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Thread: Employ Singaporeans for what?

  1. #261
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowspeeder View Post
    Employers can hire whoever they like. It is thus up to the workers, be it local or FT, to justify their worth. At the end of the day, the one that is more 'hard-up' will be more likely to succeed and keep his/her rice bowl. No one owes anyone a living. It's a free choice.

    In my humble opinion, the only way for singaporeans to survice this global competition is to firstly, 'think out of the box'. Then u gotta be wiling to learn and try new things, strive to evolve in knowledge and skills. It does mean that if one is educated and trained in a certain discipline, be it IT, engineering or whatever, he has got to remain in that field for the rest of his career. Complacency and stagnantation is the receipe for failure.
    How to be thirsty when do not even know what thirst is ?

    Spoon fed since day 1.

  2. #262
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by xeon11 View Post
    and next, they will put up a front page article about someone who migrated to US years ago and finally decided to come back as he feels Singapore still DA BEST!

    If he cud not make it in homeland, do u think he/she can make it abroad.

  3. #263
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanette.z View Post
    This idea that Singaporeans will thought ourselves as 2nd class citizens never occured to me before. Ever felt so welcomed when I go back, no matter studying or working. Times I felt rather bad when my boss in singapore snared at foreigners....

    And most of my friends prefer to be back in Singapore after a bachelor degree or in some cases when they prefer to do a postgraduate or working, we prefer to be back eventually. Maybe you can say we are not considered as elite afterall. but I guess every bit of patriotic counts.

    About whether Singaporeans are lazy or not creative enough. I agree with the latter. With such a government, it's not easy to be creative hope won't be condemned by ***) But then people in every population follows the normal distribution, or the rugby ball shaped distribution. That is, the people at the 2 ends (rotten eggs and elites) are much lesser then the number of people in the middle.
    Of course we do have lazy people, esp those who are capable of working but still parasitic on the government. But what's the ratio to the welfare countries like Australia and UK? And if anyone dare to say Singaporeans in the middle of the rugby ball are lazy, you have to travel and see for yourselves b4 landing a judgement.(Some British got like 5 tea-breaks every day. And my friend almost lost her job in one of the Melbourne bank because she is too efficient and hard-working relatively)

    In terms of creativity, I have to agree that's part of our national trait.... That's why last time the Taiwanese politician, Li Ao commented that Singaporeans are 'stupid'. But then again, whenever you lose a thing, you most often gain sth else (vice versa) In our case, it's the honesty and loyalty that I haven't seen any other peoples can be so sure of. Regarding the foreign workers, I realise lots of companies employ them become they are more stable, as in, they don't anyhow change job (even if the boss abuse them). On the other hand, the bosses often monitor them more closely since lots of them are very used to corruption, making good use of the office, etc...(u know what I mean). myself trust Singaporeans than any other people because I know I'll seldom be cheated

    When you really don't feel good about so many foreigners in your working place, maybe think what you have already got and get improved in other qualities. You got to do better if you want to be treated better. I never believe being pampered by the government is a good thing. (look at Australia, the government even condemn Indonesia and Singapore for imprison and hanging Australian drug-dealers, etc...)
    Totally agree

  4. #264
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnlim View Post
    Despite these, why so many PRs from Malaysia refuse to become citizens of Singapore?

    They have best of both worlds! Earn enough money, then go back to Malaysia to live a much better lives than when they were in Singapore, taking into account of the lower cost of living in their own country.
    Plse go do yr research before you blab.

    Compared to other metropolitans like KL, Jakarta, BKK, Mumbai and Shanghai, Spore is considerably cheaper. Next time when u r there, plse check local cost of living.

    Spore's public housing and transport one of the most cheapers (relative to quality).

  5. #265
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by drakon09 View Post
    Did I suggest anything to shoot down your sustained nationwide campaign suggestion? By all means, I'm all for it. If it works, even better!

    Employers employ who they think serves them best; be it Singaporean, PR or expatriate.

    Will hiring purely Singapore citizens improve the corporation in any way?

    It's almost always the best man or woman for the job, and not whether you're a Singapore citizen. The Western countries have been there; a large proportion of the computer engineers in Silicon Valley are Chinese and Indian.

    Singapore citizens are not marginalized; BUT if they think we're entitled to better jobs and pay just because we're citizens, then I fear in time we'll be.

    Company owners /employes only wants to hire the best/most hungry. They dun care if they r sporean/msian etc

    Hack, if they can find good locals, why bother to pay top dollar for expats ??

    Plse use logic and not emotion and dun blame others for own short fall. Learn abit of self accountability

  6. #266
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoky View Post
    Hi Stougard,

    First of all, welcome to Singapore and thanks for sharing your comments on this thread.
    I applaud your praises for Singapore which I strongly agree on the four points you have listed.

    As you have mentioned that we have the armed / police / civil forces to deter any possible invasion or terroism. This is possible by the hundreds of thousands of Singaporeans as well as the second generation SPR serving the Nation to protect the interest of Singapore and it's residents (be it temporary or permanent). The security of Singapore has tempted many investers and foreigners to work here. (Which the govt is trying to keep them here in Singapore for good)

    Many foreigners have moved over to Singapore to work since the last decade and typically they would take up PRship for the tax incentives and subsidies which is very much comparable. And as Wong_se has mentioned earlier, Foreigners, SPRs and Singaporeans alike have to bear the high cost (along with GST, price hikes) of living in Singapore. However it has to be pointed out that a significant fraction of the PRs would not desire to live in Singapore permanently. (Meaning retiring here)

    As the market grows more competitive, Singaporeans and 2nd Gen PR comes to the losing end when it comes to getting a job. This is made so by views of corporate HRs whom themselves may be first gen PR (my current and previous HR manager in my last job were 1st gen SPRs) who weighs costs and benefits of getting foreigners for the job.

    I mentioned some of the "put offs" in my earlier threads such as disruption of work due to NS.
    Here's another:
    http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/CPF/my-cpf/H...p/HireEmp4.htm
    Employers have to pay employee's CPF while they are undergoing reservice.

    We also have forums http://talkback.stomp.com.sg/forums/...hp/t-7805.html talking about this.
    On the issue who feel that Singaporeans complain a lot. This is typically due to the tight restrictions that Singapore has. We cannot strike / demostrate nor we can't speak openly about our issues. The internet thus has become a solace for us to express ourselves. There's nothing / very little that we can do to help ourselves for we have seen many who tried "fallen".

    Hi Hoky,

    Looks like you did not understand what is Stougard point. Plse read again carefully. )

    Ka ka ka

  7. #267
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexlim78 View Post
    Sorry to say that but I seriously don't see it as a win-win situation. Cos in the end, the people who lose out are the singaporeans because they will be the people left to clear the S*** when the time comes. Its like guests at your party, do you think your guests will help you to clean up the mess after they had a good time??

    So Singaporeans, we should be like the national day song, "stand up for Singapore", you should stand up for singapore and start walking and working out of singapore. why mix yourself in the same pile of mess and get yourself dirty?

    Of course its not a win win ! You hav to be ignorant to think it is.

    This world revolves on demand/supply. And now Spore needs foreign $

    Good eg ...casinos in marina/sentosa

  8. #268
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    It is not about saying that Singaporeans must take the job regardless of whether of not we are qualified. It is about protecting Singaporeans and ensuring that we have a job despite competition from foreigners. Now FTs are getting our jobs because they are

    1) Cheap
    2) No need to do reservist hence no 2 week off from work per year and disruption of work flow.
    3) No need to contribute CPF

    In other countries, you are supposed to prove that the foreigner you employ is doing something that no local can do. Comparing to USA? Please their nation is so large, what is sicilion valley with its number of FTs? Merely a pin prick in the employement figures.

    Here it is different, the large number of FTs is turning this place into a TRUE global village. Just hang out at Millenia Walk at lunch time and you will think you are in Bangalore, India's sicilion valley with its huge number of Indian Expats. Hang out around anyway and the number of Chinese Expats make you think you are in China.

    If the country doesnt protect the interest of its people then why are we loyal? Why serve NS? or Reservist? Why pay Tax, work like dog get paid peas. And slave to higher management. While our expat "friends" pump their earnings back home, we struggle to stay in this "home" End of the day if being a Singaporean is so terrible, we might as well leave?

    But no we cannot... cos our Govt will say we are quitters, so we must carry on to slog for the higher ups and just be content that we are SINGAPOREANS....
    The word protectionalism reminds me immediately of Malaysian Bumiputeras (local malays) !

    Actually, I equate SPoreans to Malaysian Malays (ie waiting to be spoon fed)

  9. #269
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by rodel View Post
    Filipinos,
    not Philippinos

    Ka ka ka

    and I thought their english is best in the world

  10. #270
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by creampuff View Post
    Allow me to share some of my observations. Singapore as a country has no natural resources except its people. Now this country has always tried to get an edge over neighbouring economies thru a combination of innovation, technology, productivity, etc. all the value added stuff and competitive advantage that come by being a brain state. Integral to the concept of a brain state is a talent pool of skilled labour. However given the small population base, there is never going to be enough people locally with the necessary skill sets that the economy needs. This is particularly the case when alternative engines of growth are needed as rival economies are closing the gap with Singapore.

    Our economy is essentially a sub-contract economy where the inherent worth of people is that of being a factor of production. That's why if there are no locals capable to do a job in a certain field, rather than wait for local talent and expertise to arise, it becomes expedient to have foreign talent with the necessary skill set to fill the labour gap. It is simply cheaper and faster. Utilitarian and practical and it works for soccer players, table-tennis players to CEOs.

    That being the case, before we succumb to a knee jerk reaction to speak negatively of foreign workers or foreign talents, I suggest Singaporeans wake-up and take a reality check. Far easier to finger point that others are the problem rather than admit our shortcomings. From my observation, it is easier not to hire a Singaporean rather than a foreign worker. Why?

    The foreign worker is often more dedicated, works harder and have better work attitude. Painful for locals to hear but in many ways true. Typical Singaporean traits to name a few - picky about work, little or no loyalty but will job hop for money, hard to train, complains and whines, etc. Just a simple example, customer service here pales in comparison with say Hong Kong.

    For many foreigners, they know that they have a better chance of a better life if they work here than if they were back in their home country. In the same way lots of Singaporeans harbour thoughts of emigrating to somewhere else. For some with the means and skill set, that may become a reality but in essence thay are no different from the FW or FT in the search for a better life.

    It is all too easy for Singaporeans to get into a xenophobic mindset when pressed on all sides but unless we breakout of this idea that someone/the corporation/the govt owe you a living the faster we'll cope with the changes facing this economy. Sadly many Singaporeans are oblivious to this painful truth.
    I m glad if u r a Sporean

  11. #271
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeff49er View Post
    Back to the main topic, sad to say that there is a type of Sg employees who job hops, takes numerous MCs in short space of time, late for work, take extended lunch, complain work place is too far, dont want to work shift , dont want customer service job....etc.

    I am hardly surprised if any co would hire a foreign talent or worse, outsource / offload some non core business functions or non revenue generating functions to other countries.

    There are co who are concern about hiring married women too . One qn they ask is do you plan to set up a family? Worse is pregnant women in between jobs - dont bother to send your CVs. Co are very concern of the 3 month leave.

    Sadly to say Sg is not like USA. USA can afford to protect jobs for their citizens. Sg has to play a different ball game. No resources, not much land, we have to thrive on well added services type of jobs.

    I am not saying all Sg have such attitude. What I am saying is unless the attitude mentioned earlier is pervasive then we can expect jobs being offered to foreign talent or worse being off loaded to neighbourly countries.

    Can our ga ment do something about it? May be yes ; may be.............
    Plse dun wait for yr "garmen" to action on it

    thats the root of the problem

  12. #272
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowspeeder View Post
    Employers can hire whoever they like. It is thus up to the workers, be it local or FT, to justify their worth. At the end of the day, the one that is more 'hard-up' will be more likely to succeed and keep his/her rice bowl. No one owes anyone a living. It's a free choice.

    In my humble opinion, the only way for singaporeans to survice this global competition is to firstly, 'think out of the box'. Then u gotta be wiling to learn and try new things, strive to evolve in knowledge and skills. It does mean that if one is educated and trained in a certain discipline, be it IT, engineering or whatever, he has got to remain in that field for the rest of his career. Complacency and stagnantation is the receipe for failure.
    Totally agree.

    Does not mean u have a masters from NUS, yr career path is guaranteed

  13. #273

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemaro View Post
    Company owners /employes only wants to hire the best/most hungry. They dun care if they r sporean/msian etc

    Hack, if they can find good locals, why bother to pay top dollar for expats ??

    Plse use logic and not emotion and dun blame others for own short fall. Learn abit of self accountability
    Beemaro, I don't think you got what I meant when I started this thread.
    I'm stating that Singaporeans have a losing edge and are marginised when it comes to job seeking / keeping. Things like NS, CPF... etc... may put employers off.

    Please don't lose direction on this...
    Last edited by Hoky; 20th January 2007 at 11:46 PM.

  14. #274
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    having tried thinking out of any box & reading the many posts thus far, i sense tt some quarters of foreigners r being treated like an easy target of their frustration. locals in any developed country (mostly d west) who feel their job security being undermined feel d same way too.

    if d human capital is so important den those at d v top ecoleons (brains) of Sg cultivate an eye for spotting any kind of talent, not jus train talent from a selected fields. if there is an impression tt a disproportionate amount of resources is spent on a small group of talents, resentment will surely set in.

    words oni mean so much, an act by imp ppl can do lots. if every1 in tis little red dot is truely valued then a single solution 2 such a complex prob wont solve a thing, it will merely push d prob elsewhere temporarily.

    IMO, retraining 4 a diff job is a waste of time & $$. any intern will start slow & mayb by d time d intern is competent, he/she may in another cycle of retraining & settling in2 tt new job. like wasting bullets on a constant moving target.

    some talents r quantifiable some r not. if those at d top oni value wad is on paper den . 2 truely think out of any box requires a keen sense at spotting talents tt mayb unconventional- like a maverick?

    d ugly truth is rite here, dun hav a choice but 2 accept it. accepting d truth is d 1st step forward, oni time will tell if d nx few steps i take is d rite 1.

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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    Cos we have 3 types of Singaporeans

    1) The type that didnt make it and hence labelled as lazy, incompetent, whiners
    2) The type that still trying to make it and feel that FTs are the greatest thing is the world, like to rub shoulders with them, hang out with them. Date them. "SOooooo cool man... my friends so internationally global. I speak with an Ang Moh accent with them and so high class"
    3) The type that got smart and leave and become FT in other nations despite our govt calling them "U BLOODY QUITTERS!!"
    I think you really get a point here, there are 3 kinds of people :

    - The lazy one
    - the one who tries
    - the one who leaves and tries in an other country.

    What you say is true everywhere in the world and not only in Singapore. Foreigners who come to live in Singapore are only in the third kind, lazy ones don't come. Foreigners in a country are always and everywhere higher level than local people in average case.

  16. #276
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by stougard View Post
    Foreigners in a country are always and everywhere higher level than local people in average case.
    i have seen and heard of low quality FTs trying to pull things off infront of foreigner-worshipping employer. 'always and everywhere higher level than local people' you say, so prove it.

  17. #277
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoky View Post
    Beemaro, I don't think you got what I meant when I started this thread.
    I'm stating that Singaporeans have a losing edge and are marginised when it comes to job seeking / keeping. Things like NS, CPF... etc... may put employers off.

    Please don't lose direction on this...
    Good that you are brining the thread back to topic.

    I think what we should be talking about is not FT vs Poreans, but rather that, everything else being equal, pay, age, talent, etc, Poreans still loses out because of the NS problem.

    Going by the same logic, employers will also avoid employing newly married young women because they are likely to get pregnant, and go for maternity leave after that! But then this is not likely to be a yearly affair, unlike the NS problem.

  18. #278

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansel View Post
    I think what we should be talking about is not FT vs Poreans, but rather that, everything else being equal, pay, age, talent, etc, Poreans still loses out because of the NS problem.
    so we blame the foreigners for this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansel View Post
    Going by the same logic, employers will also avoid employing newly married young women because they are likely to get pregnant, and go for maternity leave after that!
    so we blame the unmarried people or male staff for the advantage of not able to be pregnant?

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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by amateur_photographer View Post
    so we blame the foreigners for this?



    so we blame the unmarried people or male staff for the advantage of not able to be pregnant?
    why can't people discuss over problems and come out with a solution? did anyone blame anyone for anything? the only people blaming others are those who blame Singaporeans for being lazy and whiny and of lower quality. why do we need to always blame Singaporeans? why can't people just sit down and look at the problem? is it because it doesn't concern you? is it because it's the problem of the government? who's blaming who you say? nobody denies the need to react to global circumstances, but is there a system to make sure that Singaporeans do not lose out in a competitive market just because we are Singaporeans? are current policies sufficient? are they really working? so many important questions, and all we get all the while, people blaming Singaporeans. sheesh.
    Last edited by eikin; 21st January 2007 at 01:14 PM.

  20. #280

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    did anyone blame anyone for anything?
    isn't that obvious? Fourteen pages long of thread should make you see it very clearly.

    Singaporean are blaming the foreigners for the advantage of not taking NS.
    And like you say, foreigners, blames Singaporeans for being lazy and whiny and of lower quality.

    Our long so called discussion here has got nothing to do with the problem that Singaporean has to serve NS, so, we are not solving any problem at all. We should question this to the authority. Afterall, we pay tax and we voted for them to represent us. But my next question is.... do you have the guts to ask this to the government? Or at least voice it out at the next GE??

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