Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 89

Thread: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

  1. #21

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Quote Originally Posted by Clockunder View Post
    Try using a torch light and shine on a wall.

    How much the spot of light shone on the wall shakes depends on how far you're from the wall (i.e. similar to focal length) and how much you shake your torch light.

    If the light is recorded faster than any shake is experienced on the back screen (i.e. image sensor), then you get a sharp image.

    How big the wall is (i.e. similar to sensor size and therefore the crop factor) has no bearing on the amount of shake you see.
    Good point you have brought up. And now you have contradicted your claim. Take the torchlight as the camera. Assume you use a full-frame camera with a 50mm lens. Note the shakiness of the light on the wall. And now, pretend to change it to a 1.6X factored camera. You need to move back 1.6 times to have the same perspective. Note the shakiness of the light on the wall. It is much greater.

  2. #22

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Quote Originally Posted by wong1979 View Post
    Clockunder's post in no.8 seems to agree that the 1/focal length guide need not follow the crop factor. But it's not a valid point to substantiate the claim. He could have very good handholding tecnique. Need to have a comparison test between a full-frame and 1.6 Factored DSLR.
    The only difference between a full frame and a 1.6x crop factor body is the sensor size.

    If focal length and shutter speed is the same, the actual image falling onto the sensor and recorded is exactly the same one except for the crop.

    If no handshake blur is recorded for a full frame at a certain shutter speed and actual focal length, then it's only logical to expect no handshake blur recorded on the 1.6x crop factor sensor camera if the same shutter speed and actual focal length is used.

    So the guideline to avoid handshake blur is the same for both. Actual focal length is what matters. The crop factor, as the name suggests, affects only the crop but not the image.
    Last edited by Clockunder; 6th February 2007 at 01:59 PM.

  3. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Tanjong Katong
    Posts
    3,710

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Quote Originally Posted by wong1979 View Post
    Clockunder's post in no.8 seems to agree that the 1/focal length guide need not follow the crop factor. But it's not a valid point to substantiate the claim. He could have very good handholding tecnique. Need to have a comparison test between a full-frame and 1.6 Factored DSLR.
    Do megaweb's chart!

    Regards,
    Arto.

  4. #24

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Quote Originally Posted by Belle&Sebastain View Post
    its just a guide, with experience, even with higher shutter speeds will not garantuee a sharp image, the best way is to really go out and try with each camera, crop or not is a insignifacant factor for me, the weight of each lens and size of camera body and what state i'm shooting (clam, excited) is so much more important.

    no point going so by the book, that way your photography (art) is already hampered by imposed rules
    I agree with you wholeheartedly. That's why I was hoping someone would be kind enough to help do a comparison test between different bodies.

  5. #25

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Quote Originally Posted by wong1979 View Post
    I agree with you wholeheartedly. That's why I was hoping someone would be kind enough to help do a comparison test between different bodies.
    dun you get it? its only your own experience with yourself and how you handle the tools then you know what to expect, (eg your body and upper limps muscle mass differs from my) you may be able to hand hold a 70-200 f2.8 lens and shoot comfortablely at 1/60 @ 200mm but i'm such a fat snob and my stubby fingers and heartbeats so fast i will never be able to hold even a 70-200mm f4 less get a decent shot at 1/500.

    it boils down to your OWN EXPERIENCE, not others to understand what shutter speeds you are able to hand hold at.

  6. #26

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Quote Originally Posted by Belle&Sebastain View Post
    dun you get it? its only your own experience with yourself and how you handle the tools then you know what to expect, (eg your body and upper limps muscle mass differs from my) you may be able to hand hold a 70-200 f2.8 lens and shoot comfortablely at 1/60 @ 200mm but i'm such a fat snob and my stubby fingers and heartbeats so fast i will never be able to hold even a 70-200mm f4 less get a decent shot at 1/500.

    it boils down to your OWN EXPERIENCE, not others to understand what shutter speeds you are able to hand hold at.
    I agree with you on "not necessary to follow by the book". Re-read my post no.13 to comprehend my intentions.

  7. #27

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Quote Originally Posted by wong1979 View Post
    I agree with you on "not necessary to follow by the book". Re-read my post no.13 to comprehend my intentions.
    please read post 2, and my last post, even you are a beginner.

    rule 1, its just a guide, try it and try lower speeds and keep shooting until you fine your handholdabililty rules.

    rule 2, crop cam or full frame, if it matters, refer to rule 1

    aiyo you guys are just so technical about rules.... break rules, make your own.
    Last edited by Belle&Sebastain; 6th February 2007 at 01:38 PM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Quote Originally Posted by wong1979 View Post
    Good point you have brought up. And now you have contradicted your claim. Take the torchlight as the camera. Assume you use a full-frame camera with a 50mm lens. Note the shakiness of the light on the wall. And now, pretend to change it to a 1.6X factored camera. You need to move back 1.6 times to have the same perspective. Note the shakiness of the light on the wall. It is much greater.
    Nope. I didn't contradict myself. You're apparently confused now because you've brought in another variable (i.e. different focal length) and mistaken that distance between the torchlight and the wall is the shooting distance.

    In my e.g.,
    1) distance between torchlight and wall is the focal length used.

    Here we're talking about a particular same focal length (e.g. 200mm) which in the e.g. is the distance between torch light and the wall and the question is how fast the shutter speed should be in order to avoid handshake blur being recorded if the focal length is for e.g. 200mm.

    2) Distance between torchlight and wall is not the shooting distance.

    Once you stand further away in the torch light example, you're actually talking about a different focal length already. Of course if you use a longer focal length (i.e. torch light further away from the wall e.g. 320mm), then you require a faster shutter speed (e.g. 1/320) because the shake is amplified more.

  9. #29

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Quote Originally Posted by wong1979 View Post
    Good point you have brought up. And now you have contradicted your claim. Take the torchlight as the camera. Assume you use a full-frame camera with a 50mm lens. Note the shakiness of the light on the wall. And now, pretend to change it to a 1.6X factored camera. You need to move back 1.6 times to have the same perspective. Note the shakiness of the light on the wall. It is much greater.
    And to confuse you further.

    If you want to have the same composition on a 1.6x crop factor camera as one at 50mmm on a full frame camera, then you would need to use 31.25mm and stand the same distance away.

    So which one needs a faster shutter speed to avoid handshake blur? Full frame or 1.6x crop factor camera?
    Last edited by Clockunder; 6th February 2007 at 01:46 PM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Chill guys......

    There is IS or VR to throw into the equation and consider to get steady shots.

  11. #31

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Here are some articles on the internet for your reference:

    From cambridgeincolor:

    A common rule of thumb for estimating how fast the exposure needs to be for a given focal length is the one over focal length rule. This states that for a 35 mm camera, the exposure time needs to be at least as fast as one over the focal length in seconds. In other words, when using a 200 mm focal length on a 35 mm camera, the exposure time needs to be at least 1/200 seconds-- otherwise blurring may be hard to avoid. Keep in mind that this rule is just for rough guidance; some may be able to hand hold a shot for much longer or shorter times than this rule estimates. For users of digital cameras with cropped sensors, one needs to convert into a 35 mm equivalent focal length.

    From wikipedia:

    The extra amount of enlargement required with smaller-format cameras increases the blur due to defocus, and also increases the blur due to camera motion (shake). As a result, the focal length that can be reliably hand-held at a given shutter speed for a sharp image is reduced by the crop factor. The old rule of thumb that shutter speed should be at least equal to focal length for hand-holding will work equivalently if the actual focal length is multiplied by the FLM first before applying the rule.

    And a very long but interesting thread, whereby the majority agrees with the 1/(crop factor X focal length) rule. Over here, totally opposite

  12. #32

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Good effort!

    I think many of the readers here have misinterpreted your intentions and therefore keep insisting "its a guide guide guide! just shoot and see!"

    Would love to uncover the mystery myself but got heart no energy myself. Hope you can find the facts and figures to substantiate whichever the result may be.

    For the sake of science to truly establish a common knowledge of facts and principles, go for it!




    Quote Originally Posted by wong1979 View Post
    Perhaps I should paraphrase my question:

    Should you increase your usual handhold shutterspeed if u are to switch from a full-frame SLR to a crop factored DSLR?

    For people who started out on a cropped factored DSLR, this does not matter to them because they don't experience it and hence the irrelevance of comparison.

    Of course I/we know this is just a guide and user mileage might vary, but read my paraphrased question again. This is not an arguement as to whether one should follow but rather on some basic fundamental issues which some may see not important.
    Last edited by ianpaice; 6th February 2007 at 05:50 PM.

  13. #33
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West to East
    Posts
    290

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Quote Originally Posted by Clockunder View Post
    The only difference between a full frame and a 1.6x crop factor body is the sensor size.

    If focal length and shutter speed is the same, the actual image falling onto the sensor and recorded is exactly the same one except for the crop.

    If no handshake blur is recorded for a full frame at a certain shutter speed and actual focal length, then it's only logical to expect no handshake blur recorded on the 1.6x crop factor sensor camera if the same shutter speed and actual focal length is used.

    So the guideline to avoid handshake blur is the same for both. Actual focal length is what matters. The crop factor, as the name suggests, affects only the crop but not the image.
    Spot on...

  14. #34

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Quote Originally Posted by Clockunder View Post
    The only difference between a full frame and a 1.6x crop factor body is the sensor size.

    If focal length and shutter speed is the same, the actual image falling onto the sensor and recorded is exactly the same one except for the crop.

    If no handshake blur is recorded for a full frame at a certain shutter speed and actual focal length, then it's only logical to expect no handshake blur recorded on the 1.6x crop factor sensor camera if the same shutter speed and actual focal length is used.

    So the guideline to avoid handshake blur is the same for both. Actual focal length is what matters. The crop factor, as the name suggests, affects only the crop but not the image.
    Staying at the same place to take an object, using the same lens on different bodies would logically yield the same amount of handshake when examining the cropped (full-frame portion) against the uncropped (Crop-factored picture). I do not argue this. But this is known as a crop. We take a picture as a whole, and not just a crop. It's just that when we use a crop factored camera, we think we take the picture as a whole, which it is actually.

    Think about this scenario:

    I want to take a picture of a model from head to toe. I use a 50mm lens on a 1Ds and I have to move (N)meters away from her. I use a certain shutterspeed to take the picture. And in this instance, I chose 1/50 secs which, according to the rule, is just a guide.

    Now, using the same lens on a 400D, I would have to move back (N X 1.6)meters away from her in order to capture the same image. Should I still use 1/50 secs even though the distance has increase? It's only logical that I have to increase my shutterspeed to compensate for the increase in shake due to the longer distance.

    That being said, to compare fairly, object image on sensor have to be of the same size. You have to increase the shooting distance using a 400D with the same lens which translate to more evident handshake.

    Perhaps an Olympus DSLR user can better attest to it since their sensor size is 1/2 of the 35mm format. More convincingly, if people with a digital camera (crop factor of 5) with focal length of up to 70mm (350mm in 35mm format equivalent) can attest. Can you shoot comfortably at 1/80 secs on the tele end (without IS of course)? Clockunder has proved he can. But that's only him.

  15. #35

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Quote Originally Posted by wong1979 View Post
    Here are some articles on the internet for your reference:

    From cambridgeincolor:

    A common rule of thumb for estimating how fast the exposure needs to be for a given focal length is the one over focal length rule. This states that for a 35 mm camera, the exposure time needs to be at least as fast as one over the focal length in seconds. In other words, when using a 200 mm focal length on a 35 mm camera, the exposure time needs to be at least 1/200 seconds-- otherwise blurring may be hard to avoid. Keep in mind that this rule is just for rough guidance; some may be able to hand hold a shot for much longer or shorter times than this rule estimates. For users of digital cameras with cropped sensors, one needs to convert into a 35 mm equivalent focal length.

    From wikipedia:

    The extra amount of enlargement required with smaller-format cameras increases the blur due to defocus, and also increases the blur due to camera motion (shake). As a result, the focal length that can be reliably hand-held at a given shutter speed for a sharp image is reduced by the crop factor. The old rule of thumb that shutter speed should be at least equal to focal length for hand-holding will work equivalently if the actual focal length is multiplied by the FLM first before applying the rule.

    And a very long but interesting thread, whereby the majority agrees with the 1/(crop factor X focal length) rule. Over here, totally opposite
    I've came across similar statements about incorporating the crop factor into the guide long time ago but practical experience found otherwise and the theory also supports without the crop factor.

  16. #36

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Quote Originally Posted by wong1979 View Post

    That being said, to compare fairly, object image on sensor have to be of the same size. You have to increase the shooting distance using a 400D with the same lens which translate to more evident handshake.

    Correct about 2 things :

    1) The object image on the sensor have to be the same size.
    and
    2) The same lens have to be used on the 400D as well as the full frame.

    But then, if your shooting distance is different but at the same focal length in order to have the same composition on different sensor sizes, then the actual object image on the sensor is different in size already. If you stand further away, the actual object image on the sensor is smaller.

    Only if you stand the same distance and use the same lens @same focal length, then the actual object image size on the sensor is the same.

    Think about it.

    If you're saying that you should take into account different shooting distance on different sensor sizes, then you are also indirectly saying that the guideline has to take into account the shooting distance, meaning that you also have to take into account the shooting distance even on the same camera 400D but different shooting distance. Are you trying to say that shutter speed required to avoid handshake blur will vary, depending of the shooting distance even though the same focal length (e.g. 50mm) is used? Where in the guideline did this difference in shooting distance comes in?

    What you're indirectly saying when you say that you have to account for different shooting distance on different sensor sizes :

    If @50mm on full frame at 5 metres away : 1/50.
    @50mm on 1.6x crop factor camera and shoot at 8 metres away : 1/(50x1.6) = 1/80

    @50mm on 1.6x crop factor camera, 16 metres away : 1/(50x1.6x16/8) = 1/160
    @50mm on 1.6x crop factor camera, landscape with main objects at 100m away : 1/(50x1.6x100/8) = 1/1000

    What is your required shutter speed @50mm on full frame at 8 metres away? After taking this picture and if you crop this picture taken at 50mm at 8m away, the actual image size on the image sensor is the same as and also exactly the same composition as the one taken @50mm on a 1.6x crop factor camera 8m away. Obviously, the guideline for the full frame @50mm taken at 8m away remains at 1/50. Are you saying that the guideline is 1/50 if you don't crop but 1/80 if you crop?

    Only the amount of handshake, actual focal length and shutter speed will determine whether the actual image on the sensor shift before shutter is closed and the image recorded. The shooting distance only affects how big an object appears within the frame and therefore how evident any handshake is if it is present. It may appear contradictory at first but if you think about the statement below, you will get it :

    Whether handshake blur is recorded and whether handshake blur already recorded in a picture is more or less evident are separate although related issues.
    Last edited by Clockunder; 6th February 2007 at 11:29 PM.

  17. #37

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Apologies for the statement "object image on the sensor have to be the same size". What I actually meant was that the image recorded in the sensors have to be the same in composition. With this correction, do you not agree that the shooting distance have to be increased for the crop factored camera? Won't you need to increase the shutter speed to counter the handshake as demonstrated by the "torchlight" experiment.

    I reiterate:
    We take a picture as a whole, and not just a crop. It's just that when we use a crop factored camera, we think we take the picture as a whole, which it is actually.

    If you insist that they have to be the same in size as recorded on the sensors, then the only way is to shoot from the same distance with different body. Other than that, the APS-sized sensor will have to increase the width to 36mm but this has becomed a full-framed sensor. But I highlight to you again, the image on the crop factored camera is a crop(ie. a crop of the full-framed image).

    Shooting distance is not an introduced variable. It is part of the natural shooting process that one may choose to/or not to ignore it.

    Refer to the scenario in post.34 again and tell me if you agree to it. If so, my point is proven.

  18. #38

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    Quote Originally Posted by wong1979 View Post
    Apologies for the statement "object image on the sensor have to be the same size". What I actually meant was that the image recorded in the sensors have to be the same in composition. With this correction, do you not agree that the shooting distance have to be increased for the crop factored camera? Won't you need to increase the shutter speed to counter the handshake as demonstrated by the "torchlight" experiment.

    I reiterate:
    We take a picture as a whole, and not just a crop. It's just that when we use a crop factored camera, we think we take the picture as a whole, which it is actually.

    If you insist that they have to be the same in size as recorded on the sensors, then the only way is to shoot from the same distance with different body. Other than that, the APS-sized sensor will have to increase the width to 36mm but this has becomed a full-framed sensor. But I highlight to you again, the image on the crop factored camera is a crop(ie. a crop of the full-framed image).

    Shooting distance is not an introduced variable. It is part of the natural shooting process that one may choose to/or not to ignore it.

    Refer to the scenario in post.34 again and tell me if you agree to it. If so, my point is proven.
    There is no disagreement that the shooting distance have to be increased in a crop factor camera to have the same composition as on a full frame at the same focal length.

    In the torchlight example, as explained earlier, the distance between the wall and the torchlight is the focal length and not the shooting distance. It basically says that the longer the focal length, the faster the shutter speed is required to avoid handshake blur. It has nothing to do with shooting distance.

    I'm not saying that you must shoot at the same distance away. I'm asking : Does composition (shooting distance) matter in whether handshake blur is recorded? If shooting distance and composition is relevant, then you would have different guidelines for different shooting distances already for the same camera. Why the same 1/80 for a 1.6x crop factor camera taking at different distances with different compositions? Think about it. The answer is pretty obvious.

    I'm using the same focal length and the same shooting distance to illustrate what "Crop" exactly means and therefore why the crop factor doesn't matter.

    As I've explained quite clearly earlier, whether handshake blur is recorded depends on how much the actual image on the image sensor shifts before the shutter closes, regardless of what the image contains (i.e. its composition).

    A more detailed explanation will follow.
    Last edited by Clockunder; 6th February 2007 at 11:58 PM.

  19. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Legion
    Posts
    7,751

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    imho if the FF sensor have the same number of pixels as the cropped sensor, higher shutter speed is needed to get sharp shot. reason is simple as for example, a 1mm movement might cover 10pixel from a cropped sensor(heavier pixel density), but the same 1mm movement might only cover 5pixels on a full frame. this is also the reason why many say it is easier to get sharper shots from a d70 (6MP) compared to a d200 (10MP).
    I think the same reason will apply across the board on FF/cropped...etc.

    but as for the theory of 1/Focal Length rule, i can't say it is based on a FF of how many pixels(i dono film = how many pixels)

    i might be wrong, but this my little 2c.

  20. #40

    Default Re: 1/Focal Length & handholdability

    I have provided links that shows that crop factor needs to be factored in when using the 1/focal length rule. Apparently, some are still not convinced. Anyway, I welcomed any technical theories that may arise to counter the claim. Until then, the best solution is for someone to carry out tests with pictures to prove.

    Thank you all, especially Clockunder for partaking in this discussion. I shall rest my case here

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •