Do you Tell The Clients the Inherent Risks?

[dreamtheatre]

Hi,

Anyone will 'warn' their clients about possible uncontrollable events that will cause failure to deliver the final product (photos), like HDD crash, photos lost during the process of data transfer.....etc. Bascially, the things that will go wrong to cause the photos to be irrecoverable.

I think there is a possibility , no matter how much backup we put into our work flow. For the big time pros, think you guys have set template of contract to cover such stuffs, but us freelance "low-mid budget client-base" type, does anyone think we should NOT tell the client these things?

Comments appreciated. Thanks in advance
DT

[raptor84]

The PPAS site has a good set of terms and conditions to start with. Generally for company shoots if this stuff ever happens they might ask you to re-shoot. The PPAS one covers loss in event of natural disasters or accidents so unless its a major catastrophe I think you should have enough backups to cover yourself.

Generally for private clients I do not mention it unless asked for but for bigger contracts with companies its good to disclose...

[Del_CtrlnoAlt]

If its a contract, failure to deliver will automatically put you in liability, and there is of course other actions you could seek to reduce such inconvenience.

So talking about putting clause as to say failure on your system is just pushing blame on others that you cannot perform the contract.

The only way to void the contract is by either the person who sign the contract 'die' since its a service, so once dead, no more contract.

I wonder if insurance do cover such stuff... maybe against theft or something... but definitely not on deleted pictures and such...

Just think in another way, if you are having a wedding, then you hire a photographer that says hey if hdd crash i am not liable, then really suay, once in a lifetime event, all pics gone... can retake? no... get back the same amount of money is enuff to compensate?

[dreamtheatre]

thanks both

The thing here is that not try to push responsibility , but to let them know the potential risk.
Example is my BIGGEST fear:

while transferring from CF card to HDD, suddenly a blackout becasue something happen at Singapre Power side.....this way, all data will be lost! How to have contingency for such thing?

I am not talking about some lame excuses liek : "i din not back up on DVD or another HDD", or "I click the wrong button", or "my HDD is old so not so relable"....

I mean, the more you do this, the more things you realized will go wrong. We are just playing with chances. I dun think any one will say woth 100% sureness - NOTHING will go wrong.

There have been a few ppl I explained this to and 50% still took me to do the job, so this is where my delima lies....to tell or not to tell?

DT

[Del_CtrlnoAlt]

Originally Posted by dreamtheatre thanks both The thing here is that not try to push responsibility , but to let them know the potential risk. Example is my BIGGEST fear: while transferring from CF card to HDD, suddenly a blackout becasue something happen at Singapre Power side.....this way, all data will be lost! How to have contingency for such thing? I am not talking about some lame excuses liek : "i din not back up on DVD or another HDD", or "I click the wrong button", or "my HDD is old so not so relable".... I mean, the more you do this, the more things you realized will go wrong. We are just playing with chances. I dun think any one will say woth 100% sureness - NOTHING will go wrong. There have been a few ppl I explained this to and 50% still took me to do the job, so this is where my delima lies....to tell or not to tell? DT

U say, ppl think u trying to earn more money like to buy insurance...

Anyway, lets talk about the chances of having a blackout in sg? maybe 1 in like 365 days if u suay enuff, then probability of your home power trip, maybe 1 in 30 days, and chances of your CF card while transfering and a power trip, maybe 1 in a million... so should you tell your client that its a 1 in a million chance that you might be that suay your pics will all be gone?

And whatever there is, there is always ways to counter any possible problem. Adding a UPS to your system like i do, eliminate this error already. Its always recommended that you should have a UPS on every computer, but not everyone do that.

Maybe some thoughts on your issue, lets say you tell your client you are not covered by theft, and suay suay after wedding about 11am u leave, and u kena rob. no chance to backup the image, and everything is gone, u lose money already, and its almost impossible to pay them the amount they pay you back. How to rectify? Report police also no use now.

[dreamtheatre]

ya lor. generally spaking lah, so just a matter of telling the client the risk I think is fair, the objectvie is not to use it as an excuse but give fair warning in inforeseen event.. Whether the unforeseen event is a 'good enough' reason is between the clent and the photog.

like before a surgery, the doctor also must tell the paitien the risk mah, right? I dun thkn any doctor in the worl d so garang to tell the paitins '100%' no risk.

after this disuceeion 9at least till now), I think I will continue to tell potentaial clients the MAJOR things that will go wrong and also the kind of coverage of my back-up plans. then let them decide.

No body wants to screw up wedding photos, but life is full of surprisses. I wonder if any photog can honestly tell their clients 100% garrentee sure sure will nothing go wrong.

last tiem shooting film, worry about the printer screw up the processing, now shoot digital, ALL screw up is on the photog ..heheheee

wedding assignemtns is one of the those 'cannot screw up' job. but besides taxation and death, I really cannot think of anything else in this world that is 'for sure'.

DT

Thanks DCA, UPS hor,, Y I din thik of that??? Thanks!!

[Del_CtrlnoAlt]

No problem lah, i always believe if there is a problem, there is sure a solution, and before any problem there is a precaution, just whether u heed or not.

[dreamtheatre]

Originally Posted by Del_CtrlnoAlt No problem lah, i always believe if there is a problem, there is sure a solution, and before any problem there is a precaution, just whether u heed or not.

hahah!!! yes!

but hor, finding solution is esay . finding potential problem is the hard part. I can;t solve what I dun know is the problem.

In the words of rummmsfelld, the 'unkown-unknowns' .


CHeers to all, happy weekend!
DT

[theRBK]

explain that it is inherent in photography, whether film or digital, whether experienced pro or new photographer, that there are times when s#@! happens, that you are warning them before hand unlike unscrupulous sorts who might not, and that it is in their best interests at heart that you tell them the very worst case scenario that would most likely not happen...just poh the clients as you tell them...of course only do this for new clients without much experience, cause for experienced clients don't really need to tell them anymore anyway

[Paul_Yeo]

as the photog, we must take all possible measure we can

if i took wedding , after burning to CD, i will store in 2 sites. just in case there is a fire or thief.

also, try to copy to portable HDD before u go back to your office.

[mpenza]

some don't "move" (just copy) pics from memory cards to harddisk too and keep the pics on the memory cards until the pictures are delivered. for important shoots, I'll make a backup copy of pics on a separate harddisk plus a backup copy on dvds. u have to find the best way to mitigate risks. if a card is corrupted, you could request for services to recover pics too.

if you can't deliver, you probably have to return money back to the customer too. it's probably the least you could do, especially for shoots (e.g. actual wedding day) that can't be redone.

[dreamtheatre]

yeah, agree with all your views. I think photgs(esp events one) should be paranoid.

I know of some AD photogs that dun back up on HDD or DVD. They must love living dangerously Anyway, not to judge right or wrong, whatever works for the individual.

For me, I take the usual flow of back up to my HDD and DVD after the 'day' event. I have no choice but to erase the CF card becasue I dun have enough space for the night ( I have 2X 2Gb). I have placed an order for another 2Gb. Feels so insecure with just 2.

I was told NOT to erase the CF card until the last momennt where it is needed. But for me to format the CF card would take about 30 to 45 seconds, can;t afford to wait if in the middle of an emmergency. Hope this will solve when I have my 3rd CF card

As most of the folks pointed out, shiet happens , so just take whatever protection we can afford and pray for a smooth shoot

DT

[Yatlapball]

I import. Do a quick check. Burn out onto DVD (not so kiasu do burn 2). Check all copies on the hdd, dvd and CF card are intact, THEN i re-format the CF Card. (and only when I am just about to re-use it, usually it would have taken the place of the spare)

Can't always take electricity for granted. Especially when you travel heh. I have gotten used to facing hours of blackouts/brownouts over in Indonesia. oya, itu biasa di sini (it's normal here)

[deepcover]

ok we shoot using the phase one backs straight into the mac laptop, thing about capture1 pro is that every shot is saved immediately, after shoot is done, i will immediately back it up on the portable HDD, and when we head back to the studio, we will back up another one into the lacie big disk. that is about it.

how do other studios do it?

[theRBK]

Originally Posted by deepcover ok we shoot using the phase one backs straight into the mac laptop, thing about capture1 pro is that every shot is saved immediately, after shoot is done, i will immediately back it up on the portable HDD, and when we head back to the studio, we will back up another one into the lacie big disk. that is about it. how do other studios do it?

er, not to scare you but recently on 2 occasions, know someone who shot the same way, Phase 1 back to Macbook Pro, but when came back to process, some files became corrupted...could only see the prob on C1Pro pc version or when file is processed...seems to be some prob with latest version of Mac C1Pro in capturing files...had to reshoot

[compro_1975]

Originally Posted by raptor84 The PPAS site has a good set of terms and conditions to start with. Generally for company shoots if this stuff ever happens they might ask you to re-shoot. The PPAS one covers loss in event of natural disasters or accidents so unless its a major catastrophe I think you should have enough backups to cover yourself. Generally for private clients I do not mention it unless asked for but for bigger contracts with companies its good to disclose...

where to get????

[dreamtheatre]

Originally Posted by theRBK er, not to scare you but recently on 2 occasions, know someone who shot the same way, Phase 1 back to Macbook Pro, but when came back to process, some files became corrupted...could only see the prob on C1Pro pc version or when file is processed...seems to be some prob with latest version of Mac C1Pro in capturing files...had to reshoot

wah dui ! super PRO stuff also can screw up........what hope is there for us 'normal' ppl ?

haha, just kidding.

well. as so many of the folks here so elegantly put it, Shiet happens!

Weekend is here! wooohoo!!!!

DT

[Yatlapball]

weekend usually means work for many here

[dreamtheatre]

Originally Posted by Yatlapball weekend usually means work for many here

yup! and work means $$$$$$$$


double 'Wooohooo!!!"

[theRBK]

Originally Posted by dreamtheatre wah dui ! super PRO stuff also can screw up........what hope is there for us 'normal' ppl ? haha, just kidding. well. as so many of the folks here so elegantly put it, Shiet happens! Weekend is here! wooohoo!!!! DT

there is no foolproof, 100% reliable...s$%@ happens to everyone sometime......we can only try to minimize the chances and hope for the best