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Thread: Employ Singaporeans for what?

  1. #241
    Senior Member creampuff's Avatar
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Perhaps one area that has not been covered is in the area of workers' rights. Unfortunately as a byproduct of history, gone are the days of the disruptive and adversorial labour unions in the post war years (a result of Communist infiltration). The position of the labour movement has been weakened over the years and pretty much neutralised today, no guesses by whom. Little or no strikes to speak off in recent history (maybe airline pilots?). So for the average Singapore worker, you're pretty much on your own.

  2. #242
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by creampuff View Post
    Allow me to share some of my observations. Singapore as a country has no natural resources except its people. Now this country has always tried to get an edge over neighbouring economies thru a combination of innovation, technology, productivity, etc. all the value added stuff and competitive advantage that come by being a brain state. Integral to the concept of a brain state is a talent pool of skilled labour. However given the small population base, there is never going to be enough people locally with the necessary skill sets that the economy needs. This is particularly the case when alternative engines of growth are needed as rival economies are closing the gap with Singapore.

    Our economy is essentially a sub-contract economy where the inherent worth of people is that of being a factor of production. That's why if there are no locals capable to do a job in a certain field, rather than wait for local talent and expertise to arise, it becomes expedient to have foreign talent with the necessary skill set to fill the labour gap. It is simply cheaper and faster. Utilitarian and practical and it works for soccer players, table-tennis players to CEOs.

    That being the case, before we succumb to a knee jerk reaction to speak negatively of foreign workers or foreign talents, I suggest Singaporeans wake-up and take a reality check. Far easier to finger point that others are the problem rather than admit our shortcomings. From my observation, it is easier not to hire a Singaporean rather than a foreign worker. Why?

    The foreign worker is often more dedicated, works harder and have better work attitude. Painful for locals to hear but in many ways true. Typical Singaporean traits to name a few - picky about work, little or no loyalty but will job hop for money, hard to train, complains and whines, etc. Just a simple example, customer service here pales in comparison with say Hong Kong.

    For many foreigners, they know that they have a better chance of a better life if they work here than if they were back in their home country. In the same way lots of Singaporeans harbour thoughts of emigrating to somewhere else. For some with the means and skill set, that may become a reality but in essence thay are no different from the FW or FT in the search for a better life.

    It is all too easy for Singaporeans to get into a xenophobic mindset when pressed on all sides but unless we breakout of this idea that someone/the corporation/the govt owe you a living the faster we'll cope with the changes facing this economy. Sadly many Singaporeans are oblivious to this painful truth.
    it's also all too easy to generalise the entire Singapore population as being lazy and whineful. of course there are Singaporeans who are lazy and whineful, in all other countries, you find such people too, and proportionally not any less relative to the local population, even in a society like Japan there are lazy people, but it's not their culture to whine, that's all. but who cares about those who are lazy? they are not where the problem lies. what about those who did not make it far enough in education, have had a decent job, is working hard, but is increasingly overrun by FTs, and faced with increasing competition from younger competitors but is with limited opportunities to upgrade their skills because of commitments beyond money problems? leave them to die? you can't just solve the problem by saying that there is a system running to give people chance to upgrade, has the system been evaluated? are those in need of help being helped?



    Quote Originally Posted by creampuff View Post
    Perhaps one area that has not been covered is in the area of workers' rights. Unfortunately as a byproduct of history, gone are the days of the disruptive and adversorial labour unions in the post war years (a result of Communist infiltration). The position of the labour movement has been weakened over the years and pretty much neutralised today, no guesses by whom. Little or no strikes to speak off in recent history (maybe airline pilots?). So for the average Singapore worker, you're pretty much on your own.
    so that's a solution?

  3. #243

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by creampuff View Post
    Allow me to share some of my observations. Singapore as a country has no natural resources except its people. Now this country has always tried to get an edge over neighbouring economies thru a combination of innovation, technology, productivity, etc. all the value added stuff and competitive advantage that come by being a brain state. Integral to the concept of a brain state is a talent pool of skilled labour. However given the small population base, there is never going to be enough people locally with the necessary skill sets that the economy needs. This is particularly the case when alternative engines of growth are needed as rival economies are closing the gap with Singapore.

    Our economy is essentially a sub-contract economy where the inherent worth of people is that of being a factor of production. That's why if there are no locals capable to do a job in a certain field, rather than wait for local talent and expertise to arise, it becomes expedient to have foreign talent with the necessary skill set to fill the labour gap. It is simply cheaper and faster. Utilitarian and practical and it works for soccer players, table-tennis players to CEOs.

    That being the case, before we succumb to a knee jerk reaction to speak negatively of foreign workers or foreign talents, I suggest Singaporeans wake-up and take a reality check. Far easier to finger point that others are the problem rather than admit our shortcomings. From my observation, it is easier not to hire a Singaporean rather than a foreign worker. Why?

    The foreign worker is often more dedicated, works harder and have better work attitude. Painful for locals to hear but in many ways true. Typical Singaporean traits to name a few - picky about work, little or no loyalty but will job hop for money, hard to train, complains and whines, etc. Just a simple example, customer service here pales in comparison with say Hong Kong.

    For many foreigners, they know that they have a better chance of a better life if they work here than if they were back in their home country. In the same way lots of Singaporeans harbour thoughts of emigrating to somewhere else. For some with the means and skill set, that may become a reality but in essence thay are no different from the FW or FT in the search for a better life.

    It is all too easy for Singaporeans to get into a xenophobic mindset when pressed on all sides but unless we breakout of this idea that someone/the corporation/the govt owe you a living the faster we'll cope with the changes facing this economy. Sadly many Singaporeans are oblivious to this painful truth.

    Whenever presented with the facts that Singaporeans are being marginised, it is always the same reason. Singaporeans are lazy, are choosy, incompetent or as one expat here says "lazy and afraid to make decisions" Errrrr really if we are really that bad, how did we built Singapore to what it is today. That we are no 1 in so many things that we are a economic power and a tiny red dot with some oommmph? And that is before we had little China or Little Bangalore here.

    For those who say that our forefathers were also FTs, well our forefathers stayed on, our FTs won't.

    Our forefathers call Singapore home, our FTs call singapore a stepping stone.

    Even the govt admits that the "love" for FTs and the measures to attract them has been a bit overboard by changing the amount of medical benefits and school fees between citizen and FTs.

    End of the day if one does not want to take care of one's own kind but instead choose to be "GLOBAL" and embrace all FTs. Only thing that will happened is "DONT BLAME ANYONE WHEN YOU LOSE YOUR JOB TO AN FT"

  4. #244
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    Whenever presented with the facts that Singaporeans are being marginised, it is always the same reason. Singaporeans are lazy, are choosy, incompetent or as one expat here says "lazy and afraid to make decisions" Errrrr really if we are really that bad, how did we built Singapore to what it is today. That we are no 1 in so many things that we are a economic power and a tiny red dot with some oommmph? And that is before we had little China or Little Bangalore here.

    For those who say that our forefathers were also FTs, well our forefathers stayed on, our FTs won't.

    Our forefathers call Singapore home, our FTs call singapore a stepping stone.

    Even the govt admits that the "love" for FTs and the measures to attract them has been a bit overboard by changing the amount of medical benefits and school fees between citizen and FTs.

    End of the day if one does not want to take care of one's own kind but instead choose to be "GLOBAL" and embrace all FTs. Only thing that will happened is "DONT BLAME ANYONE WHEN YOU LOSE YOUR JOB TO AN FT"
    you know what, in future maybe Singapore will become a true global village. the people are all 1 to 2 generation 'citizens' because after a while, people will just move out, and others just move in to fill the gap. those who stayed with a history of many generations in Singapore are those who are lazy and can't move. by that time, yes we can call all Singaporeans lazy.
    Last edited by eikin; 20th January 2007 at 11:15 AM.

  5. #245
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    you know what, in future maybe Singapore will become a true global village. the people are all 1 to 2 generation 'citizens' because after a while, people will just move out, and others just move in to fill the gap. those who stayed with a history of many generations in Singapore are those who are lazy and can't move. by that time, yes we can call all Singaporeans lazy.
    i guess Singapore will be the next Macau.. full of night life.

  6. #246
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by raincool2005 View Post
    i guess Singapore will be the next Macau.. full of night life.
    i don't know, i'm terribly disappointed with the sentiments displayed by some Singaporeans in here. as a Singaporean, if you can't even speak up and discuss the problems of your countrymen who have been diligent but did not fare as well as yourself, does that not make you no different from FTs?

  7. #247

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    i don't know, i'm terribly disappointed with the sentiments displayed by some Singaporeans in here. as a Singaporean, if you can't even speak up and discuss the problems of your countrymen who have been diligent but did not fare as well as yourself, does that not make you no different from FTs?
    Cos we have 3 types of Singaporeans

    1) The type that didnt make it and hence labelled as lazy, incompetent, whiners
    2) The type that still trying to make it and feel that FTs are the greatest thing is the world, like to rub shoulders with them, hang out with them. Date them. "SOooooo cool man... my friends so internationally global. I speak with an Ang Moh accent with them and so high class"
    3) The type that got smart and leave and become FT in other nations despite our govt calling them "U BLOODY QUITTERS!!"

  8. #248

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    On a more serious note, look at today's straits times front page. It says Treat Foreigners well but treat Singaporeans better. I believe that is the point of the discussion, however seems so many here feel that we locals deserve to be treated worse than foreigners..... then why do we be locals??

  9. #249
    Senior Member dominator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Singaporean?
    I do not bother much.

    But one thing for sure...
    whenever the news reported Singapore win what at what sports or games. Be it ping pong, badminton, swimming......I seldom or never feel proud of the winning.

    If you ever heard before from the Chinese local here "See, our china born ABC help SG to win medal again"...

  10. #250

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by dominator View Post
    Singaporean?
    I do not bother much.

    But one thing for sure...
    whenever the news reported Singapore win what at what sports or games. Be it ping pong, badminton, swimming......I seldom or never feel proud of the winning.

    If you ever heard before from the Chinese local here "See, our china born ABC help SG to win medal again"...

    I totally agree with you on that... instead of bring glory to our country at the games, It is a national disgrace! Every medal winner has a Chinese name and profile, Born in Hunan China, Born in Hubei, China etc etc

    If anyone read the recent interview with the sailing association head, he said this about our Singapore Sailors who got Gold at the Asian Games. "Most important of all, they are SINGAPOREANS!" Those lads I say I am proud of them, born here, bred here....

  11. #251
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by centuryegg View Post
    I totally agree with you on that... instead of bring glory to our country at the games, It is a national disgrace! Every medal winner has a Chinese name and profile, Born in Hunan China, Born in Hubei, China etc etc

    If anyone read the recent interview with the sailing association head, he said this about our Singapore Sailors who got Gold at the Asian Games. "Most important of all, they are SINGAPOREANS!" Those lads I say I am proud of them, born here, bred here....
    when Singaporeans don't believe in Singaporeans, what kind of a country are we? it's not just in sports, it's happening in so many other industries. i have a relative who recently quit her job in a renowned local firm because her boss (Singaporean) looks down on Singaporeans and thinks that Americans/Europeans are always producing wonderful works. imagine getting a foreigner to present a piece of work done by a Singaporean to a client, when client thinks it's good it's because the foreigner is good, when client thinks it's bad it's because it's done by a Singaporean, and the foreigner is doing the Singaporean a service trying to present it in the best light.
    Last edited by eikin; 20th January 2007 at 02:06 PM.

  12. #252

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    when Singaporeans don't believe in Singaporeans, what kind of a country are we? it's not just in sports, it's happening in so many other industries. i have a relative who recently quit her job in a reknown local firm because her boss (Singaporean) looks down on Singaporeans and thinks that Americans/Europeans are always producing wonderful works. imagine getting a foreigner to present a piece of work done by a Singaporean to a client, when client thinks it's good it's because the foreigner is good, when client thinks it's bad it's because it's done by a Singaporean, and the foreigner is doing the Singaporean a service trying to present it in the best light.
    Cos we are incompetent... u know? That is why FTs are the best! Even our own Singaporeans say that.

  13. #253

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Employers can hire whoever they like. It is thus up to the workers, be it local or FT, to justify their worth. At the end of the day, the one that is more 'hard-up' will be more likely to succeed and keep his/her rice bowl. No one owes anyone a living. It's a free choice.

    In my humble opinion, the only way for singaporeans to survice this global competition is to firstly, 'think out of the box'. Then u gotta be wiling to learn and try new things, strive to evolve in knowledge and skills. It does mean that if one is educated and trained in a certain discipline, be it IT, engineering or whatever, he has got to remain in that field for the rest of his career. Complacency and stagnantation is the receipe for failure.

  14. #254

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzup View Post
    Only FTs and Expats are treated like 1st class citizen in SG anyway... amusing, isn't it ?

    How can you say that?
    Are you trying to accuse our government are not doing enough for our citizens?????


    Look at today Straits Times (20th Jan).
    Our papers indicated....our government had given us HUGE subsidy.
    It even breaks down the amount of subsidies.

    See....our government is sooooooooo goooooood to us.
    Knowing that Singaporeans are getting impatient about the treatment they received different from F.T or P.Rs.

    and

    hence, came up this igenious article....to make us feel happy.
    and next thing you know, the Straight Times will comparing with the 3rd world countries...
    claiming no other government in any countries given so much subsidy to their own people.

    Afterall, this is a "Singaporeans First" year.


  15. #255

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by eikin View Post
    imagine getting a foreigner to present a piece of work done by a Singaporean to a client, when client thinks it's good it's because the foreigner is good, when client thinks it's bad it's because it's done by a Singaporean, and the foreigner is doing the Singaporean a service trying to present it in the best light.

    Ang Moh are always perceive the most creative people
    whereas
    Locals are just the workers.....This is what we are good at..following orders.


  16. #256

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    And some FTs say that only 1/3 of us have to pay income tax while it is so "unfair" they ALL have to pay income tax....

    Errrr what is so unfair about that?? After all when we go to their countries as FT, we no need to pay income tax?

  17. #257

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deceased View Post
    How can you say that?
    Are you trying to accuse our government are not doing enough for our citizens?????


    Look at today Straits Times (20th Jan).
    Our papers indicated....our government had given us HUGE subsidy.
    It even breaks down the amount of subsidies.

    See....our government is sooooooooo goooooood to us.
    Knowing that Singaporeans are getting impatient about the treatment they received different from F.T or P.Rs.

    and

    hence, came up this igenious article....to make us feel happy.
    and next thing you know, the Straight Times will comparing with the 3rd world countries...
    claiming no other government in any countries given so much subsidy to their own people.

    Afterall, this is a "Singaporeans First" year.

    and next, they will put up a front page article about someone who migrated to US years ago and finally decided to come back as he feels Singapore still DA BEST!

  18. #258

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowspeeder View Post
    Employers can hire whoever they like. It is thus up to the workers, be it local or FT, to justify their worth. At the end of the day, the one that is more 'hard-up' will be more likely to succeed and keep his/her rice bowl. No one owes anyone a living. It's a free choice.

    In my humble opinion, the only way for singaporeans to survice this global competition is to firstly, 'think out of the box'. Then u gotta be wiling to learn and try new things, strive to evolve in knowledge and skills. It does mean that if one is educated and trained in a certain discipline, be it IT, engineering or whatever, he has got to remain in that field for the rest of his career. Complacency and stagnantation is the receipe for failure.
    agree...

  19. #259

    Smile Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    with respect to insight today, if a singaporean buys a resale flat, then the citizenship advantage of $190,000 is reduced to only about $58,000. or a reduction of 69%.

    anyway, in the illustration, the mentioned flat was purchased in 1983 at $68,000. what kind of roof can one buy with $68,000 today?

    the said article was in straits times. how else can they say?



    Quote Originally Posted by Deceased View Post
    How can you say that?
    Are you trying to accuse our government are not doing enough for our citizens?????


    Look at today Straits Times (20th Jan).
    Our papers indicated....our government had given us HUGE subsidy.
    It even breaks down the amount of subsidies.

    See....our government is sooooooooo goooooood to us.
    Knowing that Singaporeans are getting impatient about the treatment they received different from F.T or P.Rs.

    and

    hence, came up this igenious article....to make us feel happy.
    and next thing you know, the Straight Times will comparing with the 3rd world countries...
    claiming no other government in any countries given so much subsidy to their own people.

    Afterall, this is a "Singaporeans First" year.

    Last edited by reachme2003; 20th January 2007 at 07:57 PM.

  20. #260

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    This idea that Singaporeans will thought ourselves as 2nd class citizens never occured to me before. Ever felt so welcomed when I go back, no matter studying or working. Times I felt rather bad when my boss in singapore snared at foreigners....

    And most of my friends prefer to be back in Singapore after a bachelor degree or in some cases when they prefer to do a postgraduate or working, we prefer to be back eventually. Maybe you can say we are not considered as elite afterall. but I guess every bit of patriotic counts.

    About whether Singaporeans are lazy or not creative enough. I agree with the latter. With such a government, it's not easy to be creative hope won't be condemned by ***) But then people in every population follows the normal distribution, or the rugby ball shaped distribution. That is, the people at the 2 ends (rotten eggs and elites) are much lesser then the number of people in the middle.
    Of course we do have lazy people, esp those who are capable of working but still parasitic on the government. But what's the ratio to the welfare countries like Australia and UK? And if anyone dare to say Singaporeans in the middle of the rugby ball are lazy, you have to travel and see for yourselves b4 landing a judgement.(Some British got like 5 tea-breaks every day. And my friend almost lost her job in one of the Melbourne bank because she is too efficient and hard-working relatively)

    In terms of creativity, I have to agree that's part of our national trait.... That's why last time the Taiwanese politician, Li Ao commented that Singaporeans are 'stupid'. But then again, whenever you lose a thing, you most often gain sth else (vice versa) In our case, it's the honesty and loyalty that I haven't seen any other peoples can be so sure of. Regarding the foreign workers, I realise lots of companies employ them become they are more stable, as in, they don't anyhow change job (even if the boss abuse them). On the other hand, the bosses often monitor them more closely since lots of them are very used to corruption, making good use of the office, etc...(u know what I mean). myself trust Singaporeans than any other people because I know I'll seldom be cheated

    When you really don't feel good about so many foreigners in your working place, maybe think what you have already got and get improved in other qualities. You got to do better if you want to be treated better. I never believe being pampered by the government is a good thing. (look at Australia, the government even condemn Indonesia and Singapore for imprison and hanging Australian drug-dealers, etc...)

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