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Thread: Employ Singaporeans for what?

  1. #221

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by drakon09 View Post
    I'll take you up on these points that you brought up. And no, I am not saying the burden should be borne by the citizen alone.

    Your suggestion of education is ideal, but are profit-driven companies that noble?

    Restricting foreign talent is not feasible, if Singapore aspires to be a global city.

    In bringing up the NS issue, I was not attempting to compare apples with apples, just taking a step back to look at the tree.

    Something's got to give; and in retrospect, I shall voice out the concerns of the TS.

    Why employ Singaporeans at all?
    Well, it's so easy to shoot down suggestions isn't it? You admit that something's gotta give, and you acknowledge that it shouldn't be solely borne by the citizens. Yet you shot down possibility of shared burden by eliminating possibilities before even they are explored.

    1) Companies can be profit-driven, and citizens shouldn't be concerned with their self-interest? The current situation is that self-interest is being marginalised.

    2) Restricting foreign talent not feasible? Is that spoken from evidence or generalisations? Do we really have an equally relaxed foreign employment policy in another equally 'globlalised' country?

    Doesn't matter. The truth of the matter is 'needs' right? So quoting yourself, 'something's gotta give'. The citizen's needs versus the economy's needs. And the giving party is the citizen again. And the suggestion for the support of a sustained nationwide campaign to urge corporate support of NS is shot down so easily. You have a better idea? Or the citizen gotta give?

    If the above is tedious, I'll keep my reply simple. So in your opinion is status quo is the best possible scenario, and it's best to leave the current situation as it is, and embrace it as the citizen's role to be marginalised as it is right now?

  2. #222
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by xeon11 View Post
    haaa same sentiments here bro. I've been doing the living overseas, back sg, living overseas, back sg cycle for almost the past decade and i hate to say that i just dun feel sg as the same sg it used to be anymore.

    dun get me wrong for not being a loyalist to my country of birth. I will always be a call sg my home no matter where i am as this is where my memories are and where i was brought up - not to mention the laksa, cha kway teow, kway chap makan places. Just that the recent spate of govt policies (esp. GST), over-reliance on foreign workers/talents etc. is creating this corporatised culture where the rich will only get richer, the poor will only get poorer and the middle class just get juiced further. A survey was even published on the straits times recently and the results speak for itself.

    my place of work is just the same as most of the forumers here, where singaporeans are the minority. are singaporeans really that "expensive" to employ? dollar for dollar, are we really that worse off compared to foreigners when it comes to efficiency and productivity?

    My answer is Yes and No.

    Yes - for some singaporeans who just complain for not getting "first class citizen" treatment, content with a 9-5 job, dun take initiatives, no promotion nevermind, just dun touch my rice bowl kind of mentality.

    NO - for most of us who ploughed our way up, upgraded our skills and only to find out later that our annual increment is lower than most of the foreign talents here simply because our "total pay package" is higher than theirs. Total package in this case means employer CPF contribution, annual 3 weeks NS leave etc etc.

    My personal thought is that if the govt is still doing nothing in the next 5 years, the situation will only get worse. Within my cohort, i have at least 35% of my mates migrated to
    Australia, Canada and even US and it's a growing trend amongst the younger generation as well. I have no idea whatsoever what's being taught in the singapore curriculum these days but as far as i remember, we have never thought abt leaving singapore during our younger days....

    dun get me wrong as i do welcome foreign talents/workers. Just that i reckon the govt should re-look at the scale of it and how it is affecting the lower and middle income earners.

    just my 2 cents worth.
    agree

    and also, one doesn't mix loyalty with satisfaction.

    when you're loyal and dissatisfied with what's going on, you voice your concerns and get discussions going.

    when you're not loyal and dissatisfied, you just leave and not look back.

    when you're not loyal but satisfied, you keep quiet and hope no one complains.

  3. #223

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    a quote from the recent straits times article for everyone to ponder:

    "I always welcome visitors to my home for meals, but i make sure my children are fed first".

    Last edited by xeon11; 19th January 2007 at 10:10 PM.

  4. #224

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by shinken View Post
    Well, it's so easy to shoot down suggestions isn't it? You admit that something's gotta give, and you acknowledge that it shouldn't be solely borne by the citizens. Yet you shot down possibility of shared burden by eliminating possibilities before even they are explored.

    1) Companies can be profit-driven, and citizens shouldn't be concerned with their self-interest? The current situation is that self-interest is being marginalised.

    2) Restricting foreign talent not feasible? Is that spoken from evidence or generalisations? Do we really have an equally relaxed foreign employment policy in another equally 'globlalised' country?

    Doesn't matter. The truth of the matter is 'needs' right? So quoting yourself, 'something's gotta give'. The citizen's needs versus the economy's needs. And the giving party is the citizen again. And the suggestion for the support of a sustained nationwide campaign to urge corporate support of NS is shot down so easily. You have a better idea? Or the citizen gotta give?

    If the above is tedious, I'll keep my reply simple. So in your opinion is status quo is the best possible scenario, and it's best to leave the current situation as it is, and embrace it as the citizen's role to be marginalised as it is right now?

    Did I suggest anything to shoot down your sustained nationwide campaign suggestion? By all means, I'm all for it. If it works, even better!

    Employers employ who they think serves them best; be it Singaporean, PR or expatriate.

    Will hiring purely Singapore citizens improve the corporation in any way?

    It's almost always the best man or woman for the job, and not whether you're a Singapore citizen. The Western countries have been there; a large proportion of the computer engineers in Silicon Valley are Chinese and Indian.

    Singapore citizens are not marginalized; BUT if they think we're entitled to better jobs and pay just because we're citizens, then I fear in time we'll be.

  5. #225

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by BBTM View Post
    Reservist make us proud. You think you want can get meh? A good way for us to have a break without wasting our leave. On top of that, our holiday is lesser than other country and so, reservist is a good way for friend gathering and some impt info abt our surrounding.
    haha... i second that. ,

    coincidentally, just recieved my eSAF100 1 hr ago... hurray . ICT again

  6. #226

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    I mentioned about the two-week mass gathering/holiday and the cheap beer and stout to my friend's wife... and my friend called me a traitor!

  7. #227
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by sORe-EyEz View Post
    if a large ratio of locals dun get married 2 hav kids later den no point trying so hard thinking of ways ard the baby prob.

    all these problems r chained-linked. like a dog chasing its own tail....
    Have you ever heard that some company serious don't like to have people taking maternity leave? Away for 8weeks with another 4weeks as flxi-off or an extension of that 8weeks and getting paid for the entire 12weeks when on leave.

    Do you know there are women whom are been fired from work early in their first trimester when the company know she's pregnant? Why? I suspect the reason is that 12weeks maternity leave.

  8. #228

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Seriously guys, anyone knows of any country that its govt treats foreigners better than it citizen? Name two, or maybe just one.

    I concur with a comment made about our govt not protecting it citizens with jobs, you will never hear of it in European countries nor the US. At least they pretend to do something about it and put up barriers.

    I would not mind voting for a fish monger as long as he has a heart.
    CS says, "We can't help you ignore yourself."

  9. #229

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexlim78 View Post
    So fellow Singaporeans, please do not be stupid to give up your citizenship, instead, go get a lot of PRs like our PRs and EPs in Singapore. That's the fast way out. haha
    correcto! already done that!

    Quote Originally Posted by alexlim78 View Post
    Well, Singaporeans need to serve reservists. Sad to say, but if we don't serve, then if one day our neighbours start to think that they can push us around and start war, who will defend the country? Do you think the French, Americans, Malaysians, Indonesians, Chinese PRCs, Indians;etc, will take up the gun and defend Singapore??? I think we have to face the fact, YOU WAIT LONG LONG. They will all be queueing at Changi Airport getting their 1st class ticket back home where they have their citizenship, so left Singaporeans to defend our small dot on the map. That's why they give us citizenship and call us Singaporeans. Because even for me, I'll be coming back to defend the country, not because of my government, but because my family and friends are here, and because of my band of brothers who will also stand beside me.
    second to that!!

  10. #230

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by drakon09 View Post
    Did I suggest anything to shoot down your sustained nationwide campaign suggestion? By all means, I'm all for it. If it works, even better!

    Employers employ who they think serves them best; be it Singaporean, PR or expatriate.

    Will hiring purely Singapore citizens improve the corporation in any way?

    It's almost always the best man or woman for the job, and not whether you're a Singapore citizen. The Western countries have been there; a large proportion of the computer engineers in Silicon Valley are Chinese and Indian.

    Singapore citizens are not marginalized; BUT if they think we're entitled to better jobs and pay just because we're citizens, then I fear in time we'll be.

    It is not about saying that Singaporeans must take the job regardless of whether of not we are qualified. It is about protecting Singaporeans and ensuring that we have a job despite competition from foreigners. Now FTs are getting our jobs because they are

    1) Cheap
    2) No need to do reservist hence no 2 week off from work per year and disruption of work flow.
    3) No need to contribute CPF

    In other countries, you are supposed to prove that the foreigner you employ is doing something that no local can do. Comparing to USA? Please their nation is so large, what is sicilion valley with its number of FTs? Merely a pin prick in the employement figures.

    Here it is different, the large number of FTs is turning this place into a TRUE global village. Just hang out at Millenia Walk at lunch time and you will think you are in Bangalore, India's sicilion valley with its huge number of Indian Expats. Hang out around anyway and the number of Chinese Expats make you think you are in China.

    If the country doesnt protect the interest of its people then why are we loyal? Why serve NS? or Reservist? Why pay Tax, work like dog get paid peas. And slave to higher management. While our expat "friends" pump their earnings back home, we struggle to stay in this "home" End of the day if being a Singaporean is so terrible, we might as well leave?

    But no we cannot... cos our Govt will say we are quitters, so we must carry on to slog for the higher ups and just be content that we are SINGAPOREANS....

  11. #231

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caspere View Post
    Seriously guys, anyone knows of any country that its govt treats foreigners better than it citizen? Name two, or maybe just one.

    I concur with a comment made about our govt not protecting it citizens with jobs, you will never hear of it in European countries nor the US. At least they pretend to do something about it and put up barriers.

    I would not mind voting for a fish monger as long as he has a heart.
    Not so much of "protection" for their citizens. But they do have a minimum wage system, and that helps; they have a social security net, and that helps as well.

    But the money comes from taxation. 30 - 40% income tax anyone?

  12. #232

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by drakon09 View Post
    Not so much of "protection" for their citizens. But they do have a minimum wage system, and that helps; they have a social security net, and that helps as well.

    But the money comes from taxation. 30 - 40% income tax anyone?
    Oversimplification, and as with your reply directed to my response, sidestepping my key concerns. I know the corporates are profit driven. You're side-stepping that it's human to be self-interest driven as well, regardless of logic (need to have job security even when the country needs me. Maslow's hierarchy of needs? Basic needs first ya?). Something's gotta give, but it's best shared then being weighted on a singular party.

    I love it when anyone raise the argument of '30-40% income tax anyone?'

    To that, I would say an astounding 'Yes'. If in that country, despite the 30-40% tax, I can be debt free and yet own a house and a car at the age of 35 or 40. Most importantly, not feel marginalised.

  13. #233

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by drakon09 View Post
    Singapore citizens are not marginalized
    Prove it. The sentiments of a particular population segment is proving otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by drakon09 View Post
    BUT if they think we're entitled to better jobs and pay just because we're citizens, then I fear in time we'll be.
    To think "we're entitled to better jobs and pay just because we're citizens" is bad. I agree wholeheartedly.

    But to have the people resolved to saying "we're losing our edge just because we're citizens" is a far worse situation.

    If this situation is not an issue, more issues will spiral. Now it only affects some segments of the population. I hope it doesn't spread further.

  14. #234

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by kelccm View Post
    My company is the same also, Singaporeans are a minority. My fellow colleagues are a mixture of Malaysian, Indonesian, Philippinos, Burmese, Vietnamese, Thais, Chinese(PRC), Indians, Blangadeshis & Sri Lankans. I called my company a "Singaporean owned Multi-National Company". Sometimes I feel that my company employs Singaporeans just for the sake of keeping the S'pore vs Foreigner ratio.
    Filipinos,
    not Philippinos

  15. #235

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiang View Post
    waaaaa going by this rate , being a singaporean does not give any perks, maybe should migrate overseas n then come back as foreign talent.

  16. #236

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Del_CtrlnoAlt View Post
    not really lah, u got see sg so called elites being treated as 2nd class?

    I think its the 'ahem' who gives you the thinking u are 2nd class... most of us are just worker class, get low pay, work long hours while these so called 'elites' just talk c*ck, sing song, then u guys will slog like hell even more... and end of the day they are 1st class u forever 2nd class... like my lect once said, a 1st class honours always 1st class, 2nd class always 2nd class, upper or lower also still 2nd class, its like a Merc benz vs a Proton Saga, no fight...
    agreed

  17. #237
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Quote Originally Posted by jsbn View Post
    Shout? Time to clean ur ears my friend. I was in front of the polling agent and she spoke in a relatively normal volume.
    Next election, I engage SGVIDEOMAN to record and let the rest judge if that's shouting.

    HE WAS SHOUTING

    陳綺貞 2010 [夏季練習曲] 巡迴演唱會 Cheer Concert 13 Nov 2010 MAX Pavilion@Singapore Expo

  18. #238
    Senior Member creampuff's Avatar
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Allow me to share some of my observations. Singapore as a country has no natural resources except its people. Now this country has always tried to get an edge over neighbouring economies thru a combination of innovation, technology, productivity, etc. all the value added stuff and competitive advantage that come by being a brain state. Integral to the concept of a brain state is a talent pool of skilled labour. However given the small population base, there is never going to be enough people locally with the necessary skill sets that the economy needs. This is particularly the case when alternative engines of growth are needed as rival economies are closing the gap with Singapore.

    Our economy is essentially a sub-contract economy where the inherent worth of people is that of being a factor of production. That's why if there are no locals capable to do a job in a certain field, rather than wait for local talent and expertise to arise, it becomes expedient to have foreign talent with the necessary skill set to fill the labour gap. It is simply cheaper and faster. Utilitarian and practical and it works for soccer players, table-tennis players to CEOs.

    That being the case, before we succumb to a knee jerk reaction to speak negatively of foreign workers or foreign talents, I suggest Singaporeans wake-up and take a reality check. Far easier to finger point that others are the problem rather than admit our shortcomings. From my observation, it is easier not to hire a Singaporean rather than a foreign worker. Why?

    The foreign worker is often more dedicated, works harder and have better work attitude. Painful for locals to hear but in many ways true. Typical Singaporean traits to name a few - picky about work, little or no loyalty but will job hop for money, hard to train, complains and whines, etc. Just a simple example, customer service here pales in comparison with say Hong Kong.

    For many foreigners, they know that they have a better chance of a better life if they work here than if they were back in their home country. In the same way lots of Singaporeans harbour thoughts of emigrating to somewhere else. For some with the means and skill set, that may become a reality but in essence thay are no different from the FW or FT in the search for a better life.

    It is all too easy for Singaporeans to get into a xenophobic mindset when pressed on all sides but unless we breakout of this idea that someone/the corporation/the govt owe you a living the faster we'll cope with the changes facing this economy. Sadly many Singaporeans are oblivious to this painful truth.
    Last edited by creampuff; 20th January 2007 at 08:34 AM.

  19. #239
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    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    Back to the main topic, sad to say that there is a type of Sg employees who job hops, takes numerous MCs in short space of time, late for work, take extended lunch, complain work place is too far, dont want to work shift , dont want customer service job....etc.

    I am hardly surprised if any co would hire a foreign talent or worse, outsource / offload some non core business functions or non revenue generating functions to other countries.

    There are co who are concern about hiring married women too . One qn they ask is do you plan to set up a family? Worse is pregnant women in between jobs - dont bother to send your CVs. Co are very concern of the 3 month leave.

    Sadly to say Sg is not like USA. USA can afford to protect jobs for their citizens. Sg has to play a different ball game. No resources, not much land, we have to thrive on well added services type of jobs.

    I am not saying all Sg have such attitude. What I am saying is unless the attitude mentioned earlier is pervasive then we can expect jobs being offered to foreign talent or worse being off loaded to neighbourly countries.

    Can our ga ment do something about it? May be yes ; may be.............

  20. #240

    Default Re: Employ Singaporeans for what?

    There is still confusion among foreign talents versus foreign workers. This confusion has been addressed earlier on, and will hinder constructive discussion. Before we run into the trend of regression and overgeneralisation due to the lack of knowledge and immediate experience, let me clarify my stance in the last few posts -

    1) I absolutely agree that citizen's are the country's most precious resources.
    2) I absolutely agree that no one owes us a living. A citizen with poor skills, aptitude and attitude that affects productivity should not expect to be handed a job just because of being a citizen. That's counter-productive to a nations development.
    3) My case is with the sentiments of marginalisation amongst several segments in the population that their competitive edge is eroded by 'just by being a citizen'. If you've just joined the discussion, browse through the past threads where there were invaluable contributions by those in the affected industries, as well as from the talents we had lost to other countries because of these sentiments.

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