry to have misinterpreted your intention.

    Maybe catchlights can give an insight... foto-u has a whole bunch of photogs and even a MUA in their team

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Working together!

    On 2nd thoughts, maybe I did interpret it correctly.

    You mentioned merging/cooperation between companies. When they become one entity, aren't they still out competing against other entities?

    As long as business is profit-driven, and self-survival, how can "peace" happen? It is a fact that modern man is not and cannot be living in an altruistic society, that's just the way we are.

    Unless of course, maybe something like "The One and Only Board of Professional Photographers" is set up, dictating that everyone will charge only one fixed rate. (which is impossible really)
    Last edited by Yatlapball; 9th February 2007 at 06:50 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Working together!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yatlapball View Post
    Oh. My bad. You were talking about partnerships then? Sorry to have misinterpreted your intention.

    Maybe catchlights can give an insight... foto-u has a whole bunch of photogs and even a MUA in their team
    It's ok, my fault for not making it clear. :P

    Do u mean something like Chris Ling's company? One owner of the company but many people working under them? If so, I don't mean that. If partnership like foto-u where individual have their own contact and number for customers to call, that's also not what I am looking forward to, it's basically individual photographer so called work together and sharing resources, although this is one of my intention too but I would prefer to have a single point of contact. Correct me if I am wrong.

    And I don't mean only photography business haha, any biz related to photography I am also interested. :P

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    Default Re: Working together!

    Single point of contact...

    If I read you correctly your business model would be something like this:

    10 photographers forming a company. XYZ Studios. Mr. Frontman well... fronts the company He could be a hired help, or one of the 10 mentioned photogs. Basically he is the single POC for clients.

    Client is not allowed to specify which photographer he wants. Mr. Frontman assigns the photographer.

    All 10 photographers split the profits earned from each assignment.

    None of the 10 photographers are allowed to freelance outside on their own. (otherwise that would defeat the whole purpose of XYZ studios having a Mr. Frontman wouldn't it?)

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Working together!

    I apologise for the multiple posting. (alot of other thoughts that pop into my head after finished posting the previous)

    The model I mentioned would only work if... all 10 photogs are... of exactly the same calibre. The moment one of them becomes better, he/she would surely want to venture out on their own no?

    I suppose thats the main reason why those commanding high-rates are always solo.

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    Default Re: Working together!

    Hello both.
    Maybe we could meet up and talk more about this.
    It's kinda slow conversing here.

    Anyway, this sounds like a bold ambition for the good of the industry as a whole.
    I am glad that you brought this up.
    Like in Hong Kong where the movie industry work together to fight piracy, local model agencies getting together to raise the fees and welfare of models and many others.

    There is http://www.ppas.org.sg/, it's working on this idea, having professional photographers to join this organisation. What I can remember after talking to one of the member a couple of months back is, they want to have more members so as to have a presence strong enough to get the attention of the parties involved to have a talk.
    Else the party would take the handful of pro photographers as whiners that's all.

    Important issues such as copyright, copyright fees and others that are important to the survival/earnings of professional photographers in Singapore.

    For me, I always wonder, why would you want to earn less, when together we can earn more?
    Currently, this is not the case. Many just want to get that project and thus provide impossible price or even at a lost.
    Of course as we know, this is call market force. Look at bubble tea. Short term gain and months down the road, all just slash the price further, compromising the quality. Most just vanished down the road.
    The photography industry can be repeating that history if we are not united and allow market pressure to shred us into pieces.

    On the business front, merging, collaboration, team work, partnership is the way to go. Doing a 1 man show is a slow death, or if lucky, the slowest way to improve and innovate. Of course if you are simply rich, none of the above would apply.
    Not saying that it'll be easy to team up. 101 factors need to be considered. At the minimum, either parties should not team up with different intention. The goal/intention has to be the same.

    I'm relatively young in this industry and am still looking to connect with like minded semi pro / turning pro / pro photogs to discuss about possibilities of a joint studio. Having 1 more alliance sure beats having 1 more competitor.

    Anyone interested to discuss further?

    Cheers!

  10. #10

    Default Re: Working together!

    Business partnerships are never easy, as clear lines have to be drawn on numerous issues. Often a business run into the rocks is due to the misintepretations of its partners and dissentions occur. I tend to agree with the views of Yatlapball.

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    Default Re: Working together!

    Thanks for the reply.
    No doubt nothing is easy, especially partnership. Everything has it's risk and danger.
    If we just sit and contemplate on the risk and fear, and not doing anything,
    nothing can ever happen.

    That's why a clear aim/goal/direction/communication is neccessary.
    Even a prenup can be discused.
    If both parties are serious about it, plan, prepare as much as possible for better or worse,
    things are still possible.

    The worst thing in life is not failure, but the fear of failure preventing you from doing anything at all.

    A storm is coming. Are you going to stand on the same spot for fear of the dark and unchartered path infront of you?



    Quote Originally Posted by snowspeeder View Post
    Business partnerships are never easy, as clear lines have to be drawn on numerous issues. Often a business run into the rocks is due to the misintepretations of its partners and dissentions occur. I tend to agree with the views of Yatlapball.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Working together!

    Quote Originally Posted by Puffish View Post
    Thanks for the reply.
    No doubt nothing is easy, especially partnership. Everything has it's risk and danger.
    If we just sit and contemplate on the risk and fear, and not doing anything,
    nothing can ever happen.

    That's why a clear aim/goal/direction/communication is neccessary.
    Even a prenup can be discused.
    If both parties are serious about it, plan, prepare as much as possible for better or worse,
    things are still possible.

    The worst thing in life is not failure, but the fear of failure preventing you from doing anything at all.

    A storm is coming. Are you going to stand on the same spot for fear of the dark and unchartered path infront of you?
    I've sailed into that storm some time ago, and am still going thru it undaunted. I am certainly open for discussion for creative ideas and brainstorming.

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    Default Re: Working together!

    yeah! that's the spirit of a businessman.

    My bad should I sounded harsh in my previous post.
    Just wanted to spread some positive energy and hope
    in this topic.

    Chat again.
    Today looks like a good day to be outside.

    Cheers!

    Quote Originally Posted by snowspeeder View Post
    I've sailed into that storm some time ago, and am still going thru it undaunted. I am certainly open for discussion for creative ideas and brainstorming.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Working together!

    Quote Originally Posted by Puffish View Post
    yeah! that's the spirit of a businessman.

    My bad should I sounded harsh in my previous post.
    Just wanted to spread some positive energy and hope
    in this topic.

    Chat again.
    Today looks like a good day to be outside.

    Cheers!
    Not at all. Sometimes it pays to be direct to bring out the cold hard truth to knock some positive sense into the minds of two kinds of pple:
    1) those who are too fearful to try new things
    2) those naive about the starting a new venture who tends to over simplify the complexities of the biz itself

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Working together!

    Hi,

    let me quote an example, since most of us is in wedding photography,

    why there are so many many bridal shops/ studio in Tanjong Pager? ain't all of them are competitors to one and other? why must all go and open a shop at Tanjong Pager?

    The reason is simple, all of them can share a big pool of customers, any couple want to shop for bridal package, they either go to wedding fair or Tanjong Pager.

    For the same reason, we, wedding photographers should treat each other like business associates, refer contacts and share resources, vendors etc.

    To form a business partnership it is not easy, is just like marriage, it takes both parties working close together, I have seen many failures in partnership.

    another model which we able to study is the compass photographers, they brand them self together for advertising and marketing, but yet each individual are doing business as their own.

    hope these help
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Working together!

    I tend to agree with Puffish especially "together we earn more money thing", and the "1 man show" thing. I am looking forward to meet up those who are interested to join.

    I also understand doing business is not easy, finding the right partnership is not easy, a lot of things are not easy in this world, even taking photos is not easy, but I always believe in no pain no gain. You may always stay at your comfort zone and being a 1 man show for the rest of your life, no one can stop you, but I want to do something about it. It's your choice.

    I have no idea about how this PPAS thing work, although I know of such association. Perhaps some of the idea might be similar, but I believe it's not the same.

    Catchlight, do "Compass photographers" still advertise together, I haven't seen such advertisement for a while already. I know what you mean by the Tanjong Pager thing, but do they really refer contacts and share resources, vendors? If so, that's really good.

    Perhaps we should set a date sometime next week for those who are interested to join to meet up and talk about it.

  17. #17
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Working together!

    deencat,

    I'm not sure are compass photographers still advertise together, cos I'm not close with them, but what I see is a model which maybe workable among a few individuals photographers.

    as for the bridal shops in Tanjong Pager, I don't think they will refer contacts, but I know some shops take over other shops.

    we can and need to refer couples to others peer photographers, cos our capacity is limited, but you need to refer couples to someone that you can trust, someone same standard as you, or else, you are not helping the couple, but to bring troubles to them and yourself.
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Working together!

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    deencat,

    I'm not sure are compass photographers still advertise together, cos I'm not close with them, but what I see is a model which maybe workable among a few individuals photographers.

    as for the bridal shops in Tanjong Pager, I don't think they will refer contacts, but I know some shops take over other shops.

    we can and need to refer couples to others peer photographers, cos our capacity is limited, but you need to refer couples to someone that you can trust, someone same standard as you, or else, you are not helping the couple, but to bring troubles to them and yourself.
    Ya of coz sharing resources and advertise together is for sure a workable way.

    Refer, ummm that's a interesting topic, I did refer some to CKuang but not sure whether the couple really contact him after that.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Working together!

    Thanks Deencat for the support.

    Interested parties want to meet up on 15 Feb, Thursday evening?
    (I be away from 16 Feb for CNY)

    Just have a talk and hear about each other's experience and/or what each have to say.


    Quote Originally Posted by deencat View Post
    I tend to agree with Puffish especially "together we earn more money thing", and the "1 man show" thing. I am looking forward to meet up those who are interested to join.

    I also understand doing business is not easy, finding the right partnership is not easy, a lot of things are not easy in this world, even taking photos is not easy, but I always believe in no pain no gain. You may always stay at your comfort zone and being a 1 man show for the rest of your life, no one can stop you, but I want to do something about it. It's your choice.

    I have no idea about how this PPAS thing work, although I know of such association. Perhaps some of the idea might be similar, but I believe it's not the same.

    Catchlight, do "Compass photographers" still advertise together, I haven't seen such advertisement for a while already. I know what you mean by the Tanjong Pager thing, but do they really refer contacts and share resources, vendors? If so, that's really good.

    Perhaps we should set a date sometime next week for those who are interested to join to meet up and talk about it.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Working together!

    I'm happy to meet up with some like-minded people...just let me know where and when.

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