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Thread: Who's rights will it be?

  1. #41

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Which comes back to the point that photographers have to explicitly cover their rights in a signed contract...no getting away from it.

    But failing that, as is the case with this thread, the contract between the agency and the spa/mediacorp would become important because by agreeing to do the shoot, the TS implicitly agrees to this agreement as well. So if there is a clause stating all rights are reserved by the spa and mediacorp and no one else is allowed to use the work in any way, then too bad...if there is no such clause, then the non-commercial use of the image in a portfolio, non-commercial meaning that you are not selling the right to use the image to a third party, should be allowed.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by ellery View Post
    Let ignore issues of rights since these were not clarified at all in your negotiations.
    1. you were paid for your services of shooting. and you gave them the files without any restrictions
    2. actress was paid by spa co (ie model agency was paid by spa co) - assume some model release was given to spa co.
    3. you have no model release, no agreement in place to allow you to use these images for self promo. - there is some slight gray area over the term "not using for commercial purposes" since self promo is a commercial purpose.
    4. Mediacorp has been know to be very protective over the use of the actress's images - ie they have a legal department is not shy to use them. Yeah I know you got rights but to defend those rights you need a bxxxxxxxxxr make that lawyer. That mean cash which leads us to those who have rights but not the means to enforce them are almost as good as rightless.Best course of action - talk to your contact at the spa co - tell them you are going to use the pictures for your portfolio - ask if there is an issue with this. They may not allow you to since logically for you to try to sell services to their competitors and show their concept. Or you could do first and apologise latter if ever - has its own merits and risks.

    Mmmm however some professionals here have been using the pictures they took of artistes in their promo work and claim that they have no issue. So does that mean if are friends with MediaCorp, you can use but if not then sorry... get readyto be sued?

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by ellery View Post
    Let ignore issues of rights since these were not clarified at all in your negotiations.
    1. you were paid for your services of shooting. and you gave them the files without any restrictions
    2. actress was paid by spa co (ie model agency was paid by spa co) - assume some model release was given to spa co.
    3. you have no model release, no agreement in place to allow you to use these images for self promo. - there is some slight gray area over the term "not using for commercial purposes" since self promo is a commercial purpose.
    4. Mediacorp has been know to be very protective over the use of the actress's images - ie they have a legal department is not shy to use them. Yeah I know you got rights but to defend those rights you need a bxxxxxxxxxr make that lawyer. That mean cash which leads us to those who have rights but not the means to enforce them are almost as good as rightless.Best course of action - talk to your contact at the spa co - tell them you are going to use the pictures for your portfolio - ask if there is an issue with this. They may not allow you to since logically for you to try to sell services to their competitors and show their concept. Or you could do first and apologise latter if ever - has its own merits and risks.
    Ok let go through again. No issue with 1 and 2.

    Number 3, in case you do not have a model release. You must able to proof you are the creater of the orginal body of works. So under law every where you are allow to use it to showcase your talent, or use it as a portfolio or for self promoting without any fear from the law. But because you do not have a model release or the work is commissioned you can not resale or release the usage right to an other parties.

    Number 4. Mediacorp is very protective of the artistes' image and the rights to use these images. Which is something we should learn to protect our copyright. But it is not the same issue here. As any artistes, photographer have the right to lay claim and showcase our works. So it is as clear a day and night. As long you do not release the right to another parties you are safe. Copying some thing in this day and age is as simple as clicking on the screen. If the person use the copy image without you saying ok to use it, you and your client can sue their ass off and get a lot money . But if you say ok then all sh*t is on to you. Using the pic for your portfolio is not one such case. Also what is logic to you really buffer me If the client worry that you are going to spread their concept before they use it. They will make you sign a letter of confidental it is a common business practise here. This contact will even have a dateline how long the client will need to keep the material confidental. Because it is not confidental once they start using the image isn't it. Thus you can happly use the image for your portfolio once the dateline is up. Mediacorp have ton of lawyer, who know law. So why would they sue you for something they can not win?

  4. #44

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    I was eating chicken rice today and see some kopitiam owner paste the photos of them with mediacorp stars. So like i want to build up my name and portfolio on my website using the mediacorp actresses that i took for a spa ad, the hawker owner uses the madiacorp stars to boost up their reputation that "even stars come to my stall to eat". Do they have the right to do that? isn't it the same for photographers who shoot for mediacorp stars? Why rights are granted to hawker owners but as photographers, why we are so scared, includeing me, that Mediacorp will sue til our pants drop!!??? I JUST DONT GET IT!!!
    Last edited by damienster; 26th January 2007 at 03:38 PM.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by damienster View Post
    I was eating chicken rice today and see some kopitiam owner paste the photos of them with mediacorp stars. So like i want to build up my name and portfolio on my website using the mediacorp actresses that i took for a spa ad, the hawker owner uses the madiacorp stars to boost up their reputation that "even stars come to my stall to eat". Do they have the right to do that? isn't it the same for photographers who shoot for mediacorp stars? Why rights are granted to hawker owners but as photographers, why we are so scared, includeing me, that Mediacorp will sue til our pants drop!!??? I JUST DONT GET IT!!!
    Well.. it's not quite the same. When you buy a poster you can put it up on your property...

    (I'm not saying that you can't use your photos for portfolio reasons. I'm neutral on that - no opinion.)

  6. #46

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by dnaxe View Post
    Well.. it's not quite the same. When you buy a poster you can put it up on your property...

    (I'm not saying that you can't use your photos for portfolio reasons. I'm neutral on that - no opinion.)
    So did the hawker "buy" the actor to take pic with them and paste at their stall

  7. #47

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by damienster View Post
    I was eating chicken rice today and see some kopitiam owner paste the photos of them with mediacorp stars. So like i want to build up my name and portfolio on my website using the mediacorp actresses that i took for a spa ad, the hawker owner uses the madiacorp stars to boost up their reputation that "even stars come to my stall to eat". Do they have the right to do that? isn't it the same for photographers who shoot for mediacorp stars? Why rights are granted to hawker owners but as photographers, why we are so scared, includeing me, that Mediacorp will sue til our pants drop!!??? I JUST DONT GET IT!!!
    Errr not really the same. In this case, hawker is "client", production house or mediacorp ask

    "can we feature your stall? Permission to shoot at your place?" Hawker say okay, so program went on air, feature hawker who have to sign release form so hawker becomes the model together with star. And when he or she put up photo, it is with hawker in it. This does not infringe any copyright. Besides normally the hawker would have requested and cleared with the manager on the spot that he or she wants to take a photo and put it up at his stall.

    The spa case is, spa is client, spa pay actress to be shot and the photographer got right or not is still being debated.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by damienster View Post
    i ve taken a spa ad for a mediacorp actress. Intend to put it in my website to build up my portfolio but called up the ad agency and the agency said "play safe davice not too". The agency say "might" need to pay mediacorp for ad fee if i want to put it in my website.
    those you shot during an assignment are usually bound by contract.
    check your contract again for this shoot.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by damienster View Post
    I was eating chicken rice today and see some kopitiam owner paste the photos of them with mediacorp stars. So like i want to build up my name and portfolio on my website using the mediacorp actresses that i took for a spa ad, the hawker owner uses the madiacorp stars to boost up their reputation that "even stars come to my stall to eat". Do they have the right to do that? isn't it the same for photographers who shoot for mediacorp stars? Why rights are granted to hawker owners but as photographers, why we are so scared, includeing me, that Mediacorp will sue til our pants drop!!??? I JUST DONT GET IT!!!
    Now it you I do not get. A few of us have already told you it ok if you use the pic only for self promoting purposes. We have done it with no problem or whatever. Then if you still have doubt why not enaged a lawyer and ask them on the matter. Because they are real expert on the matter. Please look at some of our top fashion and glamour photographers' web sites, you will surely see a few mediacorp artistes pictures there so they are surely going to be sue?

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by damienster View Post
    I was eating chicken rice today and see some kopitiam owner paste the photos of them with mediacorp stars. So like i want to build up my name and portfolio on my website using the mediacorp actresses that i took for a spa ad, the hawker owner uses the madiacorp stars to boost up their reputation that "even stars come to my stall to eat". Do they have the right to do that? isn't it the same for photographers who shoot for mediacorp stars? Why rights are granted to hawker owners but as photographers, why we are so scared, includeing me, that Mediacorp will sue til our pants drop!!??? I JUST DONT GET IT!!!
    its really hard to tell why MC want to sue you unless you show us properly what you/ "your friends" (century egg/ diamienster) shot and put up on whatever website....

    its hard to hypothetically explain when we do not really have a full grasp of what you are trying to say.

    so in other word, NPNT.

    and since you guys are so worried, and doubt our advices you are better off just keep everything to yourself and not post it anywhere.

  11. #51
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    I'm sorry Singscott, but with respect, I don't think you are correct. Could you point me to any sources of law which says you absolutely reserve a right to reproduction for the purposes of self promotion?

    From what I am aware, once it is a commissioned work, copyright doesn't belong to you. The only reservation of rights relate to use by the commissioner (which I will elaborate more on if necessary later, but isn't relevant here). I am doutful there is any reservation of rights to reproduce for purposes of self promotion (unless expressly reserved via a contract).

  12. #52
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    My thoughts are, if you didn't have any contract which expressly allows you to do so, you should avoid doing it unless you want to take the risk.

    If you want to ask, the person to ask is the ad agency, and NOT Mediacorp - they have no right to stop you from doing anything - and they can only do so if they imposed a positive obligatoin on the ad agency, which in turn would impose that obligation on you. You owe Mediacorp nothing directly.

    And it is really doubtful whether all that talk about model releases is applicable in Singapore. All discussions on model releases and right to use for self promotion could have been gotten from "research" over the Internet, which focusses on laws in US or UK, rather than in Singapore - hence the persusasiveness or authoritativeness is highly suspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by damienster View Post
    i ve taken a spa ad for a mediacorp actress. Intend to put it in my website to build up my portfolio but called up the ad agency and the agency said "play safe davice not too". The agency say "might" need to pay mediacorp for ad fee if i want to put it in my website.

    What abt those models we shoot at motor shows and we put it in our website? Did most of you ask to modeling agency b4 putting it up on ur web? Guess not right??!!

    Is it cos she is a mediacorp actress that's why she has high marketing value? But i was paid by the spa coy for shooting the ad for them. The spa ad paid the actress to model for them.

    So at the end of the day...can i put those pics on the web?
    Last edited by vince123123; 9th February 2007 at 11:57 AM.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    I'm sorry Singscott, but with respect, I don't think you are correct. Could you point me to any sources of law which says you absolutely reserve a right to reproduction for the purposes of self promotion?

    From what I am aware, once it is a commissioned work, copyright doesn't belong to you. The only reservation of rights relate to use by the commissioner (which I will elaborate more on if necessary later, but isn't relevant here). I am doutful there is any reservation of rights to reproduce for purposes of self promotion (unless expressly reserved via a contract).
    custom.

  14. #54
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Huh?????!!

    Quote Originally Posted by dnaxe View Post
    custom.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    I'm sorry Singscott, but with respect, I don't think you are correct. Could you point me to any sources of law which says you absolutely reserve a right to reproduction for the purposes of self promotion?

    From what I am aware, once it is a commissioned work, copyright doesn't belong to you. The only reservation of rights relate to use by the commissioner (which I will elaborate more on if necessary later, but isn't relevant here). I am doutful there is any reservation of rights to reproduce for purposes of self promotion (unless expressly reserved via a contract).
    You again? Are you a professional photographer how come you do not know the law of the trade. If you expect me to spoon feed you again. With respect pay some money and talk to a lawyer learn the law of the trade for your own sake or join PPAS. For your sake I repeat, because we are the orginal author or create of the orginal photography work even it is a commission job you have the rights to showcase your talent or use it for your self promotion. But not to release it's right of usage to another parties or any other purpose other then self promotion. You want to know my source let me tell you. From professional photographers whom have doing jobs using media corp artists me included to friends who happen to be lawyers. I am just passing on informations I know. Proof to me you know the stuff. Give us some information, not casing doubt and ask me to proof my points that I have share and say it for the good the communities here.
    Last edited by singscott; 9th February 2007 at 11:07 PM.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by singscott View Post
    You again? Are you a professional photographer how come you do not know the law of the trade. If you expect me to spoon feed you again. With respect pay some money and talk to a lawyer learn the law of the trade for your own sake or join PPAS. For your sake I repeat, because we are the orginal author or create of the orginal photography work even it is a commission job you have the rights to showcase your talent or use it for your self promotion. But not to release it's right of usage to another parties or any other purpose other then self promotion. You want to know my source let me tell you. From professional photographers whom have doing jobs using media corp artists me included to friends who happen to be lawyers. I am just passing on informations I know. Proof to me you know the stuff. Give us some information, not casing doubt and ask me to proof my points that I have share and say it for the good the communities here.


    sigh there are roughly speaking 2 different approaches to copyright law on this point - the US and the UK positions. The UK version roughly goes that as authors the right remains even for commission work unless the contract states otherwise. The US is of the position that when you are hired to shoot you lose the copyright to the person hiring you ie the commission party. In both the basic position will change if there is a contract that spells out what the rights are. There is unfortunately nothing layout in the acts to say that an author has the right to use his work for self promotion so much for basic rights.

    I am not sure where Singapore law follows on this but I would spec out the terms in the contract to avoid a lot of legal afterwards. Since no matter what rights you have in Singapore the copy right office wants you to go thru a civil suit to enforce your rights. Fine if you are a Clang and can afford it bad if you are a normal person without the means to pay for lot of lawyer fees. I doubt if every member of the PPAS can afford to fight out a major court battle in terms of direct lawyer fees and indirectly in terms of becoming a "commercial lepper" like what effectively happend to a particular photographer who sued and won against M1, rumour was that most prospective clients are reluctant to use a photographer who sues.

    Singerscot, while you are qualified as a photographer I doubt if you are qualified as a lawyer. I know I'm not. Vince123 has the certs to claim for qualification in this area and well he is careful about make claims since this is a speciality area in law. The fact that our case law on copyrights with respect to photography is still in its infancy makes this one big gray area.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by singscott View Post
    You again? Are you a professional photographer how come you do not know the law of the trade. If you expect me to spoon feed you again. With respect pay some money and talk to a lawyer learn the law of the trade for your own sake or join PPAS. For your sake I repeat, because we are the orginal author or create of the orginal photography work even it is a commission job you have the rights to showcase your talent or use it for your self promotion. But not to release it's right of usage to another parties or any other purpose other then self promotion. You want to know my source let me tell you. From professional photographers whom have doing jobs using media corp artists me included to friends who happen to be lawyers. I am just passing on informations I know. Proof to me you know the stuff. Give us some information, not casing doubt and ask me to proof my points that I have share and say it for the good the communities here.
    What I know is that we can use it in our portfolio but it should not be made public. However, the rights belongs to your client who hired you and paid you for the works. If they expressed that you should not use the photos, then you should not.

  18. #58
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Me again? Apparently I must have crossed your path before, but then again, I usually ask people who make claims without justification to substantiate their claims. You may be right, however, you have to show you are right with authoritative sources, and not just bare assertions. If you can show your sources, then I will admit I am wrong.

    There is nothing to spoonfeed here, just back up your claims. I can easily assert that Singscott is a liar and cheat or corrupt or rapist without substantiating my claims - I trust you see the point.

    Until then, I will draw your attention to Section 30(5):

    (5) Subject to subsection (4), where —

    (a) a person makes, for valuable consideration, an agreement with another person for the taking of a photograph, the painting or drawing of a portrait or the making of an engraving by the other person; and
    (b) the work is made in pursuance of the agreement,
    the first-mentioned person shall be entitled to any copyright subsisting in the work by virtue of this Part, except that if the work is required for any particular purpose, that purpose shall be communicated to that other person and that other person shall be entitled to restrain the doing, otherwise than for that particular purpose, of any act comprised in the copyright in the work.

    Next, I draw you to exclusive acts provided by copyright under Section 26:

    26. —(1) For the purposes of this Act, unless the contrary intention appears, copyright, in relation to a work, is the exclusive right

    (a) in the case of a literary, dramatic or musical work, to do all or any of the following acts:
    (i) to reproduce the work in a material form;
    (ii) to publish the work if the work is unpublished;
    (iii) to perform the work in public;
    (iv) to broadcast the work;
    (v) to include the work in a cable programme;
    (vi) to make an adaptation of the work;
    (vii) to do, in relation to a work that is an adaptation of the first-mentioned work, any of the acts specified in relation to the first-mentioned work in sub-paragraphs (i) to (vi);
    (b) in the case of an artistic work, to do all or any of the following acts:
    (i) to reproduce the work in a material form;
    (ii) to publish the work in Singapore or any country in relation to which this Act applies, if the work is unpublished;
    (iii) to include the work in a television broadcast;
    (iv) to include the work in a cable programme; andNote that exclusive means the one and no other - unless a license is granted.

    Next, we turn to defences of infringement, or acts which won't infringe copyright for artistic works; under Sections 35-40 - I only reproduce the headings as the text is quite long:

    Section 36 - Fair dealing for purpose of criticism or review
    Section 37 - Fair dealing for purpose of reporting current events
    Section 38 - Reproduction for purposes of judicial proceedings or professional advice
    Section 39 - Back-up copy of computer program, etc.
    Section 40 - Inclusion of works in collections for use by educational institutions
    Section 40A - Accessories to imported articles

    There is no way that I can prove a negative, ie that there is NO laws reserving rights to showcase your talent or self promote. The ONLY reservation against Section 30(5) is in the underlined portions above and the usual defences for infringement.

    Since you claim to know mediacorp people or lawyers, then please ask them to quote their sources of law. If you have really spoken to lawyers, they will be tell you the source of law, and I can guarantee they wont tell you what you are telling me, that is "I know I am right, and you are wrong".

    Once again, insisting that you are right doesn't help. You say you are right, I say I am right, in the end, there is no answer. Back up your words. Passing information blindly without knowing sources isn't the way to go. And taking an aggresssive/confrontational stance doesn't help either.

    Quote Originally Posted by singscott View Post
    You again? Are you a professional photographer how come you do not know the law of the trade. If you expect me to spoon feed you again. With respect pay some money and talk to a lawyer learn the law of the trade for your own sake or join PPAS. For your sake I repeat, because we are the orginal author or create of the orginal photography work even it is a commission job you have the rights to showcase your talent or use it for your self promotion. But not to release it's right of usage to another parties or any other purpose other then self promotion. You want to know my source let me tell you. From professional photographers whom have doing jobs using media corp artists me included to friends who happen to be lawyers. I am just passing on informations I know. Proof to me you know the stuff. Give us some information, not casing doubt and ask me to proof my points that I have share and say it for the good the communities here.
    Last edited by vince123123; 10th February 2007 at 04:08 AM.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Vince: The fact is that it's not settled, and the law is basically unclear. You're simply taking the conservative position and that's neither more or less correct.

    It's just - conservative.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Who's rights will it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123 View Post
    Huh?????!!
    On this response, vince isn't a lawyer.

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